Weapon Techniques

[Kenpo Yahoo]

{I also posted this on the Kenponet forum}

The other day I was talking to a friend about some of the weapons techniques found in kenpo. He and I disagreed in a few areas, so it made the conversation a little more interesting. Anyway, I thought I would throw this out to see what some of the different views might be.

What do you think about the kenpo weapon techniques (i.e. defenses against an armed assailant)? What do you think about the prescribed attack and the effectiveness of the subsequent response? Do you feel that you could execute the techniques with a high enough degree of skill to keep yourself from danger? Do you have a technique that you think is great, or maybe one that you just can't stand?

You can choose from any of the techniques available in the kenpo arsenal (if you choose something not in the general kenpo curriculum please describe it). Oh yeah, and just to keep everyone on track please don't say,"I would just shoot the guy," you could do that without training in the martial arts. Pick any of the weapons knife, stick, and/or gun. My friend and I have a few view points that appear to be diametrically opposed to one another. So any info, insight, or stories that you can share would be appreciated.

Respectfully,
Kenpo Yahoo

p.s. Sorry I can't tell you what my opinion is just yet, I don't want to taint the responses. Besides this is more about the general Kenpo population, than it is about me.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I have an open offer to a local Kenpo school to try the Gun disarms against me. I'd be using a paintball pistol. (slower firing, less impact) than a real gun.

So far, no takers willing to risk a hellava welt.

Speaks wonders for their confidence in their techniques, I think.

:asian:

 

[Robbo]

Unless you knew you were going to be shot, you would be a fool to try a gun self defense technique. Just give the person whatever they want. If at some point you realize that you will be shot at no matter what and running isn't a option, what have you got to lose?

Rob

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I have an open offer to a local Kenpo school to try the Gun disarms against me. I'd be using a paintball pistol. (slower firing, less impact) than a real gun.

So far, no takers willing to risk a hellava welt.

Speaks wonders for their confidence in their techniques, I think.

:asian:

If you ever get a chance to come to Pasadena, I would love to take you up on the offer. I've done that a few times with live weapons and no real ammo, and with plastic bullets. Can't say I used a standard ideal Kenpo technique but they worked. The bigger question is, are you willing to accept the damage inflicted as well?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Klondike93]

So far I've only done a few club disarms in kenpo and they're all from an ideal phase. I did go to a Al McLuckie seminar on Filipino stick and knife work where we did some stick and knife disarms.
But most of my knife disarms so far have been in Systema, and I think they're quite effective, just not by me right now. I'm looking forward to the kenpo ones so I can compare between the two.

I have an open offer to a local Kenpo school to try the Gun disarms against me. I'd be using a paintball pistol. (slower firing, less impact) than a real gun.

I wouldn't mind trying it, with a vest of course to lessen the welt, just to see how well any of them work.


:asian:

 

[Kenpo Wolf]

Trying kenpo pistol disarms with paintball pistol sounds like a cool idea, but dont forget a thick vest AND a mask. Our school did the disarms with ink filled squirt guns

 

[Klondike93]

I like the ink filled squirt gun idea.



:asian:

 

[satans.barber]

Some are decidedly better than others it has to be said.

Defenses against a thrusting weapon (be it a stick or blade) such as Clipping the Storm I think are pretty good, striking the muscle groups if done correctly should have the desired effect.

The defenses against the overhead attacks are a bit more mediochre, things like Capturing the Storm and Evading the Storm would leave you with a split skull if you didn't do them correctly, I prefer something where you're getting right out of the way of the strike and if you fluff up the hand movements if doesn't make that much of a difference (such as Clipping the Storm, or to use an unarmed example the start of Circling Destruction).

The defenses against the swinging attacks are a lot worse, people would strike with the end of the stick with an extremely fast whipping motion, there's no way you'd get chance to step inside of the arm and block it as in Defying the Storm or Securing the Storm. However the ones where, again, you get right out of the way of the initial strike such as Returning the Storm and then move in are a bit better.

Of course, all these ones take on a new meaning if you have a weapon to fight back with/block with such as a stick, but for open hand to weapon defences I question the effectiveness of some of them at high/full speed. It's difficult to train realistically without hurting people though!

As for gun defenses, as I said somewhere else it's ridiculous. People who knew what they were doing would be out of reach, and could shoot you before you were in reach.

Ian.

 

[Blindside]

When we do defenses against clubs I really advocate "crashing" in on the attacker, it isn't pretty but it negates the club pretty fast, it also gets us kenpo guys to our optimum range. We arm the attacker with foamed PVC clubs and let them go at it. If the initial swing misses then you enter. I also think that charging the guy with the club is going to surprise the attacker on the street.

I prefer the defenses I learned in FMA for knife work, though there are a couple of kenpo defenses that are pretty good, though the majority of the ones that I have learned I'm not really happy with. I think I like the FMA defenses because they assume that your opponent actually knows what to do with a knife, and isn't going to pose for you after he thrusts, or do the straight arm psycho attack.

Guns; well I guess the assumption is that the person isn't standing 10 feet away with the gun pointed at your chest. They are predicated on mugging situations where they are poking you at close range, or are going to draw. If they are that far away from you and they haven't shot yet, the statistics say to run, most people are bad shots. Have you guys seen the airsoft guns? They are realistic looking, leave a good welt, and you can run paintballs (they are smaller paintballs than the 68caliber paintball guns). You can get them pretty cheap now, I've got one on my "to buy" list of training gear.

Lamont

 

[Robbo]

I have an open offer to a local Kenpo school to try the Gun disarms against me. I'd be using a paintball pistol. (slower firing, less impact) than a real gun.

I wonder if you'd be willing to take the consequences if they actually did pull off the technique?



Rob

 

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I have an open offer to a local Kenpo school to try the Gun disarms against me. I'd be using a paintball pistol. (slower firing, less impact) than a real gun.

So far, no takers willing to risk a hellava welt.

Speaks wonders for their confidence in their techniques, I think.

:asian:

Actually that sounds kinda fun. I will have to see if the guys at the dojo are willing to shoot me. hehehehe. To bad you are so far away. Glock actually makes a marker gun that shoots rubber or paint The blue gun I think this would be a fun dojo tool. Too bad your so far away Kaith.

Michael

 

[Chronuss]

my personal favorite is Raining Lance. this technique is lightning fast when executed and can cause serious damage. I mean come on, first you stab them with their own weapon, club their floater rib, crack the adam's apple, grab their jewels, then pinch their eyes. as if this isn't enough, you bring over your knee, theoretically break their back, smash the adam's apple again, then put their right jaw where the left is. this technique is pure Kenpo, independent motion and economy of motion are found in this entire technique. and thinking about it while I'm typing, almost all of the counter offenses are center-lined, going right down the primary meridian of the oppenent's body. I just think this technique kicks all kinds of :cuss:.

 

[brianhunter]

never say never......not to insult anyones intelligence but some need to try and see these things in the real world. Get ahold of training videos from police shootings, dash cameras, wildest police videos etc...these guys all needed some kind of techniques because it was fight or die. You will see some of these guys use basic concepts and they made it out alive...this Kenpo stuff does work!!

The techniques where designed for a reason, its up to you to develop the concepts and applications. They are good sound techniques with solid well thought out principles and they will work to one extent or the other. As to the studio challenge..you already have the edge, you KNOW the person your holding the gun on is going to attempt a disarm. Most street thugs if its car jacking, mugging, whatver dont expect someone to try to disarm them, they are expecting complete compliance then maybe killing you afterwards for being so cooperative, it does happen guys....and depending on your environment you might not have much to loose.

I have been to several training seminars and classes on surviving edged weapons and armed attackers in my short law enforcement career believe it or not alot of the base techniques we learned have a ton of the same concepts as techniques like capturing the rod just not as complicated.....sometimes in these situations there is no flight only fight and I hope to God I have every tool concept or principle to survive this in my head somewhere. Alot of the principles are universal and work well when given a real world application its up to you to find it. Take care guys and be safe out there techniques work...one way or another they will get you home.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

So far we've come up with training with foam clubs and knifes and using paint guns to practice the firearms techniques (I'm gonna look into that Blue Gun thing... sounds pretty cool). We had several individuals identify their favorite techniques (clipping the storm, raining lance, etc.).

After looking through some of the weapons defenses, do you think that AK offers a realistic option to the practitioner? Do the gun defenses take into account guns like the semi-auto pistol which has become so popular over the last couple of decades (I don't know, that's why I'm asking)? Several of the techniques have you grabbing the gun to control it. If the gun were a six-shooter, you would be able to fire one round only (because the cylinder wouldn't turn to load the next shot), but with a semi-auto you could fire the entire clip (unless you got a finger stuck in the slide. Either way your going to get burned by the gas (although comparitively it's a small price to pay). Is there a better way to deal with this situation?

What about the knife techniques? According to the department of justice most knife fatalities are from repeated stabbings in the short held position (blade protruding from the bottom of your fist), unfortunately most are from people that the victim knew but that's a different post all together. Other than raining lance, which has you stepping to the left, there aren't any other overhead techniques. What if you can't step to the left (maybe your out of position or there's something obstructing your movement). What about knife techniques against an attacker who's in the mount position (probably more prevalent in a rape situation).

Most of the club techniques are against overhead stepthrough attacks. I hate to say that I've never seen anyone strike from overhead, yeah sure it was a beer bottle but I think that qualifies as a club. So why do we have all these techniques against overhead assualts?

Any responses will be appreciated. Please know upfront that I'm not trying to start a crazed argument, rather I just want to know why we do things the way we do. Any good scientist will ask why from time to time. Since kenpo is the ultimate blend of art and science I think that it's important for us to do the same.

Respectfully

 

[Chronuss]

well, just like you say, most of the techniques are for over the head club strikes (e.g.: broken beer bottle, knife, pool cue, ball bat, etc.) these are common weapons that people will grab or have with them in common situations. think about the drunk guy that's gonna do a big, big roundhouse punch that's gonna take three weeks to make it to it's destination, hell, I could go have a cigarette and wait for the punch to get there. we have all these techniques against the same thing simply so you have options for variables such as space, environment, and surrounding people. if you start one technique, you can graft into another depending on the juxtaposition of the variables. you could do Checking The Storm just as well as Raining Lance against an over the head attack, it just depends on timing and surroundings.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I don't know that you could use overhead club techniques against a Norman Bates type attack, seeing as how the blade is poking out the bottom. Your wrist and/or forearm would be pretty messed up.

 

[Stick Dummy]

Chronuss,


Talk to me next time I stumble into your dojo - Monday7/08???

I'm sure that Seig knows where this one is going to leade, and it'll be more fun than the "Blue Ball" drill - PROMISE


now where did I put that soothing whale music???????

 

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by Stick Dummy

Chronuss,


Talk to me next time I stumble into your dojo - Monday7/08???

I'm sure that Seig knows where this one is going to leade, and it'll be more fun than the "Blue Ball" drill - PROMISE


now where did I put that soothing whale music???????

Oh Doomed I say~!!! Hey Pete.. Chronuss didn't get to experience the "Blue Ball drill.~!! His dad was having surgery that day. sooo guess he needs a heads-up on that one.. He was rather pouty when I told him what he missed

Monday eh.. *pokes Seig.. do tell.. ~!! Rats.. He's sleeping.. ~!
Guess I better get out my Combat armor for Monday by the sound of it~!

 

[Stick Dummy]

Time to break in that APD.....................

(insert sinister laugh here)

 

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

I don't know that you could use overhead club techniques against a Norman Bates type attack, seeing as how the blade is poking out the bottom. Your wrist and/or forearm would be pretty messed up.

well, for starters, rule number one when being confronted with someone with a knife: you ARE going to get cut, but you can choose where it is. I'd rather get cut on my forearm than my noggin', why?, simply because there are NO vital nerves in the forearem. it is simply muscle. number two, a technique like Raining Lance and Checking The Storm are designed for the Norman Bates type of attack, with the knife blade jutting down from the closed hand.

Raining Lance is an awesome defense against a knife attacker, it has you restabbing the oppenent with his own knife and such, quite a good tech.