WC/WT sparring

[Nabakatsu]

Found some new wc sparring full contact videos, if you read the comments it's clear most people think it's either crap wc/wt or that it's hardly even wc/wt... anyways, keep hearing things like, wc/wt falls apart under pressure ect ect, I'm curious to hear your thoughts and opinions of this.

there are like 10 other wc vids from the same user. enjoy!

 

[mook jong man]

I should really have stopped watching after seeing that there was no semblance of a stance.
There seems to be a lack of basic technique , I think it would serve them well to put the sparring gear away and work on their stance and other basics for a couple of years.

It seems to me that it is a perfect case of throwing people in at the deep end without them having the required theoretical knowledge or having developed their practical ability.

So indeed their structure will fall apart under pressure because they had no structure to begin with , in all honesty it looks like they were beginners who did a couple of lessons and were told " Here you go , put the gear on and do your best ".

There has to be logical progressions in the training before students are allowed to spar like that , like the Lat Sau drills you were talking about on the other thread.

Through the use of specialised exercises and drills and a lot of vigorous chi sau sparring the stance and the hand structures become embedded or if you like second nature .

Once the student becomes proficient , the exercise is tweaked so that he is put under more pressure ie more powerful strikes , more faster strikes or randomness.

This ramping up of the intensity is a process that is repeated many times , each time the student must show that he can maintain stance , keep the structure , demonstrate good reflex , correctness of technique etc.

Only then do you ramp it up again , indeed the skill in teaching is to get the student to push the envelope only slightly.
Too easy and the student gets bored and is not challenged , too hard and the student gets flustered , freaks out and coordination is lost.

In closing I think it does a disservice to the Wing Chun / Wing Tsun community for schools to put videos out like the ones shown.
Either show two high level practitioners or don't put anything out at all.

 

[Nabakatsu]

well said sir!
A shame more high level students didn't throw up sparring videos more often!

 

[mook jong man]

Yeah it would be good from an educational stand point , but you don't want to give too many of your trade secrets away either to all and sundry.
If your in a decent school you probably would have already had an opportunity to witness first hand your senior instructors sparring anyway.

 

[mook jong man]

I just found this clip from my old school , it shows a bit of sparring from a first level grading.

The guy in the short sleeves is playing the part of the attacker and the other bloke is the Wing Chun man.

Now I grant you the guy is no shining example of Wing Chun technique and personally I believe he needed a lot more work before he was sent off to attempt the grading , but thats another story.

But nevertheless he does maintain a semblance of a stance and stays grounded most of the time , tries to dominate the centreline and uses aggressive forward pressure etc.

 

[CRCAVirginia]

The stance work was not the problem. This is what most WC will look like when sparring. The taller guy had the advantage because of reach. Without head movement, body shots and use of hooks, uppercuts, and clinching, and better circling footwork the straight punches were killing the smaller guy. As long as there is no fear of someone shooting in for a takedown, a fighter can just charge in.

 

[zepedawingchun]

In the fight with the short guy and the tall guy, from what I saw, the short guy was too busy bouncing around and not holding his WC stance and hand positions. Also, he didn’t protect his center, centerline or central line (mother line) very well. He also got away from his basic WC ideas (principles, theories, concepts) and did boxing. The tall guy just tried to run in on him and execute battle punch after battle punch. Neither one of them looked like they were interested in actually protecting themselves, rather they were content to trade blows with each other.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with most of the WC sparring you see on the net is everyone is too determined to just run in, straight blast, and get the first hit advantage, without regard for their safety. They believe you only have to battle punch (or chain punch, whatever you may call it) and they will control the fight. That is why most of the clips you see look like very sloppy boxing with no structure, stance, and positions to speak of. They are in a hurry with too much flailing or swinging of the arms (punching) and not enough structure to their hand positions to allow intercepting, zoning, parrying, redirection, and footwork. Everyone forgets the adage of what we call ‘mo tom sic’ (no greedy style). Wing Chun is about self defense, initially you have to wait for your attacker and counter to get the upper hand (correct timing). Then, when you have control of the center (by possibly trapping with good position and timing), you overpower your opponent with punches, kicks, parries and the unending attacks.

 

[mook jong man]

The stance work was not the problem. This is what most WC will look like when sparring. The taller guy had the advantage because of reach. Without head movement, body shots and use of hooks, uppercuts, and clinching, and better circling footwork the straight punches were killing the smaller guy. As long as there is no fear of someone shooting in for a takedown, a fighter can just charge in.

I have to strongly disagree , I don't know what lineage of Wing Chun you study , but in my lineage stance is paramount and bouncing around and having a high center of gravity does not conform to Wing Chun principles.

There is also a raft of other basic errors that were committed and these have been outlined already by Zepedawingchun.

If the practitioners are trained properly and have the basics drilled into them it does not degenerate into a form of sloppy kickboxing , it becomes more like one kick to bridge the gap and then a chi sau sparring battle with low kicks until the one with better chi sau manages to break through the defences.

Without a stance the Wing Chun man cannot hope to manipulate the balance of a larger opponent because the power comes from the stance and is transmitted out through the arms to attack the opponents center of balance and thus keeping him always on the backfoot and unable to mount a counter attack.

There are a few more things that must be adhered to but that is the general crux of the matter.

I will refer again to the video I posted before , keep in mind one guy is playing the attacker and the other is the Wing Chun guy.
He needs some reflex work but he does manage to keep his stance and stay sunk down most of the time.

 

[Tensei85]

Found some new wc sparring full contact videos, if you read the comments it's clear most people think it's either crap wc/wt or that it's hardly even wc/wt... anyways, keep hearing things like, wc/wt falls apart under pressure ect ect, I'm curious to hear your thoughts and opinions of this.

there are like 10 other wc vids from the same user. enjoy!

To be honest, good or crappy or anything in between is to me not so much an issue as the Wing Chun pract's in the clips are atleast putting themselves on the line as opposed to a lot of side line practitioners that comment on these vid's over youtube. (Not talking about you guys lol)

But yea, I can agree with what's mentioned before about training proper basics before attempting to get in the ring & playing rock em sock em robots.

But I still feel theres not near enough pressure testing in the Wing Chun community at large, again not saying everyone obviously, as there are a lot of tremendously good Instructors & practitioners but unfortunately they don't represent the mass as they are the minority in this case.

So I would say kudo's to the Wing Chun guys that put it up & I hope to see more refinement in the future, pretty much the goal of all of us definitely including myself.

But Nab, Mook, Zepeda all you guys brought up some good points so thanks for sharing your knowledge & insights.

 

[mook jong man]

To be honest, good or crappy or anything in between is to me not so much an issue as the Wing Chun pract's in the clips are atleast putting themselves on the line as opposed to a lot of side line practitioners that comment on these vid's over youtube. (Not talking about you guys lol)

But yea, I can agree with what's mentioned before about training proper basics before attempting to get in the ring & playing rock em sock em robots.

But I still feel theres not near enough pressure testing in the Wing Chun community at large, again not saying everyone obviously, as there are a lot of tremendously good Instructors & practitioners but unfortunately they don't represent the mass as they are the minority in this case.

So I would say kudo's to the Wing Chun guys that put it up & I hope to see more refinement in the future, pretty much the goal of all of us definitely including myself.

But Nab, Mook, Zepeda all you guys brought up some good points so thanks for sharing your knowledge & insights.

That is true , they do at least deserve praise for at least putting the gear on and having a go .

For as most of us would know even with the head gear on it still shakes the old brain box around a bit and the headaches afterwards are no fun.

Also considering that some schools I have heard of don't even allow any contact at all , not even to the body in chi sau sparring , that is if they even do any sparring.

I just think that Wing Chun versus Wing Chun sparring is a waste of time , it generally starts off as a clash of legs as both people kick for the centreline and then goes into chi sau sparring with low kicks as the gap is closed.

Your better off just practicing chi sau sparring with head gear on I think , thats what we do sometimes.

Or have one person play the generic streetfighter , boxer , martial artist and the other person plays the Wing Chun guy , I believe this is a better use of your training time rather than Wing Chun vs Wing Chun sparring and you learn to counter attacks from all angles instead of just waiting for it to come down the centreline

I mean realistically speaking what are the chances you are going to be attacked by another Wing Chun guy in the street .

They are not likely to step in with a pak sau and centreline punch , chances are its going to be a tackle , haymaker , head butt or something of that nature.

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . . .I just think that Wing Chun versus Wing Chun sparring is a waste of time , it generally starts off as a clash of legs as both people kick for the centreline and then goes into chi sau sparring with low kicks as the gap is closed..

I agree with this whole heartedly. I found the same results when students sparred each other.

. . . . .Or have one person play the generic streetfighter , boxer , martial artist and the other person plays the Wing Chun guy , I believe this is a better use of your training time rather than Wing Chun vs Wing Chun sparring and you learn to counter attacks from all angles instead of just waiting for it to come down the centreline.

That is how I make my students spar each other. They put on head gear and sparring gloves then one student is permitted to use WC principles, theories, concepts, hand positions and footwork. While the other student uses boxing, kick boxing, wrestling, grappling, etc. but no WC. Since most of my students have prior martial arts training or exposure, it works out pretty good. From that, I'm able to see where they are lacking in skills, ideas, hand positions, or whatever so I can work to improve their WC.

. . . . .I mean realistically speaking what are the chances you are going to be attacked by another Wing Chun guy in the street .

They are not likely to step in with a pak sau and centreline punch , chances are its going to be a tackle , haymaker , head butt or something of that nature.

Mook jong man is right in the fact that we (as WC practitioners) are not likely to have an altercation with another WC practitioner (unless we visit another WC school). So why train only for WC fighters and not the general public or other martial arts systems? Isn't that what we should be doing anyway, expect the best or something different until our opponent proves they are not so skilled? That's what I was told from day one of my WC training.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Wing chun 'sparring' has always been difficult, because the nature of sparring is to test moves that you train regularly in a friendly manner

Chopping someone in the throat, palm striking someones face etc is not really considered friendly. Sure you can control the move but then you have kind of negated the point of the spar!

In Kamon we use feeding techniques which is basically a person throwing in any random attack and getting used to dealing with it
Over time, we add pressure to it (ie opponent can strike back, clinch, kick, etc)

I love being put under pressure. It is an important part of any training. Yet a lot of people see static drills in wing chun and assume that no technique is ever put under any real pressure. Depending on your federation, you may have already performed chi sao against a more aggressive opponent. Whilst I don’t like comparing chi sao to sparring, your techniques are being put under pressure because your opponent can do anything

Putting headguards on and 14oz gloves on to train someones tan sao is never going to work

I do get tired of certain forums where people moan that wing chun doesn’t work. Wing chun is useful. Some people will never be good boxers. They have different body structures or movement which would make boxing etc awkward
I have a student who weighs around 8 stone and is just frail. He has tried bulking up but he just can’t. As a boxer he would struggle. Doing wing chun he can deliver powerful strikes and defend well using structure

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Wing Chun drills are supposed to be used when in close to break people with strikes, manipulations and then strike some more, or put them down.

That is why you close the distance, then strike where it is hard to generate power without Wing Chun training.

That is the general theory.

Yet we have to train against violent "street" attacks if we want to be successful at surviving violent street attacks. If we want to survive in a ring against someone that is going to use sports attacks, then we must train against the sports attacks.

Chi Sao is a great platform to practice the manipulations, strikes, controls, points of reference, etc. that we can use to survive such assaults and counter effectively. it can also train spontaneous attacks when a point of reference is reached, so a destructive sequence can begin.

It is not enough for combat. Realistic drilling using Chi sao as part of a spontaneous practice platform is another thing.

Starting from prearranged attacks with progressive and increasing pressure and realism, you can get used to using the skills that Wing Chun teaches. As with everything, it may be cumbersome at first, yet it will become easier, specially if your training to use correct structure and optimal anatomical movements for your martial applications.

Add to that understanding of the reactions of the body and you can practice Control Manipulations so that the attacker has no choice but to be controlled by you once the action starts. Again, this comes with drills that increase pressure and intent with experience and time. Then scenarios can be built so that a whole self defense situation can be simulated.

Sparring for sport is not the same as sparring for self defense.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado- Robles

 

[qwksilver61]

Exactly what I was afraid of...exa. my friend who trains in the Wah Lum style of Kung Fu...I was just telling him"if you can't fight utilizing the techniques that you have learned..what is the point?" agreed,most fights I have personally witnessed are sloppy fisticuffs,some are tactful fighters..shooting and heading so.for the ground. I suppose that there are some rare and exceptional individuals that adhere to the strictest standards and are not afraid to test the most basic of principals of Wing Tsun.....I am one of those people.while not the most advanced person,I can make the best use of what I have been taught....even in the worst street fight...and I still can manage to beat the crap out of my opponent,wrestler, shoot fighter,boxer....rules and regs. tend to hinder movement,but all in all where is your gwat? your gum? your collapsing bong followed by whisk or sun? where is your footwork? it works for me every time,I saw none of this during this sparring session.no pissing contest just an observation.Wing Tsun was engineered to first take care of the "Wing T opponent" then all else was supposed to be "superficial" at best.Trust what you have been taught,it works.Two cents...

 

[Tensei85]

To me I feel there is to much emphasis placed on what looks like Wing Chun for instance I can utilize a tan da, pak da, gan sau, chum sau, biu sau the list goes on forever to counter such & such. It's more important to understand the concepts & the Wing Chun body mechanics not so much using the trademark techniques to beat the opponent. (Not saying techniques aren't viable obviously, but too much emphasis would be placed on you have to do it this way or that way to look like Wing Chun)

Instead as mentioned before utilize the centerline concept, immovable elbow, mo ying gerk, straight line, hard & soft energies whatever. These are what is important in expressing Wing Chun whereas in most Wing Chun circles we can't even agree on the proper way to perform a "tan sau" Ip Man does it this way, Yuen Kay San does it that way, Pan Nam does it differently, even Pao Fa Lien has a different expression.

So I feel adhering to the concepts & principles of Wing Chun is a must & is what's truly important not so much this technique should be this way, or this footwork should be that way. (But either way when footwork is absent there is a problem lol)

Just wanted to throw that out there, not disagreeing with anyone.

 

[chinaboxer]

To me I feel there is to much emphasis placed on what looks like Wing Chun for instance I can utilize a tan da, pak da, gan sau, chum sau, biu sau the list goes on forever to counter such & such. It's more important to understand the concepts & the Wing Chun body mechanics not so much using the trademark techniques to beat the opponent. (Not saying techniques aren't viable obviously, but too much emphasis would be placed on you have to do it this way or that way to look like Wing Chun)

Instead as mentioned before utilize the centerline concept, immovable elbow, mo ying gerk, straight line, hard & soft energies whatever. These are what is important in expressing Wing Chun whereas in most Wing Chun circles we can't even agree on the proper way to perform a "tan sau" Ip Man does it this way, Yuen Kay San does it that way, Pan Nam does it differently, even Pao Fa Lien has a different expression.

So I feel adhering to the concepts & principles of Wing Chun is a must & is what's truly important not so much this technique should be this way, or this footwork should be that way. (But either way when footwork is absent there is a problem lol)

Just wanted to throw that out there, not disagreeing with anyone.

i agree 100%...that's why i always tell my students to focus on "movement" (concepts & principles) and not "technique" (what it should supposedly look like)

 

[qwksilver61]

OK. so we all agree....at least make use of (stick to) your Wing Tsun/Tzun/Chun principle.Of course nothing is orchestrated,fights are messy,you can still give way,stick to and follow,The core concepts and principles do work. Thank you everyone,I mean that..now we are talking,and learning. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving,God Bless!

 

[KamonGuy2]

Just as an end note.... I think at the end of the day you are going to use anything ina streetfight if it helps you survive. I don't mind a chunner doing tan sao and then throwing a right hook if its going to work.

It might not strictly be wing chun, but not doing it because it isnt strictly chun is silly

Chun does not have the answer to everything. It isnt an ultiomate art. It is a good art that does work in street situations. Yet chunners should not be afraid to use other skills as well

The best example of this is if you get a big guy attacking you and your punches arent powerful enough to stop them. Sure you might say 'I wish Id trained my punches harder etc', but instead of whinging, just slip into a choke and you will stop your opponent! (And no, I didnt steal that from Rocky 3). Sometimes using other techniques is beneficial. It doesnt mean your art is weak, just that you will be a tougher opponent if you master wing chun PLUS another art

 

[Tensei85]

That is true , they do at least deserve praise for at least putting the gear on and having a go .

For as most of us would know even with the head gear on it still shakes the old brain box around a bit and the headaches afterwards are no fun.

Also considering that some schools I have heard of don't even allow any contact at all , not even to the body in chi sau sparring , that is if they even do any sparring.

I just think that Wing Chun versus Wing Chun sparring is a waste of time , it generally starts off as a clash of legs as both people kick for the centreline and then goes into chi sau sparring with low kicks as the gap is closed.

Your better off just practicing chi sau sparring with head gear on I think , thats what we do sometimes.

Or have one person play the generic streetfighter , boxer , martial artist and the other person plays the Wing Chun guy , I believe this is a better use of your training time rather than Wing Chun vs Wing Chun sparring and you learn to counter attacks from all angles instead of just waiting for it to come down the centreline

I mean realistically speaking what are the chances you are going to be attacked by another Wing Chun guy in the street .

They are not likely to step in with a pak sau and centreline punch , chances are its going to be a tackle , haymaker , head butt or something of that nature.

Ya, I definitely agree with your post. However I would like to say its good to have a guy play the generic streetfighter, kickboxer whatever... but its not the same if they don't have the intense training & refinement of body mechanics that comes with serious training of boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, bjj or whatever they are using in the session.

It may give you an idea of what a boxer or what not may look like in a fight but in the end it would be like me trying to portray a Chu ga tong long pract or hwarang do guy or whatever when I don't have any experience in those said systems.

But if you have guys that have that experience than by all means the training is invaluable & of the utmost importance.

Haha, to correct my post before it comes out not the way I planned...
I'm not saying your guys don't have that experience as in the vid I thought they did a great job & a lot was learned in the session as can be imagined.

"But I'm stating the above post as to caution people that think they can use there W.C. sparring skills against fighters that train the arts that they assimilate in sparring sessions without having any real experience in those said arts themselves."

Atleast that's my view, again I'm not countering your's or anyone else's views on this topic just addressing a concern of mine.

Thanks again for another insightful post.

 

[mook jong man]

Ya, I definitely agree with your post. However I would like to say its good to have a guy play the generic streetfighter, kickboxer whatever... but its not the same if they don't have the intense training & refinement of body mechanics that comes with serious training of boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, bjj or whatever they are using in the session.

It may give you an idea of what a boxer or what not may look like in a fight but in the end it would be like me trying to portray a Chu ga tong long pract or hwarang do guy or whatever when I don't have any experience in those said systems.

But if you have guys that have that experience than by all means the training is invaluable & of the utmost importance.

Haha, to correct my post before it comes out not the way I planned...
I'm not saying your guys don't have that experience as in the vid I thought they did a great job & a lot was learned in the session as can be imagined.

"But I'm stating the above post as to caution people that think they can use there W.C. sparring skills against fighters that train the arts that they assimilate in sparring sessions without having any real experience in those said arts themselves."

Atleast that's my view, again I'm not countering your's or anyone else's views on this topic just addressing a concern of mine.

Thanks again for another insightful post.

No worries mate , you definitely are making a good point.
It doesn't matter how much I pretend to be like Mike Tyson I'm never going to be able to throw a punch like him ( though I still could bite your ear off in the clinch lol . )

Its just that at our academy a lot of people seem to have to come from some other style , they got fed up with what they were doing and decided to give Wing Chun a try , so we were pretty lucky in that regard.
Could also be that over here in Australia we are not allowed to carry weapons so martial arts are quite popular.

I remember one of my senior instructors was a south pacific TKD champion , he could trap your hands in chi sau and drop an axe kick on your shoulder which I always thought was a nice party trick.

But at the end of the day you have to do the best with the people you've got , and every other martial art style would face the same problem too.

They all would tend to train in a little bit of a bubble unless they have a few people that have done other stuff before.

Also I might point out that its usually not the trained fighters you have to worry about on the street , they are usually too exhausted from their training sessions and are safely tucked up in bed.

Its the loud mouth jerk off wannabees , full of the drink , walking around in packs that think it might be amusing to hassle you and your missus if you have the misfortune of encountering them on a night out .

They are the ones you have to watch out for in my opinion.