The ever more complicated training of some lineages...

[geezer]

Many of you may know that most of my training has been in Leung Ting's WT lineage and later, in on of its offshoots. Anyway, I just returned from a week of fairly intensive training out of state, and while I really enjoyed the experience, I have noticed a trend towards an ever expanding and complicated curriculum. This seems especially true of a particular aspect of training common in the WT lineage and offshoots called "Chi Sau Sections". These are essentially choreographed paired sets of chi-sau movements designed to teach the proper application of movements trained in the forms, including position, timing, energy, and power.

As a starting point, I found this training useful. But over the decades, the number and complexity of these sessions has steadily increased until a huge amount of training time is devoted to memorizing these paired forms with great technical precision. Moreover, many if not most of the movements are specifically trained to use against WC style attacks, and seem to have little practical application against the kind of non-WC attacks we would be far more likely to face.

Finally, does this trend of adding so many complex patterned sets go against the general theme of WC being a streamlined and practical art? Isn't this streamlining and functionality what Grandmaster Yip Man was credited and praised for? If so, WT guys, especially EWTO WT guys, why are we going so far in the opposite direction?

 

[lansao]

Yes yes yes ^^^ this! The way I've learned it we have 6 root chi sao sets that teach a basic premise of what can be done when you feel your arms cross from a position of:

• both your arms on the inside
• both your arms on the outside
• one arm on the inside, the other on the outside

You can create new chi sao sets forever, in the same way you can compose music forever. That said, I've always maintained that the point was to learn how to counter for a counter for a counter in the simplest way possible and what ends up happening is that the same few structures can repeat. You don't have to invent a new response because you've learned that the same tan sao you used before may not actually have to move very much to defend the next counter. Or you might have tan'd, bong'd, and then tan'd again.

Also, if you have to memorize every single specific response to every single movement and give them a name (e.g. "downward flight of the soured sloth" run through Google translate), you're memorizing too much information and missing out on the value of just filling space in your zones/gates.

 

[lansao]

Maybe $$$ is a motivator?

 

[geezer]

Maybe $$$ is a motivator?

That's certainly true in some groups. An endless curriculum means you can string a student along forever.

Another thing, if you have a reasonably dedicated but not-so-gifted student, rather than tell hm, "Gee, I think you've just about maxed-out your potential", you can always keep him happy by saying, "No problem. you just need to learn the next set..."

And then there are more genuine guys like my instructor. He has an incredible memory for physical movement. He learned the whole Hong Kong version of the sets right from LT and also the EWTO version from top European teachers including his si-hing Keith Kernspecht. Memory isn't an big problem for him and I think he includes almost everything he learned in his curriculum, both the good and the not-so-good material because he sees each piece as contributing something to the bigger picture.

The problem with the last case is that for a lot of students (like me) who don't learn and retain material so quickly, you end up spending a lot of time "filling and re-filling leaky buckets" when there are other more productive areas to work on.

 

[geezer]

... "downward flight of the soured sloth"....

Whoa! You guys train that set too?

 

[Danny T]

Interesting.
Training drills (sets) are tools to convey the concepts, develop specific responses based upon range & position, and examples for application/s. Other than that it is simply making students hang on thinking they are getting more material. There comes a time when more isn't better.

 

[Punchy]

I've been beating this drum for years.
The sections are a great learning tool but as LT himself said, the goal is to forget the sections.

I really think we do ourselves and our students a disservice with so much material to perfect.

Ive asked this on MT before...how can WTers simplify without losing what the sections teach?

 

[lansao]

I think it’s the pressure of maintaining revenue and the need to feel one step ahead of your students. These interests are unfortunately not aligned with what is best for students. A good sifu like a good parent will set you free to explore, experience, learn, and grow beyond what they could.

They’ll start you at their finish line by factoring down what they learned in a way that you “get” what took them 5 years to realize in a month. That doesn’t make money, but it advances the art and keeps the blades sharp and fresh from generation to generation.

 

[wckf92]

Yep...learn the form/drill, train the form/drill, forget the form/drill...

 

[DanT]

I prefer the way we do it:

Beginner Level:

- 5 beginner Chi Sao attacks and corresponding defences:

- Gum Da : Quan Sao
- Jik Jurn : Jut Sao
- Lap Da : Tan Da
- Tan Da : Chum Sao
- Bong Da : Jut Sao

Intermediate Level:

- Student must come up with 20 Initial attacks followed by two follow up strikes, created by the individual, not paved out for them in a curriculum. Student must also be able to defend.

Advanced:

- Free flow built up on intermediate level individualized inventions. Preferably focusing on Biu Jee / Mok Yan Jong / LDBG / Bat Jam Do concepts.

 

[Martial D]

Many of you may know that most of my training has been in Leung Ting's WT lineage and later, in on of its offshoots. Anyway, I just returned from a week of fairly intensive training out of state, and while I really enjoyed the experience, I have noticed a trend towards an ever expanding and complicated curriculum. This seems especially true of a particular aspect of training common in the WT lineage and offshoots called "Chi Sau Sections". These are essentially choreographed paired sets of chi-sau movements designed to teach the proper application of movements trained in the forms, including position, timing, energy, and power.

As a starting point, I found this training useful. But over the decades, the number and complexity of these sessions has steadily increased until a huge amount of training time is devoted to memorizing these paired forms with great technical precision. Moreover, many if not most of the movements are specifically trained to use against WC style attacks, and seem to have little practical application against the kind of non-WC attacks we would be far more likely to face.

Finally, does this trend of adding so many complex patterned sets go against the general theme of WC being a streamlined and practical art? Isn't this streamlining and functionality what Grandmaster Yip Man was credited and praised for? If so, WT guys, especially EWTO WT guys, why are we going so far in the opposite direction?

I've gone in the other direction. I've abandoned everything longer than a beat. As such I've pretty much cut ck and bj out completely(the forms, not all of the movements persay)

 

[geezer]

I've gone in the other direction. I've abandoned everything longer than a beat. As such I've pretty much cut ck and bj out completely(the forms, not all of the movements persay)

Please explain ...what do you mean by "longer than a beat"? What about short combinations, exchanges, and so forth? Do you do any flow-type drills or sequences that close from kick to punch to throw, etc.?

 

[wckf92]

Please explain ...what do you mean by "longer than a beat"?

I think he is referring to timing, tool usage, etc. Why block (one beat) and then strike (second beat) if you can cut that process (and OODA loop) and accomplish the objective in one single beat.

 

[Martial D]

Please explain ...what do you mean by "longer than a beat"? What about short combinations, exchanges, and so forth?

A beat. One movement that happens before the opponent can really react. Let's say a quarter of a second. Sure, combos, but nothing in the combo is longer that a beat..like a tripple chain punch entry or front kick / straight punch combo.

One of my main issues with more traditional WC is the expectation of being able to do a 2+ beat movement before the opponent can do a single beat movement. It's just not practical for me, or most people that don't have superhuman speed and reactions, which I definitely do not.

 

[geezer]

A beat. One movement that happens before the opponent can really react. Let's say a quarter of a second. Sure, combos, but nothing in the combo is longer...

Even in Chi-sau, I train every attack, as though it succeeds, following the first move with two more offensive moves to create a quick three move offensive combination. When countering an attack, I defend and then try to retake the offensive, again with a short three-shot combination. I do not know if this would be more than a beat as you describe it, but it trains flow and, more importantly, grabbing and keeping the offense.

Even in light chi-sau exchanges, I advocate each person attack with intent to complete the combination rather than anticipating and facilitating their partner's counter. I've always had trouble with coaches that tell me to be patient and wait for the attack. Honestly, defensive, counter-for-counter thinking has never worked for me!

 

[wckf92]

Even in Chi-sau, I train every attack, as though it succeeds

Yup...however, some WC out there does one, two, sometimes even three defensive "moves" before launching their own attack...

 

[KPM]

Yup...however, some WC out there does one, two, sometimes even three defensive "moves" before launching their own attack...

From a boxing perspective, I see nothing wrong with being "defensive." The sub-text name that Lyte Burly uses for 52 Blocks is "A.O.D" or "Art of Defense." He will tell you that this is where 52 Blocks really shines and what separates it from other methods. Because you cannot do a "tit for tat" kind of defense! When someone can throw fast combinations of strikes from multiple angles you just cannot match them move for move. Eventually one of those blows is going to get in! In FMA a general rule is often used that no combination should be more than 3 counts long. This is because if the combo (whether defense or offensive) hasn't worked within 3 counts you have failed and need to reset/readjust the angle, approach, etc that you are using! One 3 count combo may flow smoothly into the next 3 count combo, but this wouldn't really be considered as a 6 count combo. It all just flows and adapts.

So in 52 Blocks and boxing in general it is acknowledged that doing a "tit for tat" kind of defense where you are trying to match the opponent's attack move for move is simply not a good idea. So emphasis is placed on evasiveness and covering up. Be a hard target to hit and put a wall around that target so that the blows that you know are going to get through can do no damage. Let the opponent get tired battering against your wall or chasing the target so that he gets sloppy and leaves openings, and THEN launch your own attack. The Wing Chun strategy of charging in on the offense and trying to overwhelm the opponent is good, but it is limited. What happens if that opponent has a good defense? The Wing Chun strategy of sticking the opponent to control him and then create openings for your attack can also be good. But what happens when that opponent won't stand still and allow you to stick to him or won't stay in the Chi Sau range? I think this is why we so often see Wing Chun guys not do very well sparring against someone that can box, or we see Wing Chun guys reverting to something that looks a lot like boxing when they spar. Throwing fast combos from multiple directions is what takes people out, and covering up and moving around is the best way to defend against someone throwing said fast combos from multiple directions!

So back to the OP....yes indeed these long and elaborate curricula we often see are really unnecessary. But you have to keep people interested and coming back month to month to pay those fees!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Many of you may know that most of my training has been in Leung Ting's WT lineage and later, in on of its offshoots. Anyway, I just returned from a week of fairly intensive training out of state, and while I really enjoyed the experience, I have noticed a trend towards an ever expanding and complicated curriculum. This seems especially true of a particular aspect of training common in the WT lineage and offshoots called "Chi Sau Sections". These are essentially choreographed paired sets of chi-sau movements designed to teach the proper application of movements trained in the forms, including position, timing, energy, and power.

As a starting point, I found this training useful. But over the decades, the number and complexity of these sessions has steadily increased until a huge amount of training time is devoted to memorizing these paired forms with great technical precision. Moreover, many if not most of the movements are specifically trained to use against WC style attacks, and seem to have little practical application against the kind of non-WC attacks we would be far more likely to face.

Finally, does this trend of adding so many complex patterned sets go against the general theme of WC being a streamlined and practical art? Isn't this streamlining and functionality what Grandmaster Yip Man was credited and praised for? If so, WT guys, especially EWTO WT guys, why are we going so far in the opposite direction?

Knowing the almost nothing I know about WC/VT/WT, I have to wonder if these Chi Sau Sections might be more useful as an alternative to forms. In other words, could they be used to teach basic movement patterns (as forms often are used for), with a bit of application mixed in (which forms aren't generally good for)?

I do see this in other TMA (and T-ish MA) over time. As someone (KPM, I think) postulated, I think this comes from instructors leaving their stamp on the system. Unfortunately, they often find something they like better, but are hesitant to remove the part they liked less. Hell, I'm guilty of that, too, now that I think of it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"downward flight of the soured sloth"

Best laugh I've had this morning, lansao!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe $$$ is a motivator?

I suspect it was at one point (add material for folks to keep working on), and may be a minor motivator at times (something I have that nobody else has), but it's likely mostly just instructors who are trying to improve things.