Do vs. Jutsu

[puunui]

Because the only distinction is what term a particular system decides to use... which can change over time. In other words, the only distinction is artificial and inconsistent, so no "real" distinction can ever be made.

Do you see judo, kendo or karatedo switching to another suffix anytime soon?

Just to clear up on ranking systems (the question of Daito Ryu being Koryu being left off for the moment...), there are two different and unrelated ranking systems in place in Japanese martial arts.

I didn't realize there was anything to clear up on ranking systems in japanese martial arts.

Honestly, Glenn, that comment just shows how little your understanding in this area is... there was no Karate in Japan prior to the Showa period (early 20th Century), let alone "Karatedo"... but, for the record, "Karatedo", and, really "Karate" itself, were terms that were adopted after the introduction to Japan in the first place.

Actually there was karate in Japan prior to the showa period (which started in 1926). Funakoshi Sensei came to Japan in 1922 and by 1924, he was giving dan rank to students and also establishing karate clubs in Keio dai and other Japan universities. This is of course assuming that you ignore the fact that Okinawa was annexed by Japan in 1872, was made a Japanese prefecture in 1879, Okinawa citizens were given the right to vote in 1890 and Okinawa remains a part of Japan, as it has been for about 140 years, over 50 years prior to the showa period.

Even if none of that were true, "karate" (written with the characters for "empty hand"), unrelated to the okinawa's toude, is mentioned in 19th century japanese books. Some speculate that this native japanese "karate" inspired Funakoshi Sensei to change the first character from tou or tang, to kara or empty, as a bridge to making toude truly japanese. The term was already known and used in Japan, and if you remember, the objections to the character change from tang to empty came from Okinawa and Okinawans, not Japan or mainland Japanese.

There was also never a term used "Karatejutsu" either, so looking for that isn't going to help you in finding a distinction between "jutsu" and "do". Early terms used in Okinawa were primarily Te, Tode, Shuri-te, Naha-te etc.

That would be a valid argument if we ignored the following book titles:

Rentan Goshin Toude-jutsu (1925) by FUNAKOSHI Gichin
Ryukyu Kenpo Toude-jutsu. Kumite-hen' (1926) by MOTOBU Choki
Watashino Toude-jutsu' (1932) by MOTOBU Choki

I would also point out that two of three books listed above were published prior to the showa period, which started in late December 1926 with the beginning of the reign of Emperor Hirohito. Of course you could argue that toudejutsu is not the same term as karatejutsu, but that really isn't a valid argument, seeing how the books were published in Japan for Japanese readers.

But if you want to look to usage of "Do" versus "Jutsu" from before the Meiji restoration, the term Judo was known to be used in the Jikishin Ryu in the early 18th Century (there is documentation from Inoue Jibudayu using that term from 1724), as well as probably being used earlier, Kendo was used interchangably with Kenjutsu or Kenpo since the late 16th Century, as well as many other examples.

I was thinking about this last night, about the whole battlefield concept, koryu, self improvement, do jutsu, etc. I then realized that since the Tokugawa era, there really was no battlefield wars being fought, and there wasn't any for over 350 years. So really, all the martial arts during that entire period consisted of arts being passed down by practitioners who had no battlefield experience themselves. Perhaps there were some bushi had to "defend" themselves against attacks, but in general Japan was a peaceful, non-violent country, with a disarmed people (with the exception of the samurai), just like it is today. So really what you had were archaic antiquated martial arts being "preserved", but not used, which lead eventually to "contest" type challenges to test one's skill, such that today, we have "sports" like judo, kendo, and karatedo (which has been shortlisted for consideration by the IOC for inclusion into the 2020 Olympic Games).

I really don't know where your argument about the lack of "jutsu" or "do" in Iai systems is by citing a Naginata school...
Additionally, I might point out that the site you linked itself shows some rather obvious errors, such as the use of the incorrect spelling "jitsu", the very odd (elongated) grip on the bokken in the picture on the "history" page, the lack of the term Atarashii Naginata (which is the actual term for the modern Naginata-do, and literally means "new naginata"), instead using the Zennichi Naginata name... which is the grouping that created Atarashii Naginata, not the system itself. I'm not saying anything against the teachings of the instructor there (Miura Sensei), as there isn't anything that looks particularly out of place. The 8th Dan ranking is legitimately used in Jikishinkage Ryu, the mention of Kusarigama and tanto are certainly part of the system, however I might question the "only high ranking instructor outside of Japan"... might need to look into that one. But overall, the site has issues.

Someone else brought up the topic of naginata in an earlier post in this thread, it came to mind, so I put it in. But if you have any issues about language, claims, techniques or whatever else, I suggest you contact Miura Sensei directly and tell her how you feel. I am sure she would appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

Nope, I'd pretty much disagree with that entirely. Some arts that use the term "do" post Meiji are concerned with self discovery, or personal development, but others aren't in the slightest. Jukendo, for instance, developed in the early 20th Century out of sojutsu (spear fighting) primarily to give the Japanese military methods of killing people with bayonets when they invaded Manchuria and other areas. No real spiritual ideal there, just stabbing (in some cases) unarmed populaces, women, children, surrendering and malnourished prisoners, and so on.

You're thinking about jukenjutsu, an art which was taught at the Toyama Military Academy during the meiji period. Jukendo is an art comparable to kendo, except they use wooden rifle looking implements and kendo looking gear when engaged in matches. Here is an example:

But you said that you disagree with that part you quoted in its entirety. However, you did not go into detail about the majority of that passage, which had to do with the development of Kong Soo Do in Korea. What do you disagree with regarding that, and why? Here is the passage you said you disagreed with in its entirety:

"But the arts that do use it post meiji restoration are for the most part self discovery focused arts, as opposed to the above art. Kong Soo Do especially as the term was used in Korea during the 1950s was a name used because Dr. YON Kwai Byeong wanted to be associated with Karatedo on mainland Japan, for tournament purposes. When the name issue was raised in 1961, his main point was that the art should be called Kong Soo Do, so it could easily be a part of the internationalization of karatedo and its future as a sport. to that end, he started taking teams from Korea to for exchange matches, in preparation for when karate tournaments did go international, like it is today."

I think you discussed why you disagreed with the first sentence, but not the rest of the paragraph.

Then you have systems pre-Meiji which did deal with personal development.

I am sure there are, given the fact that there were no battlefield action in Japan for over 350 years during the Tokugawa period. I'm sure that the majority realized at some point that their skills would never be used for the battlefield and instead turned to other philosophical reasons to continue training.

In short, "Do" does not imply sport, it does not imply "personal development over efficacy", all it implies is that the term used is "Do".

That is, if you ignore the elephants in the room such as Jujutsu/Judo, Kenjutsu/Kendo, Karatejutsu/Karatedo and now, baby elephant Jukenjutsu/Jukendo.

You know how to distinguish, using terminology, between TKD practitioners who focus on sport and those who don't? Easy. They say they're training in, you'll love this, "sport Tae Kwon Do". Or not.

I prefer not to mix languages, like your preference. But assuming we take your suggestion, does that mean that we should be calling it sport judo, sport kendo, sport jukendo, sport karatedo as well? Why do that when people already know these arts are sport oriented and sport focused already, with the addition of the sport prefix?

So you're basing your understanding of terminology in Japanese martial traditions on what is around the corner from you, and nothing else?

No, just giving examples from around the corner, in response to Kong Soo Do.

And yes, sometimes just the term "Ken" is used to refer to a sword art. Oftentimes it's just a form of shorthand, but it does show the lack of importance for the suffix itself.

Just because someone uses a shorthand doesn't necessarily show a lack of importance to the suffix itself.

"Superior people"? Even the most ardent Koryu snobs don't really think that way... the IHS included.

I was responding to Kong Soo Do's post, which mentioned "superior people". That's not from me.

I will say that I don't agree with Kong Soo Do in a number of his comments, such as there even being a distinction between "jutsu" and "do", that "jutsu" refers to systems concerned only with technicalities, and so on... and most importantly that he is going to a dojo and studying Bu(do or jutsu), as he is training in a Korean system, so, by definition, he's not in a dojo or training in Budo or Bujutsu. Yeah, it sounds pedantic and picky, but it's like saying that my Japanese arts are being taught in a kwoon and training kung fu. Nope, not at all.

I agree. I don't think it is a good idea for taekwondoin to use japanese terms or karateka to use chinese terms. I think it leads to confusion and gives people the wrong idea, that these things don't matter. Sort of like saying there is no difference between the terms do and jutsu. There is a difference, although I will agree that people disregard that difference and say that it doesn't matter.

Not wanting to answer for Ken, but I really don't see the relevance. The "jutsu/do" argument really has nothing to do with Tae Kwon Do, sport applications or not at all. There is no connection, there is no distinction, and there is no terminology issue that isn't solved with adding the word "Sport" to TKD if applicable.

So if I walk into a kendo dojo and start calling the art kenjutsu, and the teacher tries to correct me, then my response to him is that there is no distinction between do and jutsu? Let me try that and see how it goes.

Draeger Sensei was instrumental in the popularization and education of the classical Japanese martial arts by introducing them to a Western audience who were largely ignorant of the very fact that there was anything older than Judo in Japan. As such he was attempting to find a way to explain a range of things, and some things (such as the jutsu/do distinction) were largely simplified to the point of inaccuracy (compared to the way they were seen and used in Japan). One other factor that has been put forth is that Draeger Sensei was not American by birth (although he was a Marine in the US Military), he was German. And German was his first language, with English being second, and Japanese third (in fact, his Japanese level has been described as "adequate, but not fluent"). The over specificity of German terminology and culture could very easily be a factor in his attempts to completely pigeonhole the terms he came across in Japan.

Either that or the over specificity of German terminology and culture is what made Draeger Sensei define those terms precisely, said precision being largely ignored by today's practitioners. But thank you for your response. It relieves me of my obligation to go confirm what Draeger Sensei wrote and having to write all of that out in a post.

So while his place in the understanding and development of Koryu in the West is very highly regarded, some of the information he put out is not considered accurate. It's a matter of learning what to listen to, and what to ignore.

We agree on that point. And you must regard him highly, because you referred to him as Draeger Sensei, and not simply Draeger. I don't think you do that too often, not even with the head of your style, you I remember you often refer to as simply Hatsumi.

Then you might be amazed at how little most of the Japanese in Japan know or care about such aspects as the terminology in martial traditions. Blood doesn't mean as much as knowledge and interest.

But if they do have interest, the knowledge comes much easier and quicker, due to their understanding of Japanese culture, and language. When I wrote that, I was thinking more along the lines of my own situation I suppose. I am not korean by birth or blood, but I have focused on the korean martial arts of late. I did study japanese martial arts primarily growing up, which among other things impressed upon me the importance of learning and understanding the root culture and language of the arts, because it is so intertwined with the martial arts. So I try as much as possible to study korean culture and language. I ask millions of questions, read all the books, try to practice as much as possible to where I get to a point that I think that I am finally getting it. Then I will see a 16 year old korean born boy with no training, naturally and easily demonstrate his understanding of korean language and culture that blows past my poor and meager attempts to learn. It is humbling to come to the realization that he does so easily what I cannot do, at least to his level, even though I have been studying and trying for more than twice as long as he has been alive. It's to the point where I don't think I will ever get it, at least not to the level of that 16 year old boy.

But if you or Paul or others think that you can suppass a Japanese person in this way, then more power to you. I am unwilling to do that, at least at this point.

Well, Draeger Sensei died in 1982, so it might be hard to get a definite answer... but, as said, his take on jutsu/do is not considered the most accurate that you can find.

Not considered the most accurate, by some. But it's ok.

Tell you what, let's spell it out. The structure that Don Draeger employed to distinguish why he was using separate terms (Bujutsu and Budo) does not match the usage of such terms in Japan, let alone Japanese martial arts... but the average Japanese would most likely not even be aware of that.

If you say so.

Other than the books you've already got, I'd visit www.koryu.com, chat with Meik Skoss (who knew Draeger sensei himself), and the IHS. See what they say now, rather than what was written 30 years ago.

I've known about koryu.com as was Skoss Sensei and his wife, but for some reason I choose not to purchase their books or other materials. I don't know why it is. But I do wish to be polite to you so I took your suggestion and visited koryu.com . I did find a listing of koryu arts, but for some reason they all have the suffix jutsu listed. None have Do. I am sure you have a good lengthy explanation for that about how that doesn't matter and doesn't prove anything.

http://www.koryu.com/guide/ryuguide.html

 

[Sukerkin]

It's okay to have a point of view, it is even good to try and make the case for that point of view. But it is also good to give due credence to the opinions of those who do not agree with you but do know what they are talking about.

This is an odd thing to be having a lengthy disagreement on, for it is indeed the case that every martial artist of rank that I have ever met holds the view that we have espoused here in various ways i.e. Jutsu or Do makes no practical distinction in the name of art with regard to what that art teaches.

 

[puunui]

It's okay to have a point of view, it is even good to try and make the case for that point of view. But it is also good to give due credence to the opinions of those who do not agree with you but do know what they are talking about.

On that note, have you seen this list on koryu.com? Not a single do art listed. I wonder why.

http://www.koryu.com/guide/ryuguide.html

Ryuha list by name

• Araki-ryu kogusoku
• Asayama Ichiden-ryu heiho
• Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
• Higo Ko-ryu naginatajutsu
• Hokushin Itto-ryu kenjutsu
• Hontai Yoshin-ryu jujutsu
  
• Hozoin-ryu Takada-ha sojutsu
• Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu kenjutsu
• Isshin-ryu kusarigamajutsu
• Kage-ryu battojutsu
• Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu
• Kashima Shinryu kenjutsu
• Kashima Shinto-ryu kenjutsu
• Katayama Hoki-ryu iaijutsu
• Kogen Itto-ryu kenjutsu
• Kurama-ryu kenjutsu
• Maniwa Nen-ryu kenjutsu
• Mizoguchi-ha Itto-ryu kenjutsu
• Mugai-ryu iaijutsu
• Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu iaijutsu
• Muso Shinden-ryu iaijutsu
• Ono-ha Itto-ryu kenjutsu
  
• Owari Kan-ryu sojutsu
• Sekiguchi Shinshin-ryu jujutsu
• Shingyoto-ryu kenjutsu
• Shinmuso Hayashizaki-ryu battojutsu
• Shinto Muso-ryu jojutsu
  
• Shojitsu Kenri Kataichi-ryu battojutsu
• Sosuishitsu-ryu jujutsu
• Suio-ryu kenjutsu
• Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin-ryu jujutsu
  
• Takenouchi-ryu jujutsu
• Tamiya-ryu iaijutsu
• Tatsumi-ryu heiho
• Tendo-ryu naginatajutsu
• Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu
• Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu heiho
  
• Toda-ha Buko-ryu naginatajutsu
  
• Toyama-ryu battojutsu
• Uchida-ryu tanjojutsu
• Yagyu Seigo-ryu battojutsu
• Yagyu Shingan-ryu taijutsu
• Yagyu Shinkage-ryu hyoho
  
• Yoshin-ryu naginatajutsu

 

[pgsmith]

I am not korean by birth or blood, but I have focused on the korean martial arts of late. I did study japanese martial arts primarily growing up, which among other things impressed upon me the importance of learning and understanding the root culture and language of the arts, because it is so intertwined with the martial arts. So I try as much as possible to study korean culture and language. I ask millions of questions, read all the books, try to practice as much as possible to where I get to a point that I think that I am finally getting it. Then I will see a 16 year old korean born boy with no training, naturally and easily demonstrate his understanding of korean language and culture that blows past my poor and meager attempts to learn. It is humbling to come to the realization that he does so easily what I cannot do, at least to his level, even though I have been studying and trying for more than twice as long as he has been alive. It's to the point where I don't think I will ever get it, at least not to the level of that 16 year old boy.

I can totally understand that, given the attitude that you've shown in this thread. In order to learn, you first have to assume that you don't already know something. Everything you've written implies that you already know what you know, and you don't care how many people tell you that isn't the way it really is.
I was under the apparently mistaken ompression that you were looking for information, and not just validation of your own ideas. Since that obviously isn't the case, I apologize for intruding in your thread.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

What about for other martial arts? For example, do you agree or disagree with this statement:

I see it as being able to provide proper martial art training to those that need and/or want it. For those that need and/or want training in a martial sport have those venues available. My request is that those that do teach TKD (or any martial sport) as a sport, simply identify it as such for the sake of the student.

You're misunderstanding what I've stated here Glenn. This isn't a 'Do' vs. 'Jutsu' comment. This is a self-defense vs. sport comment. In otherwords, if you are a dojo/dojang that has a sole emphasis on sport application, then don't advertise it as self-defense and vice-versa. There are separate considerations for both.

 

[Sukerkin]

I wonder why that site lists things only in that way too, pu.

The art that I practise is Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido . As I near my fourth dan I ponder, "Could it be that it is the "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu" part that is what defines the art rather than if you put "Iaido" or "Iaijutsu" at the end?".

All I can tell you is what every other koryu sword art practitioner here has already told you. You want to call what I do Iaijutsu, go ahead. I call it Iaido; so does my sensei; so did his sensei. Even more importantly, very senior teachers such as Iwata Sensei made no distinction between the terms; for one means the Way and the other means the Method. There are different shades of interpreted meaning to the words but the kata will be the same either way in technique and intent.

If you choose to make it mean that Do is more about improving yourself and Jutsu is more about a warlike, externalising, mindset then there is nothing to stop you doing so. But it is more useful to have the mindset that there is the calm centre that it yourself and there is a sphere that is marked by the reach of the tip of your sword. Anything that you do not wish to allow within that sphere is going to be cut. {Katsumoto Voice}That is Iai!{/Katsumoto Voice}.

 

[Sanke]

I am sure there are, given the fact that there were no battlefield action in Japan for over 350 years during the Tokugawa period. I'm sure that the majority realized at some point that their skills would never be used for the battlefield and instead turned to other philosophical reasons to continue training.

I just wanted to pick up on this section, the arts Chris was referring to were actually both founded long before the Tokugawa/Edo period, in times where there was an awful lot of 'battlefield action'. The idea that they turned to spiritual development afterwards due to a lack of large scale combat is inaccurate, as both systems have history of being used in such times (that being said, HNIR's history is more about Musashi being a part of 2-3 battles, rather than the school itself being battlefield oriented, but that's neither here nor there.).

 

[puunui]

This isn't a 'Do' vs. 'Jutsu' comment. This is a self-defense vs. sport comment. In otherwords, if you are a dojo/dojang that has a sole emphasis on sport application, then don't advertise it as self-defense and vice-versa. There are separate considerations for both.

oh

 

[puunui]

I can totally understand that, given the attitude that you've shown in this thread. In order to learn, you first have to assume that you don't already know something. Everything you've written implies that you already know what you know, and you don't care how many people tell you that isn't the way it really is.

Actually if you read the quote carefully within the context of my other responses to you, then it is the exact opposite. As for the mob mentality, everyone at one time thought that the earth was flat and if you said otherwise, I suspect that you would get the same reaction that I am getting. But no matter.

I was under the apparently mistaken ompression that you were looking for information, and not just validation of your own ideas. Since that obviously isn't the case, I apologize for intruding in your thread.

I am looking for information, not just unsubstantiated opinions piled on top of each other. But please do not feel that you are intruding. In fact, if you are ever in Hawaii please look me up. I can invite you to the house, we can hang out in the double tatami room upstairs, drink some tea, or if your prefer, some sake and you can tell me all the things that I don't know about the japanese language, culture and martial arts. I also have a lot of japanese art hanging on the walls which you hopefully can explain to me. And I just remembered, this year's USAT nationals/JOs is in Dallas I believe. Maybe we can stop by your dojo and watch a class. Wednesday and Friday nights, right?

PS: Congratulations on winning bronze in the nidan division at the batto do tournament. Your teacher, Sensei Ray Hall, as well as the founder of your Ryu, Sensei Michael Park, must be proud of you.

 

[puunui]

The art that I practise is Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido . As I near my fourth dan I ponder, "Could it be that it is the "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu" part that is what defines the art rather than if you put "Iaido" or "Iaijutsu" at the end?".

I don't know the answer to your pondering question. What I do know is that your style is listed on koryu.com as Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu by Sensei Meik and Sensei Diane Skoss. If you are disturbed by the inaccuracy, then perhaps you should contact them. Please do not get angry at me for checking out a webpage suggested by Parker Sensei.

http://www.koryu.com/guide/eishin.html

All I can tell you is what every other koryu sword art practitioner here has already told you. You want to call what I do Iaijutsu, go ahead. I call it Iaido; so does my sensei; so did his sensei. Even more importantly, very senior teachers such as Iwata Sensei made no distinction between the terms; for one means the Way and the other means the Method.

Again, I don't wish to call what you do iaijutsu; all I did was go to the webpage koryu.com that was suggested by Parker Sensei. The owners of that page calls your art iaijutsu, not me. If you wish to get upset, please get upset at them, not me. It's not my webpage.

There are different shades of interpreted meaning to the words but the kata will be the same either way in technique and intent.

Well, that is different than saying there is no difference between the terms Do and Jutsu. There are differences. You just said so.

If you choose to make it mean that Do is more about improving yourself and Jutsu is more about a warlike, externalising, mindset then there is nothing to stop you doing so. But it is more useful to have the mindset that there is the calm centre that it yourself and there is a sphere that is marked by the reach of the tip of your sword. Anything that you do not wish to allow within that sphere is going to be cut. {Katsumoto Voice}That is Iai!{/Katsumoto Voice}.

Which Katsumoto are you talking about? The one in the movie Last Samurai who was the Emperor's teacher? I don't know who you are talking about.

 

[puunui]

I just wanted to pick up on this section, the arts Chris was referring to were actually both founded long before the Tokugawa/Edo period, in times where there was an awful lot of 'battlefield action'. The idea that they turned to spiritual development afterwards due to a lack of large scale combat is inaccurate, as both systems have history of being used in such times (that being said, HNIR's history is more about Musashi being a part of 2-3 battles, rather than the school itself being battlefield oriented, but that's neither here nor there.).

And I am sure that if a group preserved the battlefield tactics, weaponry and uniforms from the revolutionary war, they also would say that their methods saw a lot of battlefield action, two hundred something years ago. But say no one used those in a war for the next 200 years, but rather they were simply passed down from generation to generation, without being used in a war. Do you think those revolutionary war tactics (marching on the field in bright red uniforms, all in a line, firing flintlocks and then doing a bayonet charge) still hold validity today, because it was field tested over 235 years ago?

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm not upset with you, pu, I don't think you're taking on board what people are saying, which means that we're wasting our time, but that is the extent of it.

It's also important to bear in mind that "You" in English has the annoying useage of being both person specific or general and context doesn't always help tell which is which, especially when both inferences are in the same text.

More definiteively, yes, I do mean Katsumoto from the Last Samurai, specifically stealing the inflection from the passage where he says "Life in every breath; that is bushido!".

 

[Sanke]

And I am sure that if a group preserved the battlefield tactics, weaponry and uniforms from the revolutionary war, they also would say that their methods saw a lot of battlefield action, two hundred something years ago. But say no one used those in a war for the next 200 years, but rather they were simply passed down from generation to generation, without being used in a war. Do you think those revolutionary war tactics (marching on the field in bright red uniforms, all in a line, firing flintlocks and then doing a bayonet charge) still hold validity today, because it was field tested over 235 years ago?

Glenn, you may have missed the point of what I was talking about there.
I was referring to the fact that many koryu schools have a strong emphasis on spiritual development, as well as being ones that saw heavy battlefield use, so the idea that the more 'spiritual' systems were developed post-meji is rather off.

Their effectiveness is a modern context has literally nothing to do with this topic, so I'm not sure why you've answered with this honestly.

As for jutsu vs do, for me, there is only as much separation as the systems say there is.
On that list from koryu.com is Muso Shinden Ryu Iaijustu. I practice in that system, but our particular line (and many others) refer to it as iaido. So which one is it? Personally (if we are sticking to the ridged definitions) I would say both.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say the same about every koryu system I've been exposed to. So yeah, I don't see the difference in that way.


Sanke on the move.

 

[pgsmith]

I am looking for information, not just unsubstantiated opinions piled on top of each other. But please do not feel that you are intruding. In fact, if you are ever in Hawaii please look me up. I can invite you to the house, we can hang out in the double tatami room upstairs, drink some tea, or if your prefer, some sake and you can tell me all the things that I don't know about the japanese language, culture and martial arts. I also have a lot of japanese art hanging on the walls which you hopefully can explain to me.

Nice try, but you don't do smarmy nearly as well as a great many other people I know. Go ahead and feel as superior as you wish (since you're trying so hard), it's a mark of the underlying insecurity that will prevent you from ever feeling good about yourself without outside justification. I know several anime geeks that are friends of my eldest son. I would describe their houses pretty much the same way that you described yours. None of them practice koryu arts either, so they don't have any greater understanding of them than you seem to.

And I just remembered, this year's USAT nationals/JOs is in Dallas I believe. Maybe we can stop by your dojo and watch a class. Wednesday and Friday nights, right?

No, we meet Mondays 6:30 to 9:30. What makes you think I would I want a bunch of Tae Kwon Do people to stop by and interrupt our class?

Congratulations on winning bronze in the nidan division at the batto do tournament. Your teacher, Sensei Ray Hall, as well as the founder of your Ryu, Sensei Michael Park, must be proud of you.

Just so that you're up to date on your information (since you obviously aren't) I was yusho at the last West Coast Batto Do Tai Kai competing in the yondan and up division. Ray Hall was my instructor until he retired from teaching somewhere around 1999 or so. I studied Shin Shin Sekiguchi ryu under Carl McClafferty and Yamada Yoshitaka. I was scheduled to test for my chuden menkyo when knee problems forced me to withdraw from the school (tobiichigai was my downfall). I then began practicing Meishi-ha Mugai ryu under Tony Alvarez and Niina Toyoaki. I am scheduled to test for yondan in that school at this year's gasshuku prior to the West Coast Tai Kai in September.

Now you can update your stalker file so you won't sound quite so foolish. Well, at least not when referring to me.

 

[puunui]

I'm not upset with you, pu,

You sound upset Suk, but if you say you aren't then I believe you.

I don't think you're taking on board what people are saying, which means that we're wasting our time, but that is the extent of it.

I'm taking everything everyone is saying on board. I wonder though, can you say the same thing about what I am saying?

It's also important to bear in mind that "You" in English has the annoying useage of being both person specific or general and context doesn't always help tell which is which, especially when both inferences are in the same text.

This one is a little vague. Are you saying that you used the word "You" in both the person specific and general within the same text of a post, and that you are apologizing for the confusion that may cause?

More definiteively, yes, I do mean Katsumoto from the Last Samurai, specifically stealing the inflection from the passage where he says "Life in every breath; that is bushido!".

I liked the movie the Last Samurai, one of my students played the guy who manned the gattling gun and mowed down every except Tom Cruise towards the end of the movie. Now he plays parts in Hawaii FiveO, along with another student of mine, his best friend. I don't remember the specific quote you are referring to though.

As for learning from Japanese movie characters, I think there can be times when lessons can be gleaned from them. I would also say that sometimes the wrong things can get learned. I don't know if you watch the show on FoodTV called Iron Chef America. It pits the Iron Chefs against high level competitors from around the country, using a certain ingredient that the Chairman (Mark Dacascos) has selected for them. Anyway, before they announce the winner, the Chairman bows to each competitor. Some bow with their hands on their hips, legs spread apart, others look at the chairman's eyes when bowing. Whenever I see that, I wonder if they got that from the Karate Kid movie, where Miyagi Sensei sternly instructs Daniel San to "Look eye! Always look eye!" when bowing.

 

[puunui]

Glenn, you may have missed the point of what I was talking about there.
I was referring to the fact that many koryu schools have a strong emphasis on spiritual development, as well as being ones that saw heavy battlefield use, so the idea that the more 'spiritual' systems were developed post-meji is rather off.

Their effectiveness is a modern context has literally nothing to do with this topic, so I'm not sure why you've answered with this honestly.

As for jutsu vs do, for me, there is only as much separation as the systems say there is.
On that list from koryu.com is Muso Shinden Ryu Iaijustu. I practice in that system, but our particular line (and many others) refer to it as iaido. So which one is it? Personally (if we are sticking to the ridged definitions) I would say both.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say the same about every koryu system I've been exposed to. So yeah, I don't see the difference in that way.

I don't know how I or anyone else was supposed to get your point, given your original post. Here it is for comparison to what you write above:

I just wanted to pick up on this section, the arts Chris was referring to were actually both founded long before the Tokugawa/Edo period, in times where there was an awful lot of 'battlefield action'. The idea that they turned to spiritual development afterwards due to a lack of large scale combat is inaccurate, as both systems have history of being used in such times (that being said, HNIR's history is more about Musashi being a part of 2-3 battles, rather than the school itself being battlefield oriented, but that's neither here nor there.).

But no matter. On to your new points:

I was referring to the fact that many koryu schools have a strong emphasis on spiritual development, as well as being ones that saw heavy battlefield use, so the idea that the more 'spiritual' systems were developed post-meji is rather off.

Sure, they had to, to survive. No argument about that. And I have no doubt that is what is going on today. You have to do what you have to do to get people interested.

Their effectiveness is a modern context has literally nothing to do with this topic, so I'm not sure why you've answered with this honestly.

Because in your prior post, you talked about how "the arts Chris was referring to were actually both founded long before the Tokugawa/Edo period, in times where there was an awful lot of 'battlefield action'". I just made a comment that the "battlefield action" that you are talking about happened in the 1600s. So again, really all these koryu are doing essentially is what they were trying to do during the tokugawa era, which is preserve something that may have been used in battle, hundreds of years ago. And like those who are preserving revolutionary war tactics, strategy, and weapons, there has to be a reason for doing that other than battlefield effectiveness. I was watching the Japan channel and they had a show about how every year in Japan they reinact famous battles in Japan's history, on the actual battlefield locations. They get dressed up in full samurai armor and then charge each other in sort of a mock battle. To me, koryu is similar to that, except they pay more attention to the details of the moves, and not so much on the battle itself.

 

[puunui]

Go ahead and feel as superior as you wish (since you're trying so hard), it's a mark of the underlying insecurity that will prevent you from ever feeling good about yourself without outside justification.

Not really trying hard, just inviting you over if you ever in the area. Perhaps you frequently travel to Japan for training or tournaments. A lot of people who visit asian countries make a stop here. Breaks up the long flight.

I know several anime geeks that are friends of my eldest son. I would describe their houses pretty much the same way that you described yours.

I think their houses are probably nicer.

None of them practice koryu arts either, so they don't have any greater understanding of them than you seem to.

Thank you. It is true that I am still learning.

No, we meet Mondays 6:30 to 9:30. What makes you think I would I want a bunch of Tae Kwon Do people to stop by and interrupt our class?

Once a week. Gee you must have to cover a lot of ground for your students to advance. We'll try to make it if we can. Thanks for giving us the information on the correct day and times. That helps.

Just so that you're up to date on your information (since you obviously aren't) I was yusho at the last West Coast Batto Do Tai Kai competing in the yondan and up division. Ray Hall was my instructor until he retired from teaching somewhere around 1999 or so. I studied Shin Shin Sekiguchi ryu under Carl McClafferty and Yamada Yoshitaka. I was scheduled to test for my chuden menkyo when knee problems forced me to withdraw from the school (tobiichigai was my downfall). I then began practicing Meishi-ha Mugai ryu under Tony Alvarez and Niina Toyoaki. I am scheduled to test for yondan in that school at this year's gasshuku prior to the West Coast Tai Kai in September.

Congratulations. Sounds like you got promoted to sandan since your bronze medal batto do tournament win. And all of the above sounds quite impressive, I think, but keep in mind that some may consider boasting about those sorts of things may be a mark of the underlying insecurity that will prevent you from ever feeling good about yourself without outside justification.

Now you can update your stalker file so you won't sound quite so foolish. Well, at least not when referring to me.

Don't really have a stalker file, but it was relatively easy to find your webpage, which looks designed to tell the world about who you are and what you are about. I don't really have my own webpage. Not into it. I don't want people to think that me having something like that might be a mark of the underlying insecurity that will prevent you from ever feeling good about yourself without outside justification.("you" used in the general sense, not the specific).

 

[Gemini]

When I was your level, I didn't have any opinions, none that I voiced anyway. I just listened to my teachers and seniors and asked a question once in a while. No one asked for my opinion and I didn't volunteer one.

Peanut gallery here. I've been keeping my mouth shut while watching and "learning". Give me a nudge when we reach the level of "I know you are, but what am I?"

pffft.

 

[Sanke]

I don't know how I or anyone else was supposed to get your point, given your original post. Here it is for comparison to what you write above:

It helps if you actually read the posts in their context. Lets take a look, shall we?

But the arts that do use it post meiji restoration are for the most part self discovery focused arts, as opposed to the above art.

Which you were saying in reference to the naginata school you'd posted above that.
Chris then responded saying that was inaccurate:

Then you have systems pre-Meiji which did deal with personal development. Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu is a system of sword combat which came directly out of bloody experience and is one of the most direct, straight-to-the-point (ha!) kenjutsu systems I've come across... but it is also deeply imbued with the Buddhist Sutras, to the point where it is considered that unless you understand them, you won't (and can't) understand the system. Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu was also deeply concerned with such things. And then there are many that run the gamut from one end of the scale to the other, in both Jutsu and Do disciplines.

And that bring us to the post I originally responded to (which, as it's quoted above, I'll leave you to look up for that one). So now that we're all up to date, lets continue.

But no matter. On to your new points:

Yup, lets get going.

Sure, they had to, to survive. No argument about that. And I have no doubt that is what is going on today. You have to do what you have to do to get people interested.

And here we get to the crux of the matter, which you're just not getting. The arts I am referring to did not add their spiritual development ideas post-meji to continue interest in the system, they were there from the very founding, in a time period where battles were still commonplace. That's why I brought up battles in the first place, because you had implied that these ideas of spiritual development were brought in because there were no wars to be fought, and there had to be something else to keep people interested. And that is, frankly, wrong.

Because in your prior post, you talked about how "the arts Chris was referring to were actually both founded long before the Tokugawa/Edo period, in times where there was an awful lot of 'battlefield action'". I just made a comment that the "battlefield action" that you are talking about happened in the 1600s. So again, really all these koryu are doing essentially is what they were trying to do during the tokugawa era, which is preserve something that may have been used in battle, hundreds of years ago. And like those who are preserving revolutionary war tactics, strategy, and weapons, there has to be a reason for doing that other than battlefield effectiveness. I was watching the Japan channel and they had a show about how every year in Japan they reinact famous battles in Japan's history, on the actual battlefield locations. They get dressed up in full samurai armor and then charge each other in sort of a mock battle. To me, koryu is similar to that, except they pay more attention to the details of the moves, and not so much on the battle itself.

All this section tells me is that you have never practised a koryu art before, and have no understanding of why they were practised the way they are then or why they are today.
And again, the idea that the spiritual side of things is added purely for self-preservation is also completely off.
If you think that they are comparable to recreational society groups, then clearly your research method needs a lot of work, because that's not even close.

 

[puunui]

It helps if you actually read the posts in their context. Lets take a look, shall we?

I tried to follow all of that, but it requires going back and forth between posts, ADHD set in and I got distracted. Let's just assume that you are correct. Easier that way. Not bad for one of Parker Sensei's 7th kyu ninjutsu students. During my distraction, I did do as your Sensei suggested and poked around koryu.com . They have some very interesting, and harsh, opinions on things. Let's see how it fits into the present conversation.

And here we get to the crux of the matter, which you're just not getting. The arts I am referring to did not add their spiritual development ideas post-meji to continue interest in the system, they were there from the very founding, in a time period where battles were still commonplace. That's why I brought up battles in the first place, because you had implied that these ideas of spiritual development were brought in because there were no wars to be fought, and there had to be something else to keep people interested. And that is, frankly, wrong.

I don't know if I said that. This is the quoted part to which you responded:

"I am sure there are, given the fact that there were no battlefield action in Japan for over 350 years during the Tokugawa period. I'm sure that the majority realized at some point that their skills would never be used for the battlefield and instead turned to other philosophical reasons to continue training."

I had to dig around and found this quote: "But the arts that do use it post meiji restoration are for the most part self discovery focused arts, as opposed to the above art." I think I was talking about the Do suffix, but even still, no mention about when they added their "spiritual development" post meiji, which seems to be your main complaint.

All this section tells me is that you have never practised a koryu art before, and have no understanding of why they were practised the way they are then or why they are today.

Either that or you misread what I actually wrote, and came to a conclusion without foundation. But practicing a koryu, that is an interesting concept. I read this from Sensei Diane Skoss. Do you agree with it?

*

Another point that is often forgotten is that the very definition of a classical art is that it is handed down via traditional Japanese methods of transmission. A koryu MUST be transmitted directly from master teacher to student, jikiden. There is no other way. You can't learn it through books; you can't learn it through videotapes. In the modern arts it is sometimes possible (though I'd still argue that it is inadvisable) when no fully qualified teacher is available, for a senior student to take charge of instruction. But this will not work with classical arts. Certainly, there are qualified and authorized instructors of classical schools who are selling books and videos, but no one who uses such books can ever be said to have "entered" or worse, be teaching, that school.


A lot of so-called classical Japanese schools are springing up all over the place these days. Each time an unqualified person claims to teach a Japanese classical tradition it diminishes all authentic traditions. People are, in some cases, forming their impressions of koryu based on what is essentially a lie. It's as if someone passed off a forgery of a great artist as the real thing--it cheats both the artist and the viewer, and it may well harm the forger too. Just as museum curators diligently guard against thieves and the taint of counterfeits, at the same time caring for and preserving the often fragile items in their charge, so too the montei (student/disciple) of a Japanese classical bujutsu must protect and conserve the koryu. Too much information made too readily available makes frauds and misunderstandings easier to perpetrate. Hence, Meik's seemingly obstructive comment, "You want koryu. You come to Japan."


So what is a person who cannot relocate to Japan in order to pursue training in classical Japanese arts to do? One evening after our Wednesday afternoon Toda-ha Buko-ryu naginatajutsu training session, Meik, Liam Keeley, and I talked about the difficulties people face when trying to identify qualified non-Japanese koryu practitioners outside of Japan. We came up with a set of criteria that may be useful. Such a person is probably over thirty years old (getting competent in koryu takes time); they have spent at least five consecutive years in Japan--this is an absolute minimum, ten or fifteen years is better; they are able to function in the Japanese language; they hold a license, presented to them by the headmaster or a master teacher (menkyo kaiden), in one of the classical traditions that are members of either the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, or the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai (admittedly, there are a very small number of schools that for political reasons fall through the cracks here, but essentially a tradition must be documentable in Japan); finally they must be able to describe the history and lineage of the school (this doesn't mean that they can recite these facts off the tops of their heads, but that when queried they can produce and explain the information). A person who fulfills all these requirements can claim to be a qualified practitioner of a koryu. Those who have been awarded teaching licenses are also authorized to teach.


So you do have a choice--come to Japan, or find one of the dozen or so truly qualified instructors teaching outside of Japan and begin training. While a trip to Japan may not be absolutely essential to train in the koryu (and I do believe it is a must for those who would teach), it is vital to learn from someone who has truly "done time in Japan."

*

My question is, are you learning from someone who is: a person is probably over thirty years old (getting competent in koryu takes time); they have spent at least five consecutive years in Japan--this is an absolute minimum, ten or fifteen years is better; they are able to function in the Japanese language; they hold a license, presented to them by the headmaster or a master teacher (menkyo kaiden), in one of the classical traditions that are members of either the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, or the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai (admittedly, there are a very small number of schools that for political reasons fall through the cracks here, but essentially a tradition must be documentable in Japan); finally they must be able to describe the history and lineage of the school (this doesn't mean that they can recite these facts off the tops of their heads, but that when queried they can produce and explain the information). A person who fulfills all these requirements can claim to be a qualified practitioner of a koryu. Those who have been awarded teaching licenses are also authorized to teach.

*

And again, the idea that the spiritual side of things is added purely for self-preservation is also completely off. If you think that they are comparable to recreational society groups, then clearly your research method needs a lot of work, because that's not even close.

Here is more from Diane Sensei:

First of all, in the modern world, the koryu are cultural artifacts, perhaps no longer useful for their original purposes, but worth preserving as part of the heritage of Japan. We do not train in these arts in order to be able to use these techniques on the battlefield, but to further our self-development and to keep four- or six-hundred-year-old traditions alive. In order to do this we must always keep our training grounded in an enormously complex cultural and historical context--one that simply does not exist outside of Japan. While it may be possible for good aikido to flourish under the guidance of someone who has not had extensive experience in Japan, this is not the case for the koryu.

*

But more to the point of the discussion: "Modern arts developed primarily for spiritual and social self-improvement; the classical arts were for fighting. "Do" is spiritual; "jutsu" is technical. The bujutsu were the arts practiced by a specific class for use on the battlefields of Japan, the budo have been opened up to folk of all classes and nationalities. These distinctions seem pretty clear-cut, but, in general, contrast the characteristics of bujutsu of the past with the goals of budo in the present. This seems to cause confusion."

But even if they cause confusion, they are not "the same" as so many here have attempted to point out.