What sword discipline/kata is this?

[72ronin]

Greetings,

OK, im certainly not looking to promote/criticise this demo, personaly i have no background with sword training so i have no real grasp as to its quality etc,
However, constructive comments to that nature are welcome as to the quality of the demo in relation to his handling/grip/movements etc

The question i would like to ask is, What discipline/kata is he doing?.
I suspect ofcourse it is Iaido or a similar sword discipline, but any demonstration i have seen in respect to laido seemed to concentrate mainly on drawing and a strike or two then returning the sword etc
I guess im just trying to place A/ what discipline he is performing ie; Iaido? etc and B/ what set/form or kata is he performing?

cheers

 

[Chris Parker]

Honestly, the fellow "demonstrating" here has no idea of quality, either, frankly.

Uh, it's nothing to do with Japanese Sword Arts other than someone thinking that just because they've reached a certain level in one art that they can automatically do any other art they watch once....

It is no discipline, it is no art, and it is no kata.

If it helps, though, he's not alone....

WARNING: If you are having a drink, or eating a meal, finish what you have before you click on this. Seriously.

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[72ronin]

Thankyou Chris.
! The vid you posted... his head bobbed around a bit!.. And the footwork!
Thanks for the warning lol, Coffee and keyboards dont mix LOL.

Its a shame - the vid i posted.. Why the hell do they not seek appropriate training if they are to take on swords into the syllabus?
Seriously, how hard can it be, if one was the head of an Org. and decided to bring swords into the curriculum, to study an appropriate amount of sword discipline first so as to give the students a legitimate base of core skills?

Damn that ticks me off, its just unprofessional.
Sure, this guy could just be demo-ing something freestyle or whatever, but why, why go freestyle in such a thing? thats just bizzare!

A friend of mine, his son joined this particular karate group recently in the Adelaide area. He tells me he came home from his first class saying "I got to use a sword" !!
I asked my mate if it was a sharp sword he used, he said yes - GASP Have they not considered using Bokken LOL

...very dissapointing, i suspected as much.
cheers mate

 

[Chris Parker]

Within sword circles, if it's heard that a Karate instructor has taught someone sword then it's often seen as worse than if they'd never picked one up before! I honestly don't know why some people want to be seen as being skilled in things they've (obviously!) never been taught before.... but for future reference, any time you see that "figure 8" thing happen, the person doing it has no idea of swordsmanship whatsoever.

With regard to the year 7 lad (that's about 11 or 12 years old, to translate for our cross-Atlantic friends....), I'd be willing to bet that it was an Iaito (unsharpened aluminium blade). If the instructor had a live blade, he'd typically be too worried about the risk of cutting his own fingers off, and would never give it to a kid as their first experience. And if he did, let the child's parents know that they should pull him out of there immediately!

Recently I did my first live-cutting session (only took me 17-odd years, ha!), and the type of safety surrounding it was similar to when I used to visit a pistol range. Best case scenario, the instructor wasn't understood, and the youngster thinks any metal blade is sharp (not uncommon), worse the instructor has no idea what he is doing, and worst case of all, he's criminally negligent and asking for insurance issues for years to come!

 

[72ronin]

The figure 8 stuff.. Yep, that is exactly what first had me thinking it was made up crap.
Its a shame.. there is just no need for flair in such a mature endeavor.
Again, im very dissapointed this group could not approach this particular weapon in a more professional manner.

Yeah, the lad may have put some spin on the sword being sharp, but i was still a little shocked that he was allowed to handle anything but a wooden training version.

Congrats on your first live cut Chris, and thankyou for the info.
cheers

 

[Sukerkin]

Reaction to first video: Oh my giddy aunt!

Reaction to second video: Ah, Dances with Swords! Honestly, if that chap was supposed to hold grade in another art, surely he's learned to move keeping his CoG down rather than bouncing about like he's doing the Highland Fling!?

Chris has pretty much covered it I reckon .

 

[72ronin]

Highland fling! May Wallace himself bust through your frontdoor on horseback as we speak and restore the honour of... nevermind LOL

Yes, some people simply have no shame to flail swords around in such a manner.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, there were quite a few giveaways well before the figure 8... but it is a sure-tell that someone is just making stuff up with no basis if you had any doubt!

Honestly, I'd find it more shocking that there was anything to do with swords whatsoever on his first day of Karate training, it has no place in any Karate system I've ever seen. My old Karate instructor had a few Shinai around, but not as training weapons. They were used as training aids, such as targets, or things to evade, as well as, uh, let's say, disciplinary measures? No, that sounds bad.... it was more waving them around threateningly than anything else. He was under no illusions that he had anything to offer in the way of sword training.

Thanks for the congrats on the cutting, it was an absolute blast! Started off with half mats, then went on to full mats, and in the end were just trying to one-up each other (the other guys there were all Iaido people, I was the only one who wasn't), with things like unsupported targets, unwrapped targets.... can't wait for the next one! Of course, I haven't seen the video or photos from that session yet, it could still turn out to be rather embarrassing after all!

 

[72ronin]

Thats what got my attention aswell, just the fact he was allowed to handle a sword at all.
Im sure they train with bokken though, i think they have a requirement to perform a sword kata at their shodan grading, with a real blade!
Apparently the lad was lucky enough to catch a night where the Instructor had brought all his weapons along for display or something and was allowed to handle what i believe to be a live blade, supervised, i hope i havent made it sound like he did any techs or anything lol. My mistake there if i did.

haha, im sure your photo's and such will be rewarding in there content Chris, sounds like a great time you had too.
Are the mats you speak of, are they rolled held verticaly on a post? They are supposed to represent the density of a mans backbone arent they?
It must bring a deeper appreciation or confidence even perhaps to your study, and ofcourse re-enforce the respect you have for the sword.

cheers

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, it'd be interesting to know where the swordwork they do comes from... I've seen too many Karate instructors that just put together what they think swordsmanship is, and tend to get it very, very wrong. See above for some examples....

Yeah, I'm sure I'll get a fair bit out of them... even if it's just "oh, my lord, how am I standing there?", ha! The mats are tatami (straw mats that form the basic floor covering in Japanese houses... houses there are still measured in numbers of mats for each room) that are soaked to increase their density, which is said to get them to resemble human flesh and muscle tone. You can also add green bamboo in the centre, which is supposed to resemble the resistance of bone, so depending on the number of mats will represent the part of the body (half a mat = an arm, for instance).

We started with half mats because, as the instructor said, most people always try to "overmuscle" their first cut, thinking they need more strength than they actually do. Really, the sword goes through a target like that incredibly easily, so the fact that you manage to cut through without getting stuck isn't really an achievement. Cutting is more about working on precision, angle of the cut etc, and that was the way I approached it.

In terms of what I got out of it, I was intellectually aware of the ease with which the blade cuts, but "feeling" it for myself was fantastic. And really, it was just so much fun!

 

[72ronin]

OK, In all fairness to the Instructor/club, ive reread my posts here and i should make this clear as i may have given the wrong impression and for that i appologise.
Although the lad proclaimed to have handled a real sword in class to his parent,
What he did was, while being supervised, be allowed to unsheath an apparent live blade and hold it independantly, perhaps wave it around a little, then the person supervising him took it and replaced it to the display, that was there for that night only.
In all fairness to the Instructor, im sure he thinks he gave the lad a real thrill etc and that it was perfectly under controll and safe etc

Just had to make that clear, again, i appologise for any misleading statements, As I was simply stating what the parent relayed to me.

 

[72ronin]

Hmm, it'd be interesting to know where the swordwork they do comes from.

Yeah, i dont know as yet, I may look into it. Nothing about it on their website.
Apparently they are introduced to a wooden sword at blue belt or maybe 6th kyu level and are required to perform a sword kata with katana at their shodan grading.

 

[MA-Caver]

Thank you all for comments concerning the videos. Twirling figure 8's certainly a dead give-away that they've watched too many episodes of Highlander and Blade.
I think one should be hiding a baton twirling trophy in their stuff next time they go to a tourney/demo and if someone pulls crap like that, walk up to them and give them the trophy, bow and walk away snickering.

Damn shame indeed. Gives those who have trained for YEARS in sword arts a bad name.

 

[Ken Morgan]

What to say that hasn’t already been said well? Not a great deal.

I have essentially little to no impression as to what each of the individuals practicing where doing. Mark & Chris said it already, sword dancing and those that practice other arts assuming that they by default understand sword.

In various places I understand what the first gentleman was trying to accomplish, but in any of his blocks, or cuts, his body position was seriously incorrect. Grip, hips, and a variety of other thing were incorrect to the point of an opponent would have driven straight through them and basically killed him very quickly.

I was at a MA demonstration some years ago and we were watching all these groups demonstrate similar type kata with sword. Then we went up and did some MJER kata, almost everyone there had no clue as to what was we just did. A couple of people asked afterwards if it was iaido and commented that the kata weren’t very long. We simply commented that we killed them on the first or second cut and the kata was over. They smiled, nodded and left.

Ever try to explain string theory to a nine year old? Like that.

 

[ludde]

First vid.
Ha ha, his hasuji is priceless.

Secon vid.
WTF...

And Chris, thanks for the warning, seriously.