UFC proves KF useless

[MJS]

Nah, you just don't have proof. I said the same thing about Si-Je and the rest of the people without video.



Some objective proof (ie some that doesn't come from you or your friends like a newreport or court documents or something) might be helpful although not absolute.

So basically anyone without this is a liar?

Eight years.

I may have asked this, got an answer, but can't remember, or maybe I never got an answer at all. In any case, I'll ask again. Aside from your 8 yrs. in Karate, what other training do you have that you can base all of these comments on? Do you engage in MMA fighting or training? Are you basing your opinions just going on what you've seen?

Look, there are thousands apon thousands of gang members, bouncers, security people, bikers etc across the world who manage to defend themselves (and attack others) very sucessfully with no formal training. Some have literally hundreds of fights to their credit. Sitting here, think, ok, they can beat the local town drunk, local tough guys, maybe even a couple of them at once. Perhaps they are the biggest
fish in their pond.

Don't mistake this for being the best in the world. I really don't care all that much about great sucess against unskilled opponents or supposedly skilled fighters that no one has heard of. THe stuff I see from the great annals of the "streetfighters" consists of beating people of no real skill themselves and then thinking that they can do the same to anyone.

What makes you think that the guy thats going to mug you, carjack you, break into your house at 2am, or one thats going to rape and kill your wife or girlfriend, is going to have the same skill as Royce Gracie?

What happens when they fight each other (a bunch of the middle UFCs were like this when the TMA masters got ditched for large streetfighters)? How do they do against TMAists? How do they do against professional athletes? What happens when we search for who does best? Do patterns emerge? Do these patterns mean anything?

I posted this a while back, never got a reply, so I'll post again:

These are the current fouls taken directly from the UFC homepage. Now, I don't feel that because someone can't eye gouge, hit the groin, etc., that they should say, "See, if I can't do those, I can't win." However, it is one less tool, that someone has to work with. And if that tool is the one thats going to make or break the outcome, well, that should speak for itself. The UFC and MMA events are sports, held in a controlled environment. If the saying, "You fight like you train" holds true, is the MMA fighter, in the street, going to fall back on that eye gouge, or are they mentally conditioned not to, due to the way they train for the ring? I've rolled and have tapped people, without having to fall back on an eye gouge. But, had this been a life and death struggle, it'd be nice to fall back on the eye gouge. Pretty much, its going to come down to who has the better skill of the two.

 

[MJS]

Which ones?

Here

 

[Xue Sheng]

Look, there are thousands apon thousands of gang members, bouncers, security people, bikers etc across the world who manage to defend themselves (and attack others) very sucessfully with no formal training. Some have literally hundreds of fights to their credit. Sitting here, think, ok, they can beat the local town drunk, local tough guys, maybe even a couple of them at once. Perhaps they are the biggest
fish in their pond.

Don't mistake this for being the best in the world. I really don't care all that much about great sucess against unskilled opponents or supposedly skilled fighters that no one has heard of. THe stuff I see from the great annals of the "streetfighters" consists of beating people of no real skill themselves and then thinking that they can do the same to anyone.

What happens when they fight each other (a bunch of the middle UFCs were like this when the TMA masters got ditched for large streetfighters)? How do they do against TMAists? How do they do against professional athletes? What happens when we search for who does best? Do patterns emerge? Do these patterns mean anything?

Just as a note one of the scariest people I ever knew was, as you said, unskilled, biker and a street fighter. He also took on a beat 2 highly trained individuals and they had to call a 3rd to actually take him down.

The 3 trained individuals were Massachusetts State Police officers and he did end up going to jail for this.

Sorry I cannot produce films of this or the police record but it really happened.

Bottom-line tough is tough.

OK, I'm done carry on.

 

[matt.m]

In all honesty I sincerely believe that Gracie won in the beginning because of the following "Everyone more or less let him shoot on them without a punch or kick." GSP beat Hughes with his hands and feet, period. GSP's major training background is Karate, 10 yrs if I am not mistaken.

I was at UFC II, it reminded me of nothing more than unpolished judo randori. It has gotten better and evolved into what it is today. So it seems that some believe that the way people train and hold contest in the octagon is optimal. That is ok, for the contest. However, there are no multiple attackers.

I don't know about everyone else's classroom environment but I will say that a strong proponent of MSK TKD and HKD is designed to cripple ones opponenet and to keep fighting because I know and say in all sincerity that you will not fight one on one with a ruleset and "The day you must fight will be the worst day of your life and you will still have to defend yourself." It is true, I know from 1st hand from combat on three continents and one island while commanding jr. Marines. When someone wants to hurt you they bring a friend to help with the festivities.

To call a sport a fighting art/style is ridiculous. Judo and Tae kwon Do were martial arts way before they were olympic sports. Judo and TKD the arts vs. the sports are two totally different animals, they are different in every application and should be different.

Also, the last I checked there are no hapkido tournaments because hapkido is a crippling and maiming art designed to destroy an opponent quickly.

 

[Rook]

The bold is mine. What you're describing is what works in the environment of the ring. There are many arts out there, all of which can prove effective. As I've said countless times, but don't seem to get a reply...we can sit and debate about tape, proof of this and proof of that, but the fact remains that there are many folks that have used TMA to defend themselves and there is no tape. This does not mean that its not effective.

I didn't say that it never worked, I said that it was not the optimal way to fight. There are, as above, thousands of people who sucessfully defend themselves quite frequently without any martial arts training at all. What I want to know is what happens when the "good" fighters, the people who are experianced and trained face off with each other instead of the local drunk. Wild haymakers from a normal sized man in good shape who doesn't panic will chase off lots of attackers; try it against even a moderately competent hobbiest of a boxer and he'll get flattened.

Again, 2 people matched, in a controlled environment. The ring dictates what happens, what does not happen, weapons, etc. This is an apples to oranges debate.

I don't think it is. Physics is physics. The takedown defense that fails in the octagon will fail in the alley just as well.

The weapons are a different debate. There is not any solid evidence about best practices unarmed against armed attackers, and while periodic police studys recommend different tactics, I have no real evidence to suggest that the BJJ weapons defenses or the SAMBO or Bas Rutten's or Mark Hatmakers or Frank Shamrock's or Oleg Taktarov's weapons defenses are any better or worse than their TMA equivallents. What we do know is how they fare against each other unarmed.

Sure, that is possible, against one person. I'm interested in hearing how this is done against 2, 3 or more?

Mike

How what is done? Remain standing? The same takedown defenses apply to multiples as to single opponents. The same techniques to standup and to recover from positions. SAMBO guys and sometimes other guys drill this.

 

[zDom]

Haven't seen it.

You should. I find it to be a very funny movie.

Nah, you just don't have proof. I said the same thing about Si-Je and the rest of the people without video.

Wrong. I don't have (readily available) anything meets YOUR criteria for proof.

Testimony and other forms of evidence have been enough for courts of law and historians for thousands of years and is STILL good enough for courts and historians.

Imagine how many psychopaths would be running the streets if the courts insisted on videotaped "proof" before making a determination.

Besides: there is plenty of videotape proof. But everytime you are presented with it, you redefine what you see to match your preconceptions.

GSP and Chuck Liddell are both examples of what happens if a TMAist decides to throw his hat into the UFC.

But because they began to train specifically for the event, you redefine them as "MMAists."

The Gracies wear judo uniforms, are an offshoot of Judo, use a colored/black belt system, have a "lineage" etc. — but you want them to be on the MMA side of the discussion so you declare they are, in fact, MMAists, and use them to back up your arguments.

Some objective proof (ie some that doesn't come from you or your friends like a newreport or court documents or something) might be helpful although not absolute.

Contact: Mr. Don Davis Jr.
573-471-0043
Miletich Fighting Systems of Southeast Missouri
% Pitbull Jiu Jitsu & Combative Arts
1209 E. Malone Ave.
Sikeston, MO 63801
[email protected]
http://mfs-missourise.tripod.com

(as per this link: http://www.mfselite.com/id26.html — they have Sikeston's ZIP code wrong, btw. Somebody should bring it to their attention).

Don is a friendly acquaintance, not exactly a "friend." He knows who I am, even spent some time working out with my instructor, Mstr. Mike Morton.

Feel free to contact him and get his opinion on Moo Sul Kwan HKD, Morton, me.

Look, there are thousands apon thousands of gang members, bouncers, security people, bikers etc across the world who manage to defend themselves (and attack others) very sucessfully with no formal training. Some have literally hundreds of fights to their credit. Sitting here, think, ok, they can beat the local town drunk, local tough guys, maybe even a couple of them at once. Perhaps they are the biggest
fish in their pond.

Ok.

Don't mistake this for being the best in the world. I really don't care all that much about great sucess against unskilled opponents or supposedly skilled fighters that no one has heard of. THe stuff I see from the great annals of the "streetfighters" consists of beating people of no real skill themselves and then thinking that they can do the same to anyone.

The things I see on TV when it comes to MMA beating down TMA is MMA fighters facing unskilled TMAists — not top fighters

What happens when they fight each other (a bunch of the middle UFCs were like this when the TMA masters got ditched for large streetfighters)? How do they do against TMAists? How do they do against professional athletes? What happens when we search for who does best? Do patterns emerge? Do these patterns mean anything?

Too small of a sample to determine anything. Acceptable samples require thousands, not dozens or hundreds, of samples.

Nothing conclusive at this point. Although I'd like to point out that GSP and Liddell are doing pretty well.

For the first method: Why would someone pay to redo what the first UFCs already covered? I think Dana White and the rest have already seen what happens when TMA meets MMA and I doubt they will bother funding a repeat.

First UFCs covered TMAs vs TMAs. MMA, as you define it, didn't exist yet.

For the second: Why would someone train in a handicapped manner?

So we could find out what the OPTIMUM techniques are. So you can control the experiment and conclusively determine what the deciding factors are (as opposed to level of conditioning, strength, age, etc.)

 

[MJS]

I didn't say that it never worked,

No? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but in a number of your posts, you make reference to TMAs not being on the same level as MMA.

I said that it was not the optimal way to fight. There are, as above, thousands of people who sucessfully defend themselves quite frequently without any martial arts training at all. What I want to know is what happens when the "good" fighters, the people who are experianced and trained face off with each other instead of the local drunk. Wild haymakers from a normal sized man in good shape who doesn't panic will chase off lots of attackers; try it against even a moderately competent hobbiest of a boxer and he'll get flattened.

This was what I quoted from you:

Originally Posted by Rook
I think we've been here before, but what could be a better unarmed fighting method than the one that comes out on top of all the unarmed fights that involves it? There are situations that no one but no one can prepare you or train you for (I heard a guy not far from where I live got shot with a sawed off shotgun from a guy hiding in a doorway when he walked past on the sidewalk... there really is no unarmed defense for stuff like that that doesn't come out of a comic book), there are armed situations, and then there is unarmed fighting. The optimum method for fighting unarmed, IMO has been established over years of pitting unarmed fighting methods against each other under few or no rules and watching a very consistant result.

You're assuming that what works in the ring is always going to work outside of the ring.

I don't think it is. Physics is physics. The takedown defense that fails in the octagon will fail in the alley just as well.

And you know this how? Again, you're assuming that we're going to be facing someone who is highly skilled in takedowns.

The weapons are a different debate. There is not any solid evidence about best practices unarmed against armed attackers, and while periodic police studys recommend different tactics, I have no real evidence to suggest that the BJJ weapons defenses or the SAMBO or Bas Rutten's or Mark Hatmakers or Frank Shamrock's or Oleg Taktarov's weapons defenses are any better or worse than their TMA equivallents. What we do know is how they fare against each other unarmed.

I beg to differ, but if thats what you want to think, I doubt I can change your mind.

How what is done? Remain standing? The same takedown defenses apply to multiples as to single opponents. The same techniques to standup and to recover from positions. SAMBO guys and sometimes other guys drill this.

You said:

A good MMA fighter would be using his takedown defense to try to stay OFF the ground in a situation when most other people would have been knocked down by the group. If caught on the ground, he could regain his feet quicker, and if not immediately possible, utilize guard to keep people from mounting directly on top of him.

I'm not talking about someone trying to mount the person on the ground, I'm talking about 2, 3, 4, 5, or more people around the guy on the ground. Sure, the legs can be used to fend off one person. I've done this drill many times. What I want to know is how the BJJ, Judo, Sambo guy is going to defend mult. attackers.

 

[Rook]

No? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but in a number of your posts, you make reference to TMAs not being on the same level as MMA.

Correct. I didn't say that TMAs did not work at all. I said that MMA works much better and that a capable MMAist will normally beat his TMA equivalent.

This was what I quoted from you:

Yes. Let me put it this way: legitimate TMA is an distinct improvement over untrained fighting, and MMA is a distinct improvement over TMA.

You're assuming that what works in the ring is always going to work outside of the ring.

I don't seem much to indicate that it wouldn't. Heck, if the octagon is far from the street, the dojo and for that matter the feudal japanese battlefield is a whole lot further.

And you know this how? Again, you're assuming that we're going to be facing someone who is highly skilled in takedowns.

I assumed the same two opponents facing off in a ring and then in an alley. I think we are agreed that the average person one is likely to face in the street is much less capable than the ring-fighters, and is less likely to be capable at all manner of fighting, including takedowns.

I beg to differ, but if thats what you want to think, I doubt I can change your mind.

The best I have are the police studies. They aren't the same level of proof as the cagefights are for unarmed tactics, but they paint a general picture of what works. The conclusions just aren't as comprehensive as unarmed fighting, and so I don't argue that the tactics the Gracies, Ken and Frank Shamrock, et al etc etc are teaching police departments are any better or worse than the TMA stuff.

I'm not talking about someone trying to mount the person on the ground, I'm talking about 2, 3, 4, 5, or more people around the guy on the ground. Sure, the legs can be used to fend off one person. I've done this drill many times. What I want to know is how the BJJ, Judo, Sambo guy is going to defend mult. attackers.

You can stay off the ground. Use the takedown defense to keep people from putting you down there, use standard fare to get up as quickly as possible if you end up down there for any reason, and use the strikes and throws. You can drill kicks from the ground against multiple attackers too... I have done it a couple times and it is hard... definately just a stopgap until you can get back on your feet.

 

[Rook]

You should. I find it to be a very funny movie.

Ok.

Wrong. I don't have (readily available) anything meets YOUR criteria for proof.

Testimony and other forms of evidence have been enough for courts of law and historians for thousands of years and is STILL good enough for courts and historians.

Imagine how many psychopaths would be running the streets if the courts insisted on videotaped "proof" before making a determination.

Besides: there is plenty of videotape proof. But everytime you are presented with it, you redefine what you see to match your preconceptions.

Its also given us all sorts of garbage about aliens, the Loch Ness monster, the daily Elvis-is-alive sightings, the chi powers of chinese masters, the bullet dodging abilities of Ueshiba, etc. For fighting, when it is so easy to get video in any prearranged match, there is no reason why anyone and everyone claiming to be a great fighter themselves shouldn't have a video record.

GSP and Chuck Liddell are both examples of what happens if a TMAist decides to throw his hat into the UFC.

There isn't much TMA about Chuck Liddell. He is an NCAA nationalist freestyle wrestler (not a TMA), a BJJ purplebelt (not a TMA), a kickboxer (not a TMA) and a kempoist (sortof, the hall is kempo only in name). His training is very much a product of the MMA world around him.

But because they began to train specifically for the event, you redefine them as "MMAists."

I redefined nothing. I doubt that Chuck Liddell, of all people, would deny training MMA and say he is a traditional martial artist, and I doubt you will find any traditional fighting system that turns out fighters that fight in the same manner as he does.

The Gracies wear judo uniforms, are an offshoot of Judo, use a colored/black belt system, have a "lineage" etc. — but you want them to be on the MMA side of the discussion so you declare they are, in fact, MMAists, and use them to back up your arguments.

The Gracies are the people who coined the term "mixed martial arts" in the context we know it today. Their fighters were probably among the first crop of what we call MMA - groundsfighters who trained in boxing and kickboxing, people who absorbed what worked for them in the ring and tossed out the rest. They have a lineage, yes, but that has never been the justification for their system.

The things I see on TV when it comes to MMA beating down TMA is MMA fighters facing unskilled TMAists — not top fighters

Its interesting that this keeps coming up. I think everything that needs to be said on it has been. I'll leave it here.

Too small of a sample to determine anything. Acceptable samples require thousands, not dozens or hundreds, of samples.

Nothing stops more people from trying. In the absense of more TMAists, we have to go with the (rather consistant) proof we have to date.

Nothing conclusive at this point. Although I'd like to point out that GSP and Liddell are doing pretty well.

Not TMAists.

First UFCs covered TMAs vs TMAs. MMA, as you define it, didn't exist yet.

It was just being formed. At the begining, it was just BJJ with a little bit of standup, later became the "big four" hybrid we know today. Boxing, wrestling, kickboxing, muay thai etc, btw, are ussually considered as sports systems rather than traditional systems - they take what works in the ring or competition floor and adapt to that, full speed full resistance training etc.

So we could find out what the OPTIMUM techniques are. So you can control the experiment and conclusively determine what the deciding factors are (as opposed to level of conditioning, strength, age, etc.)

Conditioning and strength matter, so do the rest. Part of the reason those techniques are considered best is how they can be trained for - how well they are supplemented by modern sports training methods. Part of the reason they are preferable is how they can be trained.

 

[Doc]

Gee, I have to go with Scott and Exile on this. Let's see Jigoro Kano was teaching throws, arm bars, rear naked chokes etc. etc. etc. way before MMA and the UFC deemed them optimal. I have a dan in Judo, I have competed in countless Judo competition. For the love of God I represented the Marine Corps in Judo. So I believe I may be marginally knowledgeable about the art and sport.

Now, we all know that BJJ is a TMA based on JJJ. Afterall, Helio learned from a Japanese champion that taught Count someone or another. By the way Kano taught the student that taught the guy that taught Helio. The history of BJJ was taught with minor modifications until one of Helio's son "Made it his own" In the book they called the Gracie, "Frail and Sickly", whichever one is big on the "Gracie Diet".

So, in my line of thinking it seems that BJJ is based more on Judo the sport than art, so making a sport into a fighting art is ridiculous. Afterall, MMA is a sport. The UFC is sport based. Dana White, Matt Hughes along with countless others have said it.

You know, not to many people knew this.

 

[MJS]

Correct. I didn't say that TMAs did not work at all. I said that MMA works much better and that a capable MMAist will normally beat his TMA equivalent.

Actually, you said this:

but what could be a better unarmed fighting method than the one that comes out on top of all the unarmed fights that involves it?

This is a ring setting. It is not taking into consideration any of the real world possibilities. If you want to say that its the best, then I'd rephrase what you mean, and say that its the best in a controlled setting, not necessarily the best in every situation.

Yes. Let me put it this way: legitimate TMA is an distinct improvement over untrained fighting, and MMA is a distinct improvement over TMA.

What determines legit TMA in your eyes?

I don't seem much to indicate that it wouldn't. Heck, if the octagon is far from the street, the dojo and for that matter the feudal japanese battlefield is a whole lot further.

Unless you know how everyone trains, the above statement is moot.

I assumed the same two opponents facing off in a ring and then in an alley. I think we are agreed that the average person one is likely to face in the street is much less capable than the ring-fighters, and is less likely to be capable at all manner of fighting, including takedowns.

Ok.

The best I have are the police studies. They aren't the same level of proof as the cagefights are for unarmed tactics, but they paint a general picture of what works. The conclusions just aren't as comprehensive as unarmed fighting, and so I don't argue that the tactics the Gracies, Ken and Frank Shamrock, et al etc etc are teaching police departments are any better or worse than the TMA stuff.

Like I said my friend, you're going to have your own thoughts and opinions, and I doubt that I can change them.

You can stay off the ground. Use the takedown defense to keep people from putting you down there, use standard fare to get up as quickly as possible if you end up down there for any reason, and use the strikes and throws. You can drill kicks from the ground against multiple attackers too... I have done it a couple times and it is hard... definately just a stopgap until you can get back on your feet.

Back at post #121, I quoted you as saying this:

A good MMA fighter would be using his takedown defense to try to stay OFF the ground in a situation when most other people would have been knocked down by the group. If caught on the ground, he could regain his feet quicker, and if not immediately possible, utilize guard to keep people from mounting directly on top of him.

The key words here are "try to stay off the ground." Lets say that the MMA fighter is unable to maintain his balance and falls. Now, you have him on the ground, with one person in front of his legs, behind his head and to the left and right of him. My question: How is he going to go about defending this?

Mike

 

[dok]

The key words here are "try to stay off the ground." Lets say that the MMA fighter is unable to maintain his balance and falls. Now, you have him on the ground, with one person in front of his legs, behind his head and to the left and right of him. My question: How is he going to go about defending this?

how would anyone defend against this? I dont see where you're goin.

 

[Rook]

Actually, you said this:

I don't think that in any way contradicted what I said above. Each time MMA and TMA clash, MMA ends up coming out on top.

This is a ring setting. It is not taking into consideration any of the real world possibilities. If you want to say that its the best, then I'd rephrase what you mean, and say that its the best in a controlled setting, not necessarily the best in every situation.

I said that its the best at unarmed fighting, and that it came out on top each time its proponents faced off with others claiming to do better. I didn't say it was the best in every situation, simply that it was the optimum method of fighting unarmed that is available.

What determines legit TMA in your eyes?

I said legitimate in the hope of distinguishing between the qi-peddlers and actual systems. Lets say legitimate systems are those like TKD, karate in forms that were actually on Okinawa and Japan, CMA that has actually been heard of in China and that doesn't rely on qi-blasts etc. Illegitimate will cover stuff like Wong Kit Kiew, Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, George Dillman... people like them and arts like their's - include any of the karate systems no one on Japan and Okinawa has heard of and things of that nature. ZDom and MattM pointed out that I have a tendancy to mix the fake or borderline TMAists with the people who actually do train in a real system.

Back at post #121, I quoted you as saying this:



The key words here are "try to stay off the ground." Lets say that the MMA fighter is unable to maintain his balance and falls. Now, you have him on the ground, with one person in front of his legs, behind his head and to the left and right of him. My question: How is he going to go about defending this?

Mike

Get up as quickly as possible. I've done this drill with three people wearing pads and one behind and one in front as a starting point means you're in pretty bad shape.

 

[eyebeams]

I practice kung fu and I train in grappling. Here are some insights:

1) Kung fu is a general name for a bunch of related cultural practices used to promote health, enact religious rituals and deal with civil and military violence. Different types have different emphases.

2) Most grappling methods are organized sports designed to achieve specific objectives in a sport arena, with complementary application outside of it.

3) Sports performance is testable across large samples and can be continually, reliably refined. That's a tremendous advantage. The conclusions in terms of training methods can't be ignored. Superior martial artists focus on athletic fitness and a few reliable techniques. These techniques are fairly consistent across arts; there's not really much new in the way of technique.

4) If you practice kung fu, you might train these core techniques with resistance -- but you might not. It depends on the purpose of the school. If you train in MMA, you *always* train this core.

5) Both methods have unlikely peripheral techniques. Take a look at GJJ's actual self-defense syllabus at some point.

6) Frankly, MMA supports proficient fighters and nurtures them in a way that most Chinese arts just don't. There's a culture devoted to finding and training the best and applying their lessons to everyone else.

7) Conversely, the yardstick in discussoons like this tends to be unbalanced. The average grappler is just some shmoe. A pro or veteran am MMA fighter will wipe the floor with a kung fu hobbyist, but with equal commitment things aren't really so assured. Over on BullyouknowwheredotCom, there was a rather infamous little vid where one of the site's main trash-talkers was nicely schooled by a Tai Chi guy. These were two guys with about equal commitment. You also have Asia from there using pure Baji to knock the crap out of someone. It didn't matter what the other guy trained it; Asia's a lifelong dedicated martial artist and the other was . . . average.

8) More martial artists really need to admit that they *are* hobbyists instead of part of a hierarchy that includes professional fighters. Very few people are meant to do the difficult, optimal training required of professional fighters.

9) But at the same time, every martial art should features training with dynamic resistance using small a set of reliable techniques and introduce peripheral specialties later.

10) Lastly, the average fight for the average person isn't really much like an MMA match. It's chaotic and a lot of crazy stuff that looks "low percentage" works at the right time and place. One example are wrist controls, which I've used with good effect even though they would never work in an MMA match. Conversely, I wouldn't want to DLT and choke somebody I actually want to persuade to leave the room. Taking somebody down to make them go away is kind of contradictory.

 

[matt.m]

I have always said, and will stand by this......"How, I trained and competed in Randori and sparring is absolutely nothing like I fight." The above post is hitting the nail on the head in that regard.

Contest=Gym and ruleset.
Fight=Anywhere and anything goes. Exile used one of the Marine Corps most admirable quotes among we the combat veterans. "It is better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6."

 

[7starmantis]

I've been reading the last few pages of this thread. It seems there are a few issues still needing to be addressed, eyebeams post did a great job of it.

1. Unbalanced Training. Lets take the average MMA and CMA school and see which students walk out the most sweaty. Its obvious most MMAist train very hard with full power and intensity while most CMA hobbyist do not. Why in the world would anyone even consider comparing those two? I've said it before, the nature of most MMA techniques is they are basic techniques that are not extremely harmfull to the opponent and can thus be applied at full pwoer and speed without serious concern for safety. That type of training is going to excel above any type of training that half heartedly pulls punches, misses kicks on purpose, etc. We need to define the comparison here, or we just have a fruitless circular argument....much like the one going on now.
2. Observer Bias, meaning, what makes Kevin feel MMAist can....let me quote:

   A good MMA fighter would be using his takedown defense to try to stay OFF the ground in a situation when most other people would have been knocked down by the group. If caught on the ground, he could regain his feet quicker, and if not immediately possible, utilize guard to keep people from mounting directly on top of him.

   Why does Kevin feel these attributes are effective for MMAist and not TMAist? I completely agree with this statement but change MMA to CMA in this quote and I would agree as well. Why does the fact that MMA can do something good negate that anything else can also do something good?
3. Acceptable "Proof". Kevin contradicted himself on this point in this post:

   Its also given us all sorts of garbage about aliens, the Loch Ness monster, the daily Elvis-is-alive sightings, the chi powers of chinese masters, the bullet dodging abilities of Ueshiba, etc. For fighting, when it is so easy to get video in any prearranged match, there is no reason why anyone and everyone claiming to be a great fighter themselves shouldn't have a video record.

   Speaking about video proof here we see Kevin explain why its not a viable factual proof and then go on to say there is no excuse for not having it or relying on it. So why is video proof so neccessary when physical experience is so easy to be had?
4. Personal Experience. By this I mean the training habits and experiences of those posting. I thought I was debating with an active MMAist currently training for competition and now I understand that is not so? I would be interested to hear Kevin answer some of the questions on his training and what he has done since his karate. It seems everyone else contributing is more than willing to offer that type of "proof" if you will.
5. Unrealistic Attribution. Saying a controlled environment with competent and sportsmanlike fighters is anything like a life or death situation is naive at best. While it does offer a sense of reality that does a great deal for realistic fighters it is simply not the uncontrolled environment and situation that a life or death struggle is. To ignore such proof as police reports and realistic "street fights" that happen everyday where peopel are killed and maimed in brawls for a controlled sporting event and then try to use that controlled environment to attribute training for the first is absurd. It seems the UFC champions are more in touch with the reality of what they do than the fans that sit home and act out the fights in their backyards. The fighters will tell you what they do and will not hold it for something its not. There are crossover skills of course, but they will tell you they aren't training to take out PCP influenced criminals seeking to kill them for the $5 in their pocket. Its a different skill set, one that any true "fighter" should be honest about and look at their own training and determine why they train and understand what it is they are actually doing.

As far as sport fighting goes, I have yet to see Kevin answer any of my questions from pages back about what defines MMA and TMA. What training habits or methods are used in MMA that aren't in TMA? What makes this MMA person (superman) he keeps refering to different from the TMA (frail) person he speaks of? He keeps saying, "a good MMA fighter could..." but says, "a TMA person just couldn't..." Why is this? What seperates the two people you are talking about Kevin? Most of the techniques MMAist use in their training are techniques I use as well....so why the huge difference in skill or effectiveness? You have as of yet refused to explain your viewpoints on the advantages of MMA (whatever they may be) and the disadvantages of TMA (whatever they may be). I mean Matt Hughes seemed to be unabel to continue fighting from just one or two glancing kicks to the groin, but we are supposed to believe that a solid full power knee to the groin will be laughed off by serious MMAist or any male fighter for that matter? Sorry, medicine negates that theory, just look up medical examples of crushed testicles for your proof in that matter. Explain to me why a groin kick or tear will work against the average Joe who attacks you but be laughed off by the MMAist who trains avoiding that type of contact and wears protective gear for any slight contact that may occur?

7sm

 

[Rook]

I've been reading the last few pages of this thread. It seems there are a few issues still needing to be addressed, eyebeams post did a great job of it.

1. Unbalanced Training. Lets take the average MMA and CMA school and see which students walk out the most sweaty. Its obvious most MMAist train very hard with full power and intensity while most CMA hobbyist do not. Why in the world would anyone even consider comparing those two? I've said it before, the nature of most MMA techniques is they are basic techniques that are not extremely harmfull to the opponent and can thus be applied at full pwoer and speed without serious concern for safety. That type of training is going to excel above any type of training that half heartedly pulls punches, misses kicks on purpose, etc. We need to define the comparison here, or we just have a fruitless circular argument....much like the one going on now.

The one I have run with is that of a medium to high quality professional MMA fighter against anyone TMAs can put against him. Whether the argument is "our training methods are superior/different but equally good/the same" the proof required is the same - winning matches.

Observer Bias, meaning, what makes Kevin feel MMAist can....let me quote: Why does Kevin feel these attributes are effective for MMAist and not TMAist? I completely agree with this statement but change MMA to CMA in this quote and I would agree as well. Why does the fact that MMA can do something good negate that anything else can also do something good?

I throw the same boxing punches as Ali and Marciano. How come I'm not as good? Heck, there are people at a boxing gym a couple blocks away from where I live who train the same exact same punches and the exact same footwork on the same bags in the same manner in the same ratios for the same number of hours. How come they aren't as good?

We CANNOT and must not ASSUME equivalent ability based on similar or even seemingly identical training. We assume equivalent ability based on equivalent actual performance - and NOTHING else - not lineage, not bag hitting, not hours of training, not theory.

Acceptable "Proof". Kevin contradicted himself on this point in this post: Speaking about video proof here we see Kevin explain why its not a viable factual proof and then go on to say there is no excuse for not having it or relying on it. So why is video proof so neccessary when physical experience is so easy to be had?

Where did I say video was not sufficient as factual proof? I think that was ZDom discussing superman on the silver screen, not me.

Personal Experience. By this I mean the training habits and experiences of those posting. I thought I was debating with an active MMAist currently training for competition and now I understand that is not so? I would be interested to hear Kevin answer some of the questions on his training and what he has done since his karate. It seems everyone else contributing is more than willing to offer that type of "proof" if you will.

I'm not sure how that is directly relavent. I have nowhere relied on personal experiance in my arguments and don't intend to. I am still active in training karate, so I'm sure what you mean about "since" it.

Unrealistic Attribution. Saying a controlled environment with competent and sportsmanlike fighters is anything like a life or death situation is naive at best. While it does offer a sense of reality that does a great deal for realistic fighters it is simply not the uncontrolled environment and situation that a life or death struggle is. To ignore such proof as police reports and realistic "street fights" that happen everyday where peopel are killed and maimed in brawls for a controlled sporting event and then try to use that controlled environment to attribute training for the first is absurd. It seems the UFC champions are more in touch with the reality of what they do than the fans that sit home and act out the fights in their backyards. The fighters will tell you what they do and will not hold it for something its not. There are crossover skills of course, but they will tell you they aren't training to take out PCP influenced criminals seeking to kill them for the $5 in their pocket. Its a different skill set, one that any true "fighter" should be honest about and look at their own training and determine why they train and understand what it is they are actually doing.

I don't act out fights in my backyard and I resent the implication.

As far as sport fighting goes, I have yet to see Kevin answer any of my questions from pages back about what defines MMA and TMA. What training habits or methods are used in MMA that aren't in TMA? What makes this MMA person (superman) he keeps refering to different from the TMA (frail) person he speaks of? He keeps saying, "a good MMA fighter could..." but says, "a TMA person just couldn't..." Why is this? What seperates the two people you are talking about Kevin? Most of the techniques MMAist use in their training are techniques I use as well....so why the huge difference in skill or effectiveness? You have as of yet refused to explain your viewpoints on the advantages of MMA (whatever they may be) and the disadvantages of TMA (whatever they may be). I mean Matt Hughes seemed to be unabel to continue fighting from just one or two glancing kicks to the groin, but we are supposed to believe that a solid full power knee to the groin will be laughed off by serious MMAist or any male fighter for that matter?

You do realize there are lots of fighting tournaments that groin blows are allowed in? This includes everything from Kyokushin and some muay thai to Finnfight, the early UFCs, most of the Vale Tudos, the AFCs and lots of other tournaments. Why don't you look at the outcomes of those fights instead of assuming what the outcome will be? Fights have been ended by purposeful groin shots (Jon Son vs. Hackney), but the overwhelming majority of the time it doesn't.

Sorry, medicine negates that theory, just look up medical examples of crushed testicles for your proof in that matter. Explain to me why a groin kick or tear will work against the average Joe who attacks you but be laughed off by the MMAist who trains avoiding that type of contact and wears protective gear for any slight contact that may occur?

7sm

You do realize that lots of people, including some MMAists, kyokushin karate, many muay thai people etc. do train with full power attacks to the groin fully allowed in their sparring? You do realize it appears in competitions?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

has anybody else noticed the similarities between this thread and the one about religions going on elsewhere in the forum?

 

[zDom]

I throw the same boxing punches as Ali and Marciano. How come I'm not as good?

Some fighters are simply better than others. They know when to use which punch. Timing, instinct. Heart.

It's not a matter of being taught some "optimal" technique or some superior secret super training method. If only it was that easy.

And they are professional fighters, training as full time athletes as opposed to six to seven hour per week as hobbyist like you and I.

What you are seeing on TV are those who had some natural aptitude developed with a lot of sweat equity.

 

[Flying Crane]

For fighting, when it is so easy to get video in any prearranged match, there is no reason why anyone and everyone claiming to be a great fighter themselves shouldn't have a video record.

Personally, I don't see any reason to have a video record of this. Are you really advocating creating a video library of all of one's challenge fights, brawls, and whatnot? Especially if they are not part of some big sanctioned event like the UFC, and instead are just the smalltime fights that you get into in your own neighborhood? if someone actually did this, I for one would question their motivations and just what kind of a sick minded person they are. It's just a little twisted to want to collect a bunch of video of yourself beating people up. Not to mention the video evidence you are creating the first time someone decides to press criminal charges against you for assault and battery. The very notion of expecting this expresses some pretty questionable morals and ethics...

my god, can't this thread die...