The Kenpo "knife fantasy" - a deadly dream

[howardr]

I thought I might offer up a few thoughts for discussion on a topic that I think deserves some attention. It was triggered from the recent Knife Techniques In The Kenpo System poll and in particular Mill's knife pictured in a post by Kenpo Yahoo. I went to the Mill's site in order to determine the length of that knife and it was a bit bigger than I had guessed from the Kenpo Yahoo's picture. Well, on to the point of all this...

* It strikes me that there a good number of Kenpo people (and I'm sure more generally, MA people) practice using a knife, such as the Mill's knife mentioned above for use against other people rather than for defensive practice (disarms, etc.).

* It also strikes me that there are a good number of Kenpo people (probably a subset of the above) that actually routinely carry such a weapon on their person, in their car, etc., with the intent to use it in the practiced manner should the relevant situation ever arise.

* Without getting into a detailed discussion of first year Criminal Law (not to mention civil liability), I'm guessing that many of these knife fighting practitioners don't appreciate how unfavorably the criminal justice system looks at a knife wielding individual (even a knife wielding person defending himself). Now certainly the particulars of the situation will determine what will happen, but generally speaking there has to be extremely dire circumstances to warrant the use of the sort of knife AND the sort of knife techniques that I've heard/seen mentioned by Kenpoists over the years.

I ask Kenpo knife carriers and knife fighting practitioners, what are the sort of circumstances that you think would warrant (i.e., would be criminally exculpatory) using a knife against another with said techniques? What sort of situations do you think would not warrant said use?

I'm honestly curious and concerned.

Thanks.

 

[MJS]

You bring up alot of good points. IMO, in order to understand a disarm you also need to know how to fight with the knife. I also train in Arnis, so during my classes, we're constantly working with and against a knife. While that statement might sound strange, think about it this way. It applies to many things in life. If you want to fix something on a car, such as the breaks, dont you think that you should know about a car first? The same thing applies to the knife. If you dont have any idea as to how you might be attacked, how can you possibly do an effective defense?

As for actually using the knife in a situation. Well, a few things to keep in mind. I would think that using only as much force against the attacker as he is using against you, is the best way to go. If he himself is armed, regardless of if its a knife of his own, a bottle, club, etc. your knife can be considered the equalizer so to speak.

Considering the world and society that we live in today, it seems that everybody is sue happy. Regardless of whatever the situation is, you can almost be sure that you'll find yourself in court. Here you have a guy that was trying to rob you, steal your car, maybe rape your wife, and you defend yourself, and what happens? You find yourself getting sued by the very person that was trying to cause YOU the harm!!!! Sounds pretty messed up to me.

IMO, I feel that criminals use a weapon for nothing more than the intimidation factor. For fear of getting cut or shot, you comply with what they want you to do. The same can be said for you using the knife.

Mike

 

[parkerkarate]

You bring up a good poin there many people are getting into knives now, myself included. I now have a Kukari and a Combat Knife (K-Bar). But you also have to talk about the people that carry guns too. As you know in the Kenpo cariculum there are also gun techniques such as Capturing the Rod and Twisted Rod. People do not only carry knives out onto the street, they also cary guns like a few of my instructors. You see alot more stories on the news about people getting shot then stabbed. I do not beleive in them myself but that is a matter of opinion. Just thought I would bring that up.

 

[Cruentus]

I don't study Kenpo.

I am commenting because I always have a knife on me.

Yes, it is true that the circumstance would have to be dire for me to use it. However, I believe that the circumstance would have to be dire for me to use ANY of my self defense techniques, period.
So, if it is believable enough that I might have to someday in the future defend myself, then it is also believable that the circumstance will warrent deadly force, and where I will need my knife. Pretty simple to understand.

Here are some basic rules for using a knife for self defense:

1. Only carry what's legal. A small blade will be just as deadly as a large one in the right hands. Carry what is legal because if you have to use it, you won't have as many questions to answer.

2. Only use a knife if the situation warrents deadly force. A knife is a deadly object, like a gun. Therefore it should be treated as such.

There are other technical tips, but I think that we are discussing the morality/legality issue of carrying.

 

[howardr]

Originally posted by MJS
You bring up alot of good points. IMO, in order to understand a disarm you also need to know how to fight with the knife. I also train in Arnis, so during my classes, we're constantly working with and against a knife. While that statement might sound strange, think about it this way. It applies to many things in life. If you want to fix something on a car, such as the breaks, dont you think that you should know about a car first? The same thing applies to the knife. If you dont have any idea as to how you might be attacked, how can you possibly do an effective defense?

I certainly would not dispute the general idea that you must understand the nature of an attack in order to defend against it properly. (I think that's an area that is sadly lacking in many approaches to Kenpo, but that's a whole 'nother enchilada.) However, what I've witnessed, read about, and heard from various Kenpoists and Kenpo organizations leads me to believe that much of knife study is not merely to understand the attack in order to properly defend. In fact, I get the clear and distinct impression that the offensive "knife work" is (aside from the quite proper defensive use of such training) an end-in-itself.

In other words, fileting a person into ribbons seems to be the goal (or at least one of the more important goals) to knife techniques and practice. Was that not one of the considerations, the immoral and illegal nature of much of these knife fighting techniques, that led Mr. Parker and his son to not publish the extant book, "Speak with a Knife"?

I guess what I'm saying is that learning knife fighting techniques, apart from the purely defensive implications for disarming etc., is really a fantasy (on the order of childhood pining for ninjahood) that if enacted in reality would, aside from wartime or equally dire civil situations, land you in jail for murder and mayhem and penniless to boot. And, further, I think that it can be a dangerous fantasy to foster because it will eventually get someone killed, and someone else in jail. Why else carry a knife if one is not prepared to use it?

In rare and deadly situations one can always (or usually) carry other "equalizers" such as pepper-spray. And, while that is not fool-proof (neither is a knife, a gun, or Kenpo) it might give one enough of an edge to escape, or if necessary physically vanquish without the permanent injury or death that is at the heart of these knife fantasies.

As for actually using the knife in a situation. Well, a few things to keep in mind. I would think that using only as much force against the attacker as he is using against you, is the best way to go. If he himself is armed, regardless of if its a knife of his own, a bottle, club, etc. your knife can be considered the equalizer so to speak.

Interesting, as one might suppose that to be a universally valid approach. That seems just, right? Unfortunately, that may not hold legal water.

Threatening or using a knife against another is generally considered deadly force. Depending on the jurisdication, one might be justified in using deadly force to oppose deadly force, but in other jurisdictions that might land you in jail. The reason is that in some jurisdictions, one has a duty to retreat, if possible, even if faced with deadly force. (There are many other considerations and caveats; this is a just a general proposition.)

Another consideration is that if one disarms a knife wielding attacker and then instinctively shreds the attacker apart with his knife techniques that he's practiced oh so lovingly, then the defender has now become the aggressor and will be prosecuted. Obviously all of this depends upon the exact circumstances, localities, etc. But, the point is it isn't so simple (even as an unarmed defender) as many knife aficionados might suppose.

Something to think about.

ps, I'd love to hear what our resident law enforcement officers have to say on this subject. I'm sure it would be most enlightening.

 

[Cruentus]

I disagree with you completely.

I am an adult male. If I am attacked at all, there is a good chance that my life will be in danger, and lethal force will be needed. If I am not prepared to use lethal force to defend myself, then I am not practicing good self-defense. Period.

A lot of people have CCW permits in my state. If someone trys to harm them and it is justifiable, they can pull their gun and shot that person. They may have a lot of explaining to do, but they will not get thrown in jail if lethal force is proven to have been justified.

You don't need a CCW permit to carry a knife under the legal limit, yet the standards are the same. If lethal force in justified, you can use your knife without legal repricussions.

None of this is fantasy. Its just good self defense.

PAUL

 

[CoolKempoDude]

i saw a middle old man carry a long knife (15 inches long) and walk around in a public place. Swap meet.

nobody amazingly stopped / questioned him. He hang this knife on his right leg.

he didn't hide it. Everybody can see it. It was right there

 

[psi_radar]

I used to carry a knife for self defense, but don't anymore due to the legal and moral reasons you mentioned plus a couple others which I'll describe in a minute. I've switched over to carrying a collapsable baton when I feel like carrying anything at all. I'll admit that I've made an assumption that the law would look more kindly on the baton--I'd be curious to hear the reality.

I do, however, train in empty hand tactics against a knife--Kenpo (techniques I don't like) and Systema (much better, in my opinion). And it's good to know the characteristics of the knife and be familiar with ithe offensive side of it even when you don't plan on using one yourself.

I find knives in general, and particularly the tactical folder to be largely an impractical weapon. It takes time to deploy and is extremely short-range. This goes both ways--the only time a knife attacker really has an advantage over you is in very close, confined quarters. If he's already got the drop on you in this scenario, if he's going to cut you, then you probably won't want to spend precious time fumbling for your knife and you're back to fighting empty-handed. In an open area, I'm confident my adrenalin and speedy feet could get me out of range pretty quickly. Additionally, he probably won't want to run after you slashing as he goes, drawing attention to himself. If he looks like he just wants my money, I'll give it to him.

If I've got time but I'm still cornered, say for some reason on the other side of a large locked room, I could still draw a baton or use an improvised weapon. As an example, on a plane, a rolled-up in-flight magazine and a jacket.

Ok, I'm waiting for the blowback.

 

[CoolKempoDude]

knife techniques in kenpo/kempo is really interesting and it would be nice to see more people participate in this topic. Excellence topic i must say.

the question here is how close you want your knife attacker to be close ???

if he is close enough and you are not fast enough, you are death.

Japanese sword is considered another extended knife ????

defending against long knife and short knife is different.

somebody here mentioned about another *system*. I would like to know how they defend knife attack ????

 

[psi_radar]

The "system" I referred to was Systema, which is a russian martial art, also referred to as...you guessed it, Russian Martial Art. I recommend going to www.russianmartialart.com and checking out their video clips. I'm not good at it yet but I've seen people who can just rip it. It's different than any other martial art I've seen, but if I was forced to describe it in those terms, I'd say it's like a blend of Aikido and American Kenpo--though there are no set techniques, forms or sets.

The knife stuff (and I'm being really basic here since I'm not that experienced with it) is trained using avoidance with a flexible body and intuiting your opponent's moves, and in kenpo terms, contact manipulation with the knife itself, trapping it or redirecting it with your body (on it, not in it, at least that's the plan) which is often on the midsection. At higher levels, live blades are used, in the beginning, trainers and dulled knives are suitable. Basically you're working with your opponents movements to defeat him. As I reread this I can tell I'm not doing it justice. Go to the Web site and you'll see what I mean. I'm going to a seminar with Vlad all weekend. Can't wait.

As for Kenpo's knife techniques, I feel they're too complex and don't match the level of spontaneity and danger associated with the knife's characteristics. I love most of Kenpo, but I think that's one place it falls short.

 

[howardr]

Originally posted by PAUL
I disagree with you completely.

I am an adult male. If I am attacked at all, there is a good chance that my life will be in danger, and lethal force will be needed.

That your life was in danger is something that the police, prosecutor and jury of your peers will decide.

A lot of people have CCW permits in my state. If someone trys to harm them and it is justifiable, they can pull their gun and shot that person. They may have a lot of explaining to do, but they will not get thrown in jail if lethal force is proven to have been justified.

You don't need a CCW permit to carry a knife under the legal limit, yet the standards are the same. If lethal force in justified, you can use your knife without legal repricussions.

None of this is fantasy. Its just good self defense.

PAUL

First of all, such a blanket statement is not true. You cannot make the generalization that "if someone tries to harm them and it is justifiable, they can pull their gun and shoot that person." What does "and it is justifiable," mean in that sentence? It is NOT true that if someone is trying to harm another that on that fact alone deadly force is warranted. It's just that sort of cavalier attitude that will land you in jail and another in the morgue. Regarding your statement that "if lethal force is justified, you can use your knife without legal repercussions," please consider the following...

Generally self-defense (here as a justified homicide) requires:
1. An honest and reasonable belief that a person is coming at defendant with an imminent deadly attack.
2. The actor responded reasonably, i.e., force was necessary.

The requirement to retreat:
1. A majority of jurisdictions (35 states) say that if defendant is free from fault that he can stand his ground. Whether a defendant is free from fault is often in dispute in these sort of cases.
2. The remaining minority of jurisdictions (15 states) want you to retreat if it is safe to do so (even if you are not at fault). If it is not safe to do so, then you don't to retreat.
a. if you are in your home you don't have to retreat. This is known as the Castle Doctrine (think of your home as your castle, and a man shouldn't have to relinquish his castle).

Other possibilities:
1. If the belief that a person is coming at defendant with an imminent deadly attack is honest but unreasonable then this is voluntary manslaughter. Again, whether deadly force was necessary in the circumstances is also often in dispute in these events.
2. Situations where defendant sought justification defense but was not free from fault (a topic onto itself).

Remember, as I said above, as much as you feel justified in using deadly force in what you thought was self-defense, that is not enough legally. That is both a matter of law and of fact, which will be determined by other people: the police who are naturally and quite reasonably suspicious (after all everybody says they did it in self-defense, and you're holding the bloody knife), prosecutors who are not necessarily looking for justice but rather racking up wins, and the jury (they get nice pretty pictures of the butchered body).

Also consider that in many cases of self-defense there will be no other witnesses (or it might be a he said-he said if your attacker survives, or possibly even hostile witnesses). Then one factor (out of many others) will be your story. When the jury hears the prosecutor describe and then show pictures of the sliced up "victim" that will go a long way toward undermining your own version as an innocent.

Just some things to think about.

 

[MJS]

A few things to look at here. Howard, you mentioned knife vs. knife in this quote:

Another consideration is that if one disarms a knife wielding attacker and then instinctively shreds the attacker apart with his knife techniques that he's practiced oh so lovingly, then the defender has now become the aggressor and will be prosecuted. Obviously all of this depends upon the exact circumstances, localities, etc. But, the point is it isn't so simple (even as an unarmed defender) as many knife aficionados might suppose.

Something to look at here. When talking about the disarms, what I really happening here is not a disarm, but rather an attack on the arm. Paul and I both come from a FMA background. There are many limb destructions in the FMA's. Rather than blocking a punch, you attack the arm. Same thing applies here. You're taking your knife and attacking his arm. This is called defanging the snake in the FMA.

I agree with Paul here. Keep in mind, that its THIS guy whos attacking you. I'm going to do what I have to do to survive the situation. Heres something else to look at. Its 2am. You're sleeping and you hear the sound of glass breaking. You realize that someone might be breaking into your house. I dont know about you, but I'm gonna pick up whatever I can, be it a stick, gun if I had one in the house, a knife, chair or whatever, and I'm gonna use it!! After all, who broke into whos house here??? I'll tell ya, the judge and jury would have to be pretty messed up in the head to not side with the victime here. I have no idea if this guy is armed or not, and I'm not waiting until its too late to find out. Sure, if it goes to trial, its gonna look like excessive force when they find out you hit this guy over the head with a chair. Yeah ok, but I'm supposed to let this guy kill me, rape my wife, and rob my house??? I dont think so. You hear it all the time when a cop shoots someone. The aholes family says, "Why did they have to shoot him in the chest? How come they didnt shoot his leg?" Come on people. They are trained to shoot center mass, not try to hit someone in the leg while they're moving. Maybe, just maybe if this dirtbag stopped and listened to the cop, their dirtbag son would still be alive to tell about it, right??

A cop leaves the house, and it could very well be the last time they see their family. They do what they have to do in order to come home safe at the end of the shift. If someone is stupid enough to attack someone trained in the arts, then IMO, they get what they deserve. PERIOD!!!

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Empty hand Vs. knife strategies...

#1. Run. By far the best option, and prefered if you are able too. You have the best chance of survival if you can run.

#2. Do something right away that will disable the knife. An immediate disarm of the knife, an immediate interception and control of the knife hand, or an immediate attack resulting in the attacker being completely immobilized would be an example. The problem with this is you can't screw this up at all; if you do, your chances of being cut to pieces rise dramatically. Furthermore, this requires a committed attack; the less committed and telegraphed, the less likely your chances of pulling this off. And finally, to do this option requires an extreme amount of proficiency on your part.

The biggest problem with this is that no matter how much you have trained, a sharp blade will always cut your flesh on contact, but your technique will not always work on contact. He has a sure thing in his hand, where as your technique is neer a sure thing. This is how the odds are always against you, no matter how trained you are.

#3. Dodge and evade until you can run or grab something to aid you in your defense. This is preferable if you are not trained well, and you can't run. It is also your only option if #2 fails (and you can't run). You can always try #2 again, but remember that your chances of being cut are greater with each failed attempt, and they weren't in your favor to begin with. Problem with this is that once again, the longer your in the situation, the greater your chances of being cut. Furthermore, he can close on you faster then you can retreat just like he can win a running race against you if you run backwards while he runs forwards. Also, action is faster then reaction. Another disadvantage is that if you are able to pick something up, chances are it won't be lethal enough to stop him, thus prolonging the incident and greatening your odds of being cut.

This solution is extremely problamatic, but must be used if it is all that is available to you.

#4 Spaz out, rush in on him, and barade him with attacks while you are trying to control his knife or subdue him. This isn't quite the same as #2. #2 means your first move immediately subdues his ability to cut you; This is more of a rush where you are trying to overwhelm him with attacks. If you are trained, this may be a better option for you then #3, but this one is even more problamatic then the first three options. Even if you are trained well, you have put yourself in a spot where you will either overcome your attacker, or die trying, period. With #2 your attacker is subdued, with #3 you are at least buying yourself time for an escape, or for an object in your hand that will put the odds in your favor. By rushing in with every technique you know to stop him, you have no chance of surviving if you are not successful. Even if you are successful, you will most likely take serious wounds in the process.

This is not recomended, and definatily not as a 1st choice. If you try to run and are unsucessful, you can try options 2-4. If you try option #2, you may be able to try another option if your not dead. If you try #3, you may be able to survive with only non fatal cuts as you buy yourself time to run or subdue. With this option, option 4, failure assures your death. Retreating to another option is not really possible with this choice.

#5. Stand there and let your attacker kill you. This is an option, but it is not a good choice for anyone.


I wrote this before, and it was discussed a little here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12302

 

[MJS]

Good points Paul!!:asian:

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

If you can't deploy your tool, then it is useless! This goes for knives, guns, pepper spray, hand gernades (lol) or whatever you want to carry.

I read in this thread that someone said that tactical folder were not a viable choice for a weapon because of deployment issues. This is a common falacy that many people believe.

FACT: ALL weapons have deployment issues.

FACT: If an attacker has the drop on you, you won't have the time to pull your weapon first REGARDLESS of what you carry.

FACT: with little training, a tactical folder can be deployed faster then a properly holstered gun. A tactical folder can also be pulled faster then digging in your pockets or fumbling with your keys to get to your pepper spray, to pull off the safety tab, to deploy the pepper spray. There are very few weapons that are faster to deploy (from the secured carrying position) then a tactical folder, with the exeption of a fixed blade in a kydex sheath.

Carrying a knife is not for everyone, but these are some facts that are largely misunderstood about carrying the knife vs. any weapon. The bottom line is that for ANY weapon to be useful, it has to be in your hand.

Also, regarding legalities; an easily deployable blade under the legal limit (3 1/2 inches in most counties) is much more acceptable to have (particularly if it looks like a work tool) then a collapsable batton, tazer, or pepper spray. You will often get into more trouble, depending on your state laws, for carrying these other weapons, then carrying a "work tool" like a knife. Example; here in Michigan, Collapsable batons are illegal. In Michigan, I would be legally better off pulling a 3 1/2 inch blade then a batton.

Now, one thing that is neglected in training is that people (including myself sometimes) don't practice deployment of their self defense tool. This goes for any tool. With little practice, I find that you can greatly reduce your reaction time for pulling your blade. Furthermore, with enough practice pulling a knife will become muscle memory, so you'll have no problems deploying under stress.

Another neglected idea is drawing your folder while your being attacked, or in the middle of a confrontation. Example: he strikes, you execute a parry while simultaniously taking your folder out of your pocket; you then strike with the closed folder butt end on his limb or head, stunning him, giving you time to pop open your folder. These ideas can be improved with training.

THE MOST NEGLECTED IDEA yet, though, is this: if you are aware (and as a martial arts person you should be), the attacker won't have the drop on you putting you at that level of danger where you can't deploy a weapon. Chances are you will know that something is going to happend before it does. Your gut instinct, as well as logical signs will tell you this. Hopefully you be able to use your instinct to avoid an attack. But, bottom line is, when you smell trouble, your weapon goes in your hand in a concealed manner. If you follow this rule, chances are you will never be in a situation where your attacker has the drop on you and you can't deploy your weapon.

Here is an article on carrying knives. The story in the beginning isn't very good, but the advise on carrying is: http://www.realfighting.com/1001/knife.htm

 

[Cruentus]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=4155#post4155

Arnisador posted from a WWII combatives manual the general feeling regarding "knife disarms." THis isn't ment to be discouraging, because knife disarms are possabilities. Yet, the moral is: if you go against a blade, you MUST be prepared to be cut!!

PAUL

 

[Cruentus]

Another relevent link...what are the knife laws in your state?

http://pw1.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm

 

[Cruentus]

I can't access "blade forums" from my work computer anymore, so I'll try to remember how this was broken down by a military/police trainer over there. Essentially it goes like this...if you can prove these 3 things in a court of law, you are justified in using lethal force:

1. The attacker has the means to perminently disable or kill you.

2. The attacker has the opportunity to perminantly disable or kill you.

3. The attacker expresses intent to perminantly disable or kill you.

So, if I am outside a bar, and someone follows me out with a broken bottle, corners me near my car, yells something nasty, and attacks me with the bottle...guess what? I can legally pull out my gun and shoot him, or pull my knife and kill him. I don't have to prove "I tried to run" or "I gave him my wallet" or what ever. I don't have to run, or give him my wallet, legally speaking (even though this may show the police and the court my intent). If I can prove that the above three factors were present, I can use lethal force.

Now, I recommend that we all be prudent with our self defense. Example, even if I have a folder on me, I'll try running away from my attacker unless my family or property is in danger, or unless running would be a useless action (cornered, or in a desolate area). Yet, it is poor self defense to sacrifice your own safety of getting out alive for the sake of prudence. If lethal force is present it is your right and DUTY to defend yourself.

I maintain my stance that if the proper legalities are followed, knives are useful self defense tools.

 

[Cruentus]

Sorry for all the repeat posts, but I think that there are some serious falicies going on over here regarding knife defense. Hopefully the info I am presenting will dispel some of the myths.

The last thing I wanted to mention is this: How will you ever expect to understand "the knife culture" or a knife wielding attacker if you never train with knives yourself?

I am of the personal opinion that every martial artist should train at least a few times with a knife, and shoot a few times with a firearm. WHY? Because it is difficult to understand the mentality of a knife or gun attacker, and even more difficult to understand how to defend against one unless you learn how the weapon is at least handles by these attackers.

O.K....that is most of what I have to say. I know its a lot, but I hope I was able to dispel at least some myths. Yet, I'll be reading your responses. I doubt I'll respond much more then this, though. The reason is, much of what I have said here really isn't open to arguement.

PAUL
:asian:

 

[psi_radar]

Yet, I'll be reading your responses. I doubt I'll respond much more then this, though. The reason is, much of what I have said here really isn't open to arguement.

Paul,
Hee hee, says you. You make a lot of good points, most of which I'll agree with, but I stand firm on one or two points you debated.

I'll agree with you that folding knives can be deployed quickly with enough practice, fixed blades even faster. And they're cool, I own a SOG Vision that's just awesome as a tool and sharp as a razor. BUT, if I had warning of an attack, such as glass breaking in the middle of the night at my home, I'd probably go with trusty Mr. 12 gauge, or at least a weapon with a longer range than my arm + 3 1/2 inches.

Also, if I was out in the open, if I have time to draw a knife, I also have time to turn my butt and start trucking. Why would I want to engage in a contest with another nasty dude holding a very sharp piece of metal, a contest that only ends when one of us bleeds out into unconsciousness or a vital organ is penetrated? I'll concede that fight and get out of there.

In closed quarters, I still don't think the safest move would be to draw my own knife given the lack of time. I'd rather use an environmental weapon as shield or missile and again, buy time to run or attack when the knifer tries to close distance, if he's not already on top of me, in which case we're back to empty hand anyway.

I disagree that an aware martial artist will never "get the drop" laid on him. Everyone is susceptible at one point or another, whether it's just a lapse in attention, sensory overload, or just plain craftiness on the part of the attacker. If you've found some kind of link to the Force, please let me know, I'll pay top dollar.

I appreciate all the links you listed. One thing you might not have considered is that not all attacks with knives are as committed as the ones you might see on the battlefield, in prison or in Phillipine death matches. The knife attacks I've been witness to and heard about as a result of crime were almost halfhearted. This is not always the case, but something to think about. In these instances everyone survived and in hindsight, they could have avoided trouble entirely.