To Takedown or Not to Takedown?

[Kung Fu Wang]

You will feel differently if someone knocks you down vs. take you down. When someone knocks you down, you may feel angry and want to knock your opponent down too. When someone take you down, you will feel that your opponent has better MA skill than you do. You may not want to fight back after that.

One of my friends told me that a "foot sweep" saved his career. He worked in Quick Oat Company. 2 of his co-worked always tried to trouble him. My friend told his wife that he might lose his job that day (he intented to fight back that day). He faced those 2 guys, a perfect "foot sweep" take one guy down. It scared both guys. Both guys left him alone until he retired many years later.

When someone uses foot sweep to take you down, it can cause more shocking than a punch on your nose. That shocking can stop you to have desire to fight back.

Someone said that foot sweep can solve 80% of the street problems. I truly believe in that.

 

[skribs]

This is why I tell my students that there is no such thing as a "submission" in a street self-defense context. You can't expect that a mugger will tap out to an armlock and then shake your hand and say "good job" afterwards

I was helping with the tots class today. This girl, about 5-6 years old, is drilling a double leg. We always teach the kids to help your partner up after a take-down. This girl decided to make it a scenario. "She [the training partner] is trying to kidnap me!" (She does the double leg). "Now I help the stranger up!"

There was a rather lengthy facepalm on my part. After that, I told her to think of her training partner as a tournament opponent instead.

 

[skribs]

It can. Or it could save your life.

Trying to punch and kick your attacker can get you killed. Or it can save your life.

Trying to run away from an attacker can get you killed. Or it can save your life.

Trying to deploy a weapon can get you killed. Or it can save your life.

Being able to evaluate the situation and take appropriate action, rather than automatically going for your favorite sparring move is key. This is why I try to mix things up with my students, giving them different (often asymmetric) objectives to aim for in our live rounds. I can't necessarily give them the knowledge to know exactly when to talk and when to run and when to take down and restrain and when to stand and bang. But I can help them learn the mental flexibility to switch up their immediate objectives as needed.

It baffles me how long some of these folks have been on this forum and think there's one right answer for every situation. It's the same mindset as "If the jab is the most important punch, why bother learning all of the others?"

 

[HighKick]

This is why I tell my students that there is no such thing as a "submission" in a street self-defense context. You can't expect that a mugger will tap out to an armlock and then shake your hand and say "good job" afterwards. There are chokes intended to render an opponent unconscious and there are joint locks intended to inflict structural damage, such as dislocating a joint or tearing ligaments. If the situation is not one where you can legally and morally justify choking your attacker unconscious or breaking a limb, then you should not be going for those techniques.

It can. Or it could save your life.

Trying to punch and kick your attacker can get you killed. Or it can save your life.

Trying to run away from an attacker can get you killed. Or it can save your life.

Trying to deploy a weapon can get you killed. Or it can save your life.
I
Being able to evaluate the situation and take appropriate action, rather than automatically going for your favorite sparring move is key. This is why I try to mix things up with my students, giving them different (often asymmetric) objectives to aim for in our live rounds. I can't necessarily give them the knowledge to know exactly when to talk and when to run and when to take down and restrain and when to stand and bang. But I can help them learn the mental flexibility to switch up their immediate objectives as needed.

I don't know about skribs, but I certainly can and have. (As might be expected after 26 years of BJJ practice.) Whether I would choose to do that rather than some other option (such as slamming them, stomping the groin, and running away) very much would depend on the details of the situation.

All very good points. I guess I under-rated my point about the level of strain a person may be willing or able to handle. Because escalation can be Very hard to gauge, the quicker a person is restrained the better.

I was a smaller weight class in my college wrestling days (150's lbs). I can remember some of those 3-mnute rounds feeling Much longer when I was in a prolonged leveraged/strained position.

In my LEO days, I focused Much more on getting to hard restraint as fast as possible. Situational assessment from a distance (approx. 6') as much as possible and then when the decision was made to go hands-on, things got real fast, real quick. No more talking than required.
We had a few guys that IMHO tried to be too 'nice' sometimes and often ended up causing themselves or the assailant more grief. Maybe they tried to reason with the person to much, but it usually just led to consternation and sometimes someone really getting hurt. Conversely, we had some guys who loved dolling out punishment too much. Sometimes they would talk/bait a person into doing something stupid. Sometimes their actions would be quick and violent, sometimes overly long restraint/joint manipulation for the sheer pleasure of it.
This was near the end of the slap-jack days. If you have ever seen one in use, you understand.

 

[drop bear]

Sure. But have You ever done it? I am not talking about a pin or submission in a match. Much harder than it looks. I am not theorizing, I have had to do it, and it is a PITA.
Think of it this way, imagine holding 150 plus pounds perpendicular for 5-10 minutes. Do you really think you could do that?

I have done it. And held guys for like 40 minutes.

I go to kasegetami. And I am basically sitting in a lounge chair.

 

[HighKick]

I have done it. And held guys for like 40 minutes.

I go to kasegetami. And I am basically sitting in a lounge chair.

View attachment 32977

I get what you are saying. I did not do a good job of making my point on strain. I was trying to imply holding 150 plus pounds in your hands in mid-air with no other supporting mechanisms. The strain from leverage and body posture would be Much different.
Applying pressure or leverage on the ground is 'easier' since you can use your body as the lever and the floor for friction. I would more call what you are showing as 'torque', but potato/potatoe.

What you are showing is just not apples to apples, but I do get your point.