High ranked blackbelts who don't fight well...

[LawDog]

Many "older" seniors fight well for their age. Most can still give / take a punch or role. Reflex is what is lost with age. The older you get then more that you must "see" a chamber or "feel" a move.
Unfortunitly some "seniors" stop their active training thus loss of skill occurs.

 

[Svart]

I was just chatting with a 2nd dan the other night and we got talking about the arts and the street. He admitted that if someone came up to him and started swinging, he wouldnt have a clue what to do except for swing back.
My best mate who is an instructor and 3rd dan is in elite physical condition and can drop me through a large shield with a kick. He goes to Korea to compete reguarly and is the best sparrer I know. Yet 3 weeks ago some random guy punched him in the face for looking his way. He said he was just like "What the hell?" Sure, he could have started kicking or swinging back, but why? He just took the punch and left.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I must agree with those who have asked what is meant by FIGHT.
if it is point sparring maybe I and those my age may not be as fast as a 20 year old. If it is survival then maybe we have the advantage of age, learning, experience and will come out on top.
Over the years age dose some strange things to the body and strength and flexibility may decline, possibly reactions may also but that dose not take away from the learning, knowledge, or even the desire to win or do ones best in any situation

 

[morph4me]

My definition of fight is something you have to do because you've been put in a position where there is no alternative, you've been attacked or are defending loved ones oar someone else from physical attack. Sparring is sport, fighting is survival.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Have you actually fought any of these "old guys"? I'm not talking about sparring either, but fighting.

 

[victorn]

Over the years age dose some strange things to the body and strength and flexibility may decline

Hmm... I've just started TKD training (after many years of bodybuilding/weightlifting). I'm 44 but my enthusiasm is bigger than of some 17 y.o.

My question is: does your statement mean that my flexibility (speed, balance, etc) will, at best, be improving rather slowly and only for a few years and then somewhere after 50 I'm going to get slower, stiffer, weaker, etc, no matter how hard I would try?


Viktor

 

[hogstooth]

My question is this, "How common is it to find older, high ranking (3rd, 4th, 5th degree or higher) black-belts who may really know their stuff, but are not particularly good fighters?" and, "Does this even matter?"[/quote]

It is probably very common but it should not matter if the individual is a good fighter if he is a good instructor. Would you rather have a good fighter that can't teach you or a good teacher that's not so good at fighting? The bottom line is if you reach that level you can fight but that doesn't mean you can climb into the octagon with Rampage and clean his clock.
Do you think the people behind the UFC fighters teaching them could climb into the ring? Some can, some can't, and some won't. I'm in the later.
The bottom line is they are good at passing on knowledge and technique to others and that's all that counts.

 

[Brian S]

The bottom line is they are good at passing on knowledge and technique to others and that's all that counts.

Unfortunately, that's not always true.

 

[kidswarrior]

Guess all I want to add, since so many have already expressed how I feel, is a story.

My boxing coach in the late 60s had a huge waistline, coke bottle glasses, and a stogie permanently stuck in his mouth. I don't think he could have gone even a full minute in the ring with a young fighter. But he'd been a pretty fair middle weight in his day, and still had a left hook that would rock the whole area when he hit the heavy bag. It was not something you wanted to be on the receiving end of.

Could/would he fight for sport? Nah. But could he take out a weaponless attacker or two on the way to his car? I have no doubt. So, in answer to the question: Could he still fight when I knew him? Do you mean fight as in sport, or for your life or loved ones?

 

[GuroJason]

My definition of fight is something you have to do because you've been put in a position where there is no alternative, you've been attacked or are defending loved ones oar someone else from physical attack. Sparring is sport, fighting is survival.

Agreed!

 

[IcemanSK]

The issues of "how often is it needed today" & "what does one expect from an older practioner" are exactly the points in this topic.

There are folks like this man, who is 58 years old now:

who are acceptions to the age issue. But most of us mortal slow down with age. And of course don't ever underestimate our own cane carrying Matt M. If one does, they will find themselves on a quick trip to the floor.

I've trained hard for 26 years, but have never had a fight "on the street." I never felt the need to proof myself to every joker I met who say "what would you do if I.....?"

 

[GuroJason]

Yet another exception to the age rule:

Grandmaster Pallen is 61 in this video.

 

[girlbug2]

Fight as in sparring? As in sport? Or as in self defense?

What kind of fighting are we really talking about here...

I will be the first to admit that while I love to spar I am not especially good at it. My training is centered on self defense, and in that realm I have no doubt even at my lowly rank now I could kick butt. Eventually I could get to black belt with the track I'm on even if I never get good at sparringm (But I will continue to practice it nonetheless).

It is my observation that some people are just more gifted at sport fighting than others. I believe it involves instincts that may not be able to be trained, an "either you got it or you don't" thing, just as some people are naturally more gifted at their sport than your average person.

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

Yet another exception to the age rule:

Grandmaster Pallen is 61 in this video.

Yep, and a few years later he's still that badass!

 

[stone_dragone]

In relation to the OP, I see "legitimate" high level rank being similar to the Senior Ranks in the military.

As a basic Infantry Private, your worth is measured in your ability to hit a target with your personal weapon consistently, move by foot over long distances quickly and execute all your basic warrior tasks and drills. Average age = 18-23 (Basic equivalent Shodan/1st Degree Black Belt)

As an Infantry NCO (SGT, SSG) or Junior Officer (2LT, 1LT,) your worth is measured in the ability to train and lead Privates, having "mastered" those basic skills and become proficient at the teaching of those skills. YOu should be able to out-hang the joes. Average Age = 22-27 (Equivalent to Sandan/3rd Degree Black Belt)

As an Infantry Mid Grade NCO (SFC) or Officer (CPT), your worth begins to shift from a doer to a manager/teacher/planner. Your experience and ability to think and problem solve is becoming more valuable than your ability to hit targets at 500m with your M4. Average Age = 26 - 32 (Equivalent to a yodan/4th degree black belt)

As an Infantry Senior NCO (1SG-SGM) or Officer (MAJ or higher) your worth lies more in your experience and the answers you hold than your ability to run fast. Average Age = 34 and above. (equivalent to godan/5th degree black belt).

Just because your value no longer lies in the ability to hit a target or run fast doesn't relieve you of the responsibility to maintain those skill sets and physical level of fitness. That being said, it is far more common and understandable that you find Majors and Master Sergeants running their PT test times in the 14-15 minute range than the Privates...although there are issues right now with the latter, but that's another story for another time.

Point of the rant: Physical skills, although still important, should not be the priority when it comes to senior belt ranks.

My .02

 

[Deaf Smith]

Ever hear of Chesty Puller? That's Lt. General Puller of the USMC. Before he retired he could still outmarch most privates in the USMC. His experinces? Banana wars, Guadalcanal, Cape Glouchester, Peleliu, Chosin Reservoir (Korea), He was the the most decorated U.S. Marine in history.He received the nation's second highest military decoration a total of six times!

No, I bet his eyes were not so good in later years, and surely not his hearing, but he had more knowledge in the tip of his finger than most ever have with years of book learning.

Funny thing is he had a mediocre record at VMI before he joined the USMC. Lesson in that is don't judge people so much by how much wall paper they have.

Deaf

 

[hogstooth]

Ever hear of Chesty Puller? That's Lt. General Puller of the USMC. Before he retired he could still outmarch most privates in the USMC. His experinces? Banana wars, Guadalcanal, Cape Glouchester, Peleliu, Chosin Reservoir (Korea), He was the the most decorated U.S. Marine in history.He received the nation's second highest military decoration a total of six times!

No, I bet his eyes were not so good in later years, and surely not his hearing, but he had more knowledge in the tip of his finger than most ever have with years of book learning.

Funny thing is he had a mediocre record at VMI before he joined the USMC. Lesson in that is don't judge people so much by how much wall paper they have.

Deaf

Semper Fi!!!