On another thread dealing with McDojos and dubious quality instruction, MJS posted that it raised a "red flag" when an instructor claimed very high ranks in multiple arts. Now, there are dedicated individuals that have legitemately achieved high ranks in two or three martial arts. And there are also high level masters who, because of their skill and experience, have been able to adapt useful skills from other styles without devoting the many years it would take to become a "master" of each system. But, on the whole, I have to agree with MJS's comment. When I pass the neighborhood "McDojo" and see signs advertising instruction in "Karate, Kung-fu, Kenpo, Taekwondo, Kickboxing, Muay Tai, MMA and Ninjutsu", I don't know if I should laugh or be ill. And I feel the same way when someone starts claiming 6th, 7th and 8th dans in five different systems. I suppose there may be a few such individuals out there, but they can't be common. What do the rest of you think?
Very High Rank in Many Arts?!?
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
I do not understand how people can have 10 5th degree's or higher to me it is just paper pushers.
I have noticed more than once that when I see someone purporting themselves to be high rank (read: 5th dan or higher) in more than 2 arts, they are often from the same basic organization/base school...
For Example: Kobayashi Maru Kobudo 7th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Karate 7th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Jujutsu 6th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Taijutsu 5th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Ikibana 5th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Sushi 9th Dan, etc.
For Example: Kobayashi Maru Kobudo 7th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Karate 7th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Jujutsu 6th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Taijutsu 5th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Ikibana 5th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Sushi 9th Dan, etc.
allenjp
Brown Belt
On the other hand I have seen some dojos that train several different arts like that, but there is a different instructor for each one, that is a high rank for that discipline. I think that is OK.
Brian S
Purple Belt
Man, geezer, you sure do have alot of bones to pick don't you,lol.
Yep, there are people out there with 10th dans in multiple arts. There are "Soke's" out there who are just blatant frauds. There are mcdojo's out there on every corner run by blackbelts that got it in less than 2yrs. Camoflage belts, kiddie blackbelts, laser printed certificate hoarders, etc, etc.....so, let's go kick their asses!!!!
Yep, there are people out there with 10th dans in multiple arts. There are "Soke's" out there who are just blatant frauds. There are mcdojo's out there on every corner run by blackbelts that got it in less than 2yrs. Camoflage belts, kiddie blackbelts, laser printed certificate hoarders, etc, etc.....so, let's go kick their asses!!!!
Only if they deserve it, inmost cases they get cross ranks because the school teaches both.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Eugene Sedeno is a 9th in kajukenbo and a 9th in Shaolin kenpo
both Chow lineage arts, so thats easy to believe
Plus a master's license from Mitose
he also has a cert signed by Ed parker for a 5th Dan in EPAK, from the early 80's
some rare people can do that
in general tho?
BIG FAT HAIRY RED FLAG
both Chow lineage arts, so thats easy to believe
Plus a master's license from Mitose
he also has a cert signed by Ed parker for a 5th Dan in EPAK, from the early 80's
some rare people can do that
in general tho?
BIG FAT HAIRY RED FLAG
grydth
Senior Master
I have seen masters with high ranks in two associated disciplines such as kendo and iaido. I would concede that some very few individuals could achieve more.
Very gifted individuals = 1%
Soke Purchased Paper Collectors = 99%
Very gifted individuals = 1%
Soke Purchased Paper Collectors = 99%
Here's one for you. There's a school in my town with the world's first
18th degree blackbelt......
Apparently, he has rank in a few systems and added his degrees together, and people actually believe this crap.
(I won't mention what type of school it is but it's initials are...........TKD........I'm just saying)
18th degree blackbelt......
Apparently, he has rank in a few systems and added his degrees together, and people actually believe this crap.
(I won't mention what type of school it is but it's initials are...........TKD........I'm just saying)
F
foggymorning162
Guest
That is what we do, our head instructor is 7th Dan TSD , it is a TSD school we also have instructors who teach Jujitso, Kun Tao and Tia Chi. These are offered as extras and each one is only a once a week class. Our head instructor is 1st dan in Jujitso but he does not teach that class the insructor is a Master in Jujitso sorry not sure of rank.
My memory isn't good enough for that sort of thing.
You have to look at the systems in question; there are a very few legitimate systems where, as you train, you get rank in several linked systems all falling underneath the overall banner. I think that the Jinenkan does this, for example.
But as a general rule, I agree that if you see one person claiming more than 1st or 2nd black belts in more than 2 or 3 systems -- especially if they're pretty disparate systems -- there's a problem.
This isn't necessarily the same as having credentials in multiple systems. There are people -- especially those who have made martial arts their profession -- who have legitimate credentials, even up to teaching credentials, in several styles.
But as a general rule, I agree that if you see one person claiming more than 1st or 2nd black belts in more than 2 or 3 systems -- especially if they're pretty disparate systems -- there's a problem.
This isn't necessarily the same as having credentials in multiple systems. There are people -- especially those who have made martial arts their profession -- who have legitimate credentials, even up to teaching credentials, in several styles.
Hey isn't James T. Kirk a master at that... I mean he took the test 4 times and his final solution was shall we say... unique.
Congrats on the catch! CPT Kirk was, in fact, finally a master of said testing method!
No, he simply didn't believe in a no rank scenario.
Assuming that 7th-8th Dan in one style requires a lifetime of dedicated practice, and that such idividuals are very rare, it stands to reason that someone claiming 10th Dan in 7 different styles is, shall we say, full of bull excrement.
End of story.
End of story.
Cirdan
Senior Master
People holding multiple high ranks.. some are frauds, others are truly dedicated people. For instance the former grand master of Katori Shinto Ryu was a 10th Dan in Aikido as well. Many people in the organization practice Kyodo and other additional arts. One rather famous Sensei I have attended seminars with is Dan ranked (3rd to 5th) in as many as six styles. Very respected his history of training is well documented.
One other think I have seen is Karate teachers also teaching Okinawan Kobudo who will list their rank in every weapon.. tonfa, bo etc. Adds up to a lot of uneccecary ranks
One other think I have seen is Karate teachers also teaching Okinawan Kobudo who will list their rank in every weapon.. tonfa, bo etc. Adds up to a lot of uneccecary ranks
Hyper_Shadow
Green Belt
That is highly unnecessary. As far as I know you don't rank individual weaponry in Okinawan Kobudo. In fact if you're training in okinawan te in any case it's pretty much rolled into one. So your one rank pretty much defines everything you do within it, weapons or otherwise.
It seems to me that people think in order to successfully run a dojo nowadays you need to be a (I shudder at the term) 'master' in about fifty million different martial arts. I dunno about everyone else, but I'm a one track bloke. I train at one dojo and for me it's all I'll ever need and all I'll ever want. I've found my place. Within that place I barely have time to keep my skills polished, let alone keep improving on them. So forgive me for sounding a bit thick headed, plus I know there are people who dedicate a lot of time and effort over many different forms of martial arts; but I cannot understand how the vast majority of these people can claim ludicrously high ranks in about 6 or more seperate schools.
It is quite apparent that people want to be trained by 'legitimate' instructors who are experienced combat veterans. But even the average bystander with a little common sense should have alrm bells ringing when someone declares that they are 'masters' and have like 18th(!WTF!?) dan grades and such.
That all said, who really cares? Yeah it's damaging to martial arts in general and yeah it's gonna mean less students are attracted to the dojos. However, as far as I'm concerned it really doesn't bother me. I have sweat, bled and thrown up for the sliver of knowledge I've earned; and that's what it is, a sliver, there's still a vast ocean left for me to explore. Grade doesn't mean a damn thing. Fair enough it's nice to have recognition of my achievements but if my grades were taken away from me today would I cease being a martial artist of my skill level? Nope. In my opinion I say let the fools chase paper and the rest of us will chase real strength instead and when it comes to the crunch what is gonna save your life? A certificate or the ability?
kamishinkan
Green Belt
Very interesting thread, I have noticed shifts in the martial arts in the short time I have trained (25+ years) and some interesting shifts historically in MA as well (as in long before me). In the research I have done in the early 1900's in what we would consider modern MA, it was not uncommon at all for martial arts masters to have seemingly high dan ranks in several arts. I know of a well known Okinawan that had SEVERAL high black belts from instructors such as Tomoyori Ryusei in Kenyu Ryu, Mabuni Kenwa in Shito Ryu, Gogetsu Ichi in Mugai Ryu, Nagamine Shojin in Shorin Ryu and Kobudo training with Taira Shinken and Nakaima Kenko of Ryuei Ryu. Notice these are unrelated arts. This is just the way it was and some instructors had the ability and time to train to a good degree with several masters.
It seems that a shift happened and for whatever reason, rank seemed to slow down especially for westerners (maybe it was our hunger for rank recognition......). Today it does not work that way. I have a theory that back in the early days of MA (modern) history there were not that many people training so rank seemed to happen fairly easily, today, the MA is so inflated with students the rank sytem slowed down (not talking about modern western MA rank papermills, where rank is given with little to no time, sweat, blood and tears). From what I can tell, in the early years ranking up to Godan was reasonably done, after that it SLOWED DOWN. I do agree though, that if a modern western based instructor claims several high ranks I would be very suspect still. :asian:
It seems that a shift happened and for whatever reason, rank seemed to slow down especially for westerners (maybe it was our hunger for rank recognition......). Today it does not work that way. I have a theory that back in the early days of MA (modern) history there were not that many people training so rank seemed to happen fairly easily, today, the MA is so inflated with students the rank sytem slowed down (not talking about modern western MA rank papermills, where rank is given with little to no time, sweat, blood and tears). From what I can tell, in the early years ranking up to Godan was reasonably done, after that it SLOWED DOWN. I do agree though, that if a modern western based instructor claims several high ranks I would be very suspect still. :asian:
