Real Wing Chun Competitions

[geezer]

After reading a seemingly endless number of threads debating WC vs MMA, or bemoaning the lack of WC in MMA, or stating that WC is useless against MMA, or that WC is just too damn deadly for MMA, or that WC is really there, it just becomes invisible when practiced in the ring along with MMA, or... (well you get the idea)... anyway, I've concluded that what WC (and WT,VT, etc.) really need is it's own full-contact competition format similar to what some other TMAs have managed to develop and promote.

Personally, as I've said on other threads, I'd like to see full-contact bouts with some protective gear to allow for the most open and flexible rules possible, while maintaining a reasonable amount of safety. I'd like to see kicks and leg attacks, punches, elbows, grapples, sweeps and throws, and for the fighting to continue for at least 8 to 10 seconds on the ground after a throw before having to break. Something like this would really allow chunners to both pressure test and showcase their system at the same time, without it ending up looking exactly like an MMA bout.

The question is could this ever come about with the limited number of WC schools and practitoners (all lineages), and with all the politics and jealosies between groups? It has been tried before without much success. But, if you could successfully promote such competitions, would they benefit the Wing Chun style as a whole?

 

[Nabakatsu]

Where do I sign up?!
Seriously though, that would be awesome. I think this type of thing would definitely assist and promote WT. Lat sau is awesome, chi sau is awesome. But it's not enough! too many rules and regulations, self expression of the wt system without too strict a format would be so damn nice!

 

[geezer]

Where do I sign up?!
Seriously though, that would be awesome. I think this type of thing would definitely assist and promote WT...

I agree... but such competition would be best if open to other styles too. If someone can come in and kick some Chunner's butt using boxing, Wrestling, Muay Thai or even Tai Chi... good for them. Anybody who's been around the block knows that there are guys out there who can use other stuff to get the job done. And if it happens that your 'Chun can't handle it, it's time to adapt and evolve! I mean, isn't that the whole point?

 

[dosk3n]

I would love to be a part of setting somthing like this up and think it would be a great advancment in the style. I dont agree with letting other styles be able to compete also as thats more of a mixed art competition and they are already around. I think the idea going towards a WC only competiton but allowing any lineage to compete would be great.

You always hear people saying WC wouldnt work in a competition enviroment as its too dificult to award points for eg in other styles you get one hit, you get a point and you step off to start again. With WC there are alot of combos which is why this would not work.

What would work however would be judging system where you have say 3 judges set up to judge things like how much of what we saw was WC, How much controlling was used and who actually won. This way the rounds would last longer and they would be able to adapt the 8 seconds of fighting on the ground like you mentioned above.

 

[Nabakatsu]

I like both ideas, maybe the first few days, purely wc, than let the top 5-10 guys fight in the all martial art comp the following days.. who knows.. both sound like a blast tho!

 

[dosk3n]

Now does anyone know the first thing about setting this sort of thing up as I dont ha ha.

 

[zepedawingchun]

In the early to middle 1990's, there was an annual Kung Fu competition somewhere in the north east (don't rememebr the city or state), that actually had a division designated to Wing Chun. There was actually forms and a chi sao competition just for Wing Chun practitioners. They also had a push hands division for Tai Chi. Not sure if the thing exists or is conducted anymore. It's been years since I saw anything on it. I knew some of the people who participated in the competitions.

 

[chisauking]

I've always advocated chisau \ gwohsau in wing chun. However, I would just like to highlight a few points for people to consider.

1) Try to resist the temptation of sparring too early. Your wing chun tools has not embedded into your body\subconcious yet, so you are only using your own natral reactions.
2) The R.O.E.S set (rules, Objective, Environment, Stake) will influence your 'conclusion' of fighting.
For example, if you wear gloves, your understanding of how to hit for real will be limited. Because of the proctection offered by your gloves, you can hit how you like. However, in a real fight, if you hit someone's head or skull, you will most likely break your hands. Training without gloves will show you the best choice of tools and where to hit.
Try to wear your normal daily footwear for sparring. Without wearing shoes\boots for sparring, you are forming a misleading 'conclusion' of fighting. A lot of people think that it's easy to take people down, but that's only because without wearing shoes, your opponent can withstand your kicks to their face, and even if you could get through, in all probability your feet will get damaged by his hard skull. Personally, I always wear Dr Martin boots for sparring, since it's my daily footwear. When my opponent trys to go for my leg, I always stomp kick them in the face, or if they lead with their hand, I will whip kick their fingers.
Whether you beleive it or not, 'gearing up' will give you many false feedbacks.

3) Try to apply your wing chun 'tools' in your sparring. All too often, people spar -- but you won't see a single wing chun tool being used. If you can't apply your wing chun tools, concepts, principles, ask yourself why.
4) High intensity gwohsau is quite dangerous, so you must work on a progressive basis. Steadly increase your intensity & power in correlation to your increase in skill. Also, try not to go beyond the intensity & level that you can't control, and take your partner's level into consideration.
The Chinese has an old saying: 'prevention is better tha cure'. The 'model' of learning is designed to minimise the potential for injury -- that's why we don't put our students into sparring until they are ready. When I did western boxing, my coach put me in the ring for light sparring after 4-weeks. I don't see a problem in this, but one must acknowledge the greater potential, or greater risk, for injury with this 'model' of learning.
5) No matter how intensive your sparring, it still isn't fighting. Only a fool would delude themselves into thinking sparring = fighting. Fighting is such a personal thing, with so many variables, no matter how you spar, you still can't emulate true fighting. Therefore, one must be 'honest' with your sparring lessons. Don't think just because you can take your partner down in a nicely padded gym, with them not wearing shoes, you can do the same in reality. Try to replicate as faithfully as possible the R.O.E.S of reality. For example, you will NEVER meet an opponent on the street, wearing boxing gloves, with no shoes, so try to avoid training in this manner. Always, always try to work up to full intensity & pressure with chisau & gwohsau. So many schools that I've seen work at such low intensity, they would have problems with my mum! Being able to cope with 50% pressure means just that. It doesn't guarantee you can handle 60%, 70% 80%, 100% Ask yourself 'whether the techniques\tools that you are using in the gym would really work in REALITY (not just in a gym).

My ideas isn't very well articulated, but I think most of you would get the gist of what I'm trying to impart.

Different lineage place geater emphasis on sparring, so try to look for WSL lineage schools if you can, because they tend to focus more on this front.

All that's left to do is for me to wish you guys 'happy bashing each other up!'

 

[zepedawingchun]

As a note, I found Tiger Claw's Kung Fu Magazine Annual competition for June 12th, 2010. There is a division for Wing Chun . . . weapons form and chi sao. See the link for info:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/info/tournament/index.php

Looks like it will be in San Jose, California. If you're in the area, might be something to go see.

 

[blindsage]

Try to wear your normal daily footwear for sparring. Without wearing shoes\boots for sparring, you are forming a misleading 'conclusion' of fighting. A lot of people think that it's easy to take people down, but that's only because without wearing shoes, your opponent can withstand your kicks to their face, and even if you could get through, in all probability your feet will get damaged by his hard skull.

There are knockouts from bare footed kicks to the head in competitions all the time. But yes adding shoes changes the dynamic.

 

[bully]

I must say it does make you think.

70% of the time when I am out, pub etc I am wearing trainers/Kwons. (Too old to be dressed up for clubbing!!)

The other 30% I am in smart shoes, ie restaurant or something. Mainly when I am with my Mrs. These shoes would NOT be good for Wing Chun at all, may have to rethink and get docs like Chisauking as this would be a time when some scrot would probably have a go. Those smart shoes I wear aint even good for running either.

Good points guys.

 

[chisauking]

Bully:

I kid you not when I'm telling people about Dr martin shoes\boots.

I've been wearing docs now for over 20-years. I run in them, go out to restaurants in them, work in them, spar with them! In fact, I go through between 3- to 4-pairs of docs every year! I don't think anyone else can wear these footwear out so quick.

Ho, ho, ho, I wouldn't be surprised if people thought I was a rep for the company.

In fact, if you see all my photos on the net, or some of my clips, you will see that I'm telling the truth.

 

[bully]

Bully:

I kid you not when I'm telling people about Dr martin shoes\boots.

I've been wearing docs now for over 20-years. I run in them, go out to restaurants in them, work in them, spar with them! In fact, I go through between 3- to 4-pairs of docs every year! I don't think anyone else can wear these footwear out so quick.

Ho, ho, ho, I wouldn't be surprised if people thought I was a rep for the company.

In fact, if you see all my photos on the net, or some of my clips, you will see that I'm telling the truth.

I can't disagree, that 2nd photo on Gary's site of the weekend I met you shows you wearing docs.

Hope your well and I hope i haven't gone off topic too much.

 

[chisauking]

I don't think we have gone off topic, because Geezer's main contention is about sparring, and I think it's a valid point to highlight the fact that sparring can only be realistic if we try to emulate reality as much as possible, which means wearing our normal footwear in fighting.

Since I'm on this forum, I may as well expand a little on what Geezer said.

Geezer said: After reading a seemingly endless number of threads debating WC vs MMA, or bemoaning the lack of WC in MMA, or stating that WC is useless against MMA, or that WC is just too damn deadly for MMA, or that WC is really there, it just becomes invisible when practiced in the ring along with MMA, or... (well you get the idea)... anyway, I've concluded that what WC (and WT,VT, etc.) really need is it's own full-contact competition format similar to what some other TMAs have managed to develop and promote.

There are many points to cover here, so I will only address the main ones.
1) Sometimes, the truth may not be easy to accept.
2) I know many use the 'wing chun is too deadly' excuse, but for those that can truly apply wing chun, it is the truth. How's it possible for us to apply the tools which makes wing chun so effective given the constrints in a sporting context, without injuring our opponent?
3) For wing chun to work, one must be prepared to apply. For example, if someone tries to take you down, you can't respond in a half hearted way. You must respond with commitment & power in order to stop him.

It's not that good wing chun people don't want to spar more with people outside our practice, it's a question of how we can do it without totally rendering our tools completely useless & being fair to both parties.

If one tries to copy the MMA formulae, what will come out most is MMA methods & dynamics -- it has too, because as I've already stated many times, the environment & rules will determine the best tools to use, and the most efficient way to train. For example, by wrapping one's hands with large pillows, our effectiveness in using the yat-gee keun is as useful as a third hand condom, and then the best way to hit is in a boxing type manner. Wing chun punches relay on speed, precision, deep penetration with our end knuckles, atracking weak points of the body. Putting gloves on in wing chun is akin to putting a nib on a foil -- no matter how fast, accurate, sharp the point, it doesn't damage any more. So, what do we resort to? Answer:MMA \ boxing type of punches & exchange, using lots of power to try and knock out our opponent. We can no longer finish the job using a few punches, so now we have no choice but to exchange many blows with our opponent -- ala western boxing.

Can you see the pattern forming from training against the wing chun grain? We are no longer training \ honeing our wing chun punches any more; we have shift emphasis onto western boxing.

I know many people will disagree with me...but one only needs to see the 1000s of utube clips out there, which would verify my point. Can any body see wing chun punches applied during sparring when exponents are 'geared up'? Does it look like wing chun punches?

That's why I agree with Geezer that wing chun could do with its own gwohsau platform, where its own practitioners can put their skills to the test. However, I still think there would be huge problems to overcome. For example, many long term wing chun practitioners think wing chun should look like MMA in application, and in doing so, they adopt the same sort of sparring rules & environment. Then, you go back to square 1: how do we spar within MMA type of ROES set without totally rendering our tools completely useless & being fair to both parties? Because, now, we are sparring with MMA people who thinks they are doing wing chun.

I have nothing against MMA; I'm merely stating that one can't advance & develop one's wing chun skills by using the MMA way.

 

[mook jong man]

I don't think we have gone off topic, because Geezer's main contention is about sparring, and I think it's a valid point to highlight the fact that sparring can only be realistic if we try to emulate reality as much as possible, which means wearing our normal footwear in fighting.

Since I'm on this forum, I may as well expand a little on what Geezer said.

Geezer said: After reading a seemingly endless number of threads debating WC vs MMA, or bemoaning the lack of WC in MMA, or stating that WC is useless against MMA, or that WC is just too damn deadly for MMA, or that WC is really there, it just becomes invisible when practiced in the ring along with MMA, or... (well you get the idea)... anyway, I've concluded that what WC (and WT,VT, etc.) really need is it's own full-contact competition format similar to what some other TMAs have managed to develop and promote.

There are many points to cover here, so I will only address the main ones.
1) Sometimes, the truth may not be easy to accept.
2) I know many use the 'wing chun is too deadly' excuse, but for those that can truly apply wing chun, it is the truth. How's it possible for us to apply the tools which makes wing chun so effective given the constrints in a sporting context, without injuring our opponent?
3) For wing chun to work, one must be prepared to apply. For example, if someone tries to take you down, you can't respond in a half hearted way. You must respond with commitment & power in order to stop him.

It's not that good wing chun people don't want to spar more with people outside our practice, it's a question of how we can do it without totally rendering our tools completely useless & being fair to both parties.

If one tries to copy the MMA formulae, what will come out most is MMA methods & dynamics -- it has too, because as I've already stated many times, the environment & rules will determine the best tools to use, and the most efficient way to train. For example, by wrapping one's hands with large pillows, our effectiveness in using the yat-gee keun is as useful as a third hand condom, and then the best way to hit is in a boxing type manner. Wing chun punches relay on speed, precision, deep penetration with our end knuckles, atracking weak points of the body. Putting gloves on in wing chun is akin to putting a nib on a foil -- no matter how fast, accurate, sharp the point, it doesn't damage any more. So, what do we resort to? Answer:MMA \ boxing type of punches & exchange, using lots of power to try and knock out our opponent. We can no longer finish the job using a few punches, so now we have no choice but to exchange many blows with our opponent -- ala western boxing.

Can you see the pattern forming from training against the wing chun grain? We are no longer training \ honeing our wing chun punches any more; we have shift emphasis onto western boxing.

I know many people will disagree with me...but one only needs to see the 1000s of utube clips out there, which would verify my point. Can any body see wing chun punches applied during sparring when exponents are 'geared up'? Does it look like wing chun punches?

That's why I agree with Geezer that wing chun could do with its own gwohsau platform, where its own practitioners can put their skills to the test. However, I still think there would be huge problems to overcome. For example, many long term wing chun practitioners think wing chun should look like MMA in application, and in doing so, they adopt the same sort of sparring rules & environment. Then, you go back to square 1: how do we spar within MMA type of ROES set without totally rendering our tools completely useless & being fair to both parties? Because, now, we are sparring with MMA people who thinks they are doing wing chun.

I have nothing against MMA; I'm merely stating that one can't advance & develop one's wing chun skills by using the MMA way.

Mate you are spot on , there have been a few times when I have sparred friends with boxing gloves on and even wearing smaller bag type gloves and the alteration you had to make to your technique was ridiculous.

There is no problem with the circular type punches , but if they start throwing them down the centreline you have to open up your centreline so wide to try and deflect that you could drive a truck down there or even worse just lift your gloves up and use them as a shield.

A lot of the time it was so irritating that we just took the gloves off and hit each others head gear with bare fists or palm strikes.

one of our main techniques against a straight punch is to use what we call a counter-pierce , which is a Tan Sau that intercepts on the out side of the opponents wrist , it deflects the punch and strikes through in one motion , hitting either the throat with the fingers or you can change it to a fist and hit the face.

Its next to impossible for you to intercept at the wrist and slide up the forearm when they have gloves on , so right off the bat you have already lost wrist control and leverage.

You can try and use a Pak Sau , but again you have to open up your centreline to intercept , and I prefer to use a Tan Sau because I consider there is a greater margin for error compared to the Pak Sau because of the larger coverage area of the forearm compared to the hand.

Also as you alluded to , the mechanics and the force of the punching is altered and seems to become more circular than linear in order to accommodate the size of the gloves.

 

[blindsage]

Do you run into these same problems with MMA style gloves?

 

[Nabakatsu]

I've found I am able to do chain punches with the gloves we use for applications and lat sau ect in class. they are small, but labeled as mma training gloves. I don't think "Real" mma gloves would be THATTT much bigger. Besides, the power doesn't come from the arm in my lineage, it comes from the footwork and body unison.

The biggest problem I foresee is being able to get within the range I would want, everyone is looking to counterstrike or take you to the ground. HAVING to be the aggressor is the only thing I dislike. I've been playing around with tools as to how to fix this..
staying in IRAS and moving 1 foot at a time to shift around incoming "possible energy" keeps you relatively uncommitted, and whenever they get closes enough, you can execute a quick circle step and than use chasing steps to stay in, hopefully he isn't a "roid-ed out beast" but I spose that's the risk one takes when stepping into a ring.

 

[geezer]

...I've been playing around with tools as to how to fix this..
staying in IRAS and moving 1 foot at a time to shift around incoming "possible energy" keeps you relatively uncommitted...

Duh... what's IRAS? "Something... something... adduction stance"? At least it sounds like you mean "Character-Two Adduction Stance" (aka Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma). I think EBMAS may be using updated terms I'm not familiar with. A little help please!

 

[chisauking]

MJM sez: Also as you alluded to , the mechanics and the force of the punching is altered and seems to become more circular than linear in order to accommodate the size of the gloves.

csk: Well, you are much more articulate than me on describing this point.

They have to be more circular because 1) they have to circumvate round theor opponent's gloves 2) with head gear & gloves, the only way to make any significate impact is by 'throwing' all your body weight into the punch, sometimes at the expense of one's balance & mobility.

I would just like to expand on 1 more point regarding wing chun punching.

As I've said many times, your objectives will determine the best way to apply your tools. If your objective is to simply hit your opponent, or try to 'knock' him out, then one would apply the punch in 1 way. If your objective is to inflict maximum injury to your opponent, you must apply the punch in another way.

I will let the members think about this idea.

 

[mook jong man]

Do you run into these same problems with MMA style gloves?

To be honest I haven't worn them , all my hard sparring years were before MMA gloves come out.

But I have tried various other things like weight training gloves etc , so yeah MMA gloves are small enough so that you could probably still use proper technique.

But with any sort of gloves on I felt that there was something missing , like I was a bit blind or something.
What was missing was the tactile sensory input from my hands , It was blunted somewhat .

I could move in and hit , but the finesse in close range trapping and wrist latching was gone because I couldn't feel much.
So I think bare hands for Wing Chun is best , maybe they just have to invent better head gear , preferably some that doesn't ruin your peripheral vision.