Training vs Flair/Natural Ability

[light dancer]

Unlike some martial arts (e.g. taekwondo, kendo) iaido isn't physically challenging (perhaps apart from stamina requirements). So you might think that if you train regularly (e.g. 2-3 times a week) that you should be demonstrably better than someone who trains only a third of that time or less. However, that's not the case. Some people have obviously got "it", even if they don't train often. In your view, what is this "it" which leaps out in an iaido performance and says "wow" irrespective of how often someone trains? If regular and consistent training doesn't produce the "wow" factor, what does? And how do you get it?

 

[Archangel M]

An intense quality of concentration and purpose. If you have that and a "natural flair" for athletics or body kinesthetics you can go far in terms of appearance. Now..actual fighting ability? Dealing with a resisting opponent? Thats a different story.

 

[light dancer]

Is that "intense quality" more easily evidenced by serious martial artists; or is it an artifice readily reproduced by any good drama and/or dance student?

 

[Joe1957]

Unlike some martial arts (e.g. taekwondo, kendo) iaido isn't physically challenging (perhaps apart from stamina requirements). So you might think that if you train regularly (e.g. 2-3 times a week) that you should be demonstrably better than someone who trains only a third of that time or less. However, that's not the case. Some people have obviously got "it", even if they don't train often. In your view, what is this "it" which leaps out in an iaido performance and says "wow" irrespective of how often someone trains? If regular and consistent training doesn't produce the "wow" factor, what does? And how do you get it?

Great question that I am waiting for responses also.

I am not an overly physical man, not out of shape though but, do take instruction pretty good and understand. I do NOT have allot of.......natural finesse so, I am hoping I can gain that along the way. I think one has to be born with such a quality, I have always had to work for mine.

 

[pgsmith]

It has been my experience that everybody learns at a different rate ... in the beginning. In wondering in the past about why that is, the conclusion that I came to is that it has to do with how connected to their body a person is. I can tell someone that they should have their weight evenly distributed, feet properly placed, hips forward, shoulders relaxed, sword perpendicular to the floor. As soon as they make any movement, all or some of it goes out the window.
For those that have prior experience in martial arts or organized sports, making your body do what you tell it to is an easier ability to grasp, since they've already had training in doing just that. Those that have no prior experience tend to take a bit longer to achieve that rapport with their body. Eventually, it evens out and comes down to simply the amount of practice that has occured. For example, if you watch a shodan shinsa (test for first dan), you will see a wide variety of abilities among those testing. If you watch a godan shinsa (fifth dan), the differences between the candidates will be very small.

 

[Nomad]

Is that "intense quality" more easily evidenced by serious martial artists; or is it an artifice readily reproduced by any good drama and/or dance student?

Interesting side question! I think that the intensity can be emulated by a good drama student, but that there would be obvious differences to seniors if you're looking at them side by side. There's a difference between the projection of confidence and the real thing, but the cues can be subtle.

Of course, once the techniques start, the difference between someone faking it and someone who really knows their material would likely be obvious to anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of what they're looking at/for.

 

[pgsmith]

Is that "intense quality" more easily evidenced by serious martial artists; or is it an artifice readily reproduced by any good drama and/or dance student?

The "intense quality" (referred to in most JSA as 'kihaku', or spirit) is the result of much practice, combined with the intense desire to deliver a single killing blow to your enemy. Granted, in iaido your enemy is imaginary, but the feeling should still be there. Once you get to a certain level, you should be able to picture your enemy. If you've practiced long and hard enough, you can make your audience picture your enemy.

Given my definition of what I think you are referring to as 'intense quality', I don't think a good drama or dance student could totally reproduce it. While they may practice long and hard enough, they would still be missing that inner drive to "kill" their enemy.

 

[Ken Morgan]

If you are not sweating and out of breath by the end of a single iaido kata, then you’ve been practicing incorrectly. You should feel like you just ran up a flight of stairs if you executed the kata correctly.

Regular and constant training IS the only way to get good at iaido. There is no exception to that rule. People will progress at a standardized rate in iaido.

To an inexperienced eye, you can not emulate the “drama”. Someone well trained in iai will pick off a handful of major errors and a dozen minor errors very quickly.

What is good iai? This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNQSiI185qQ

What is bad sword? This: http://www.youtube.com/user/MOUNTAINOUS#p/u/46/nLU0BIVkFYw

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh, damn you Ken.... Mountainous damn video.... it'll be ages before I get that out of my head... still laughing..... damn you.....

 

[seasoned]

The "intense quality" (referred to in most JSA as 'kihaku', or spirit) is the result of much practice, combined with the intense desire to deliver a single killing blow to your enemy. Granted, in iaido your enemy is imaginary, but the feeling should still be there. Once you get to a certain level, you should be able to picture your enemy. If you've practiced long and hard enough, you can make your audience picture your enemy.

Given my definition of what I think you are referring to as 'intense quality', I don't think a good drama or dance student could totally reproduce it. While they may practice long and hard enough, they would still be missing that inner drive to "kill" their enemy.

You have hit onto a point that makes all the difference in our training. Some call it Kokoro, (heart or mental attitude). This is, as you have explained above, the important difference. Add proper technique to this, and fun and games are over. :asian: Your point highlighted above is excellent, and a somewhat hard concept reserved for only the most dedicated martial artist.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think natural ability also enters into it - and that means all athletic endeavors, not just sword, and not just martial arts. Some people just have a natural ability that seems to come forward from the first time they try whatever it is that they're suited for.

However, I will note this; in my dojo, I have seen a number of students come in who have great natural talent. They learn quickly, their moves are precise and smooth and they progress so quickly you'd think they had trained before. They seem to just 'get it' and they also seem to be enjoying themselves as they learn.

Then they stop coming to training. We never see them again.

I continue to plod on. No real natural talent for martial arts; I'm slow, heavy, not the best reflexes nor instincts. I only have one thing going for me. I keep coming to training.

I think that's more important, in the end, than natural talent. All the talent in the world won't help you if you don't train. I don't know why those with great talent so often choose to quit; I wonder if it is just because it is not a challenge for them?

 

[Langenschwert]

What is bad sword? This: <snip>

What the hell was that??? You're trying to make me choke on my coffee, aren't you! You're an evil, evil man Ken.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Ken Morgan]

Oh, damn you Ken.... Mountainous damn video.... it'll be ages before I get that out of my head... still laughing..... damn you.....

[/size]

What the hell was that??? You're trying to make me choke on my coffee, aren't you! You're an evil, evil man Ken.

Best regards,

-Mark

You guys should try having a serious sword conversation with him. No matter how polite you are, when you question why he does something a certain way, he very quickly bans you from his board.

Sadly there are thousands of guys like him in their backyards making up kata and cutting pop bottles, which is actually fine by me, its not my business, whatever makes them happy, just don’t call it sword arts please.

Guys like this show up on a regular basis, and last all of one or two classes and think that you have nothing of value to teach them, and therefore traditional JSA are useless as they don’t teach you anything about “real” sword fighting. Whatever.

 

[Langenschwert]

Guys like this show up on a regular basis, and last all of one or two classes

Which falls under the same principle as "if you loan someone $20 and you never see or hear from them again, it was probably worth it". That way they make room for people who are there to learn.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sword-fightin'? I got yer sword-fightin' raht-cheer.

http://www.kaonicks.com/post/2649236205

 

[Ken Morgan]

Sword-fightin'? I got yer sword-fightin' raht-cheer.

http://www.kaonicks.com/post/2649236205

....I can't believe I just spent 7 minutes going through more of that site Bill......
I'm leaving now........

 

[light dancer]

Thanks for all the responses. I have been informed and enlightened in ways I could not possibly have contemplated when I posed my initial question. The internet is a truly wonderful place.

 

[Supra Vijai]

....I can't believe I just spent 7 minutes going through more of that site Bill......
I'm leaving now........

Hahaha I'm going to have to go back and do that when I get home. My manager walked past as I clicked on the link and when the picture popped up his reaction was "you kung fu samurai people are wierd" before walking off

Which falls under the same principle as "if you loan someone $20 and you never see or hear from them again, it was probably worth it". That way they make room for people who are there to learn.

Best regards,

-Mark

One way it was explained to me though was that all these people who come through for kicks and don't really commit etc just fund the dojo (rent/bills what not) so that the serious students can have a place to train