Tradition or Change: White or Colored Uniform

[glad2bhere]

Michigan TKD:

My guess is (and this is JUST a guess) is that what you are seeing is fallout from a couple of things. One of them is abuse of the "senior"/"junior" relationships regarding deference and responsibility. My experience is that though this relationship is invoked a lot in the KMA that it is, too often, one way. By this I mean that the senior wants respect and deference from his juniors but does not meet his responsibilities for taking care of the juniors. The result is that the juniors don't feel bound by the wishes of the seniors as they might be.

Another contributing factor mighht be the role of commerce. My sense is that in order to retain sufficient enrollment the seniors must play-up to the juniors by indulging their various needs for individuality, novelty and drama. I think in the long run it undercuts the stability of the art, but the immediate reward is that it keeps students around to pay the bills.

The only other thing I can think of is that there are a lot of folks trying to run schools who never developed the investment (IE. emotional engagement) with their art. Such an investment only comes with time and seasoning. For me thats what a BB says: "this is my art--- the one I am dedicated to." Without that investment even an instructor can be like a wind-sock at the airport and re-orientate every time some new fad comes down the pike.

As far as Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido, the gueppies wear white and the BB wear black-- just that simple. Knee patches and 12oz material is recommended. Now for the World Hapkido Federation, GM Myung has special uniforms that suggest the Korean han-bok. Not my particular cup of tea, but there are folks who eat it up. I pretty much let students wear anything they want as long as it is clean, in good repair and appropriate for what we are there for. (Had one young miss who was prone to wearing short-shorts and tended to reveal a bit too much personal information during warm-ups. The same goes for those who are well-endowed and have yet to discover athletic support, if you know what I mean.) No day-glo colors, provocative patches, or clever quips. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

Very true.

I have noticed that it is very common for Instructors to allow students to wear the non-traditional uniforms to keep their interest peaked. Which begs the question: If a student has to wear a red/blue/black uniform to keep interested in Tae Kwon Do, what happens when THAT loses his interest? What happens when the novelty wears off? If a student has interest problems, uniform color won't change that. It is more of a program or Instructor problem.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Very true.

I have noticed that it is very common for Instructors to allow students to wear the non-traditional uniforms to keep their interest peaked. Which begs the question: If a student has to wear a red/blue/black uniform to keep interested in Tae Kwon Do, what happens when THAT loses his interest? What happens when the novelty wears off? If a student has interest problems, uniform color won't change that. It is more of a program or Instructor problem.

Sir,
The fact that TKD is cool is its top selling point. Why in Gods name are you trying to supress it? Americans are not exactly lining up around the block to become second rate koreans. Just because an instructor recognizes this does not make him a bad instructor, it make him a business man. :asian:
Sean

 

[TigerWoman]

Very true.

I have noticed that it is very common for Instructors to allow students to wear the non-traditional uniforms to keep their interest peaked. Which begs the question: If a student has to wear a red/blue/black uniform to keep interested in Tae Kwon Do, what happens when THAT loses his interest? What happens when the novelty wears off? If a student has interest problems, uniform color won't change that. It is more of a program or Instructor problem.

Its NOTHING about having "interest peaked", or commercial gain. Its ONLY a different color uniform. It is FUN for a family to wear the same color but we wouldn't cry about it if they were forbidden. And color is good for the laundry situation and can be an symbol of hard work achieved to get to the blue rank or the red rank TOGETHER AS A FAMILY - not a bad thing in this day and age of drugs, school dropouts, and alcohol. By the way, just because white was the color of choice by the Koreans long ago, it doesn't make it a reason for NOW. I wonder if they would have chosen colored if they had a choice instead of white undergarments. None of my moral, ethical and personal standards are sacrificed because I wear a colored uniform. In fact, I have a red one on right now, left over from my family experience. We were a really colorful class today, in fact, and it did not deter one iota from the decorum or educational values present. TW

 

[MichiganTKD]

You still haven't given me solid reasons beyond the superficial why colored uniforms are desirable. I would think that an entire family practicing together would be unity and togetherness in itself.
As far as cool, the fact that you're able to do things very few people can I would think would be cool in itself. Think of it like this: If you have lousy technique and bad manners, a fancy uniform won't help. If you have great technique and very good manners, why do you need a fancy uniform?
No, wearing a red uniform doesn't change you. It doesn't make you a better or worse Tae Kwon Do student. Which begs the question? Why wear it then? If it doesn't make you good or bad, what purpose does it serve? I suspect the answer is because deep down those who wear it want to feel cool wearing one, much like the guy who buys a Porsche to feel good about himself.
It goes back to what I was talking about before about humility and lack of ego. If you are truly humble, which is something we strive for, what purpose does the fancy uniform serve?

 

[Touch Of Death]

You still haven't given me solid reasons beyond the superficial why colored uniforms are desirable. I would think that an entire family practicing together would be unity and togetherness in itself.
As far as cool, the fact that you're able to do things very few people can I would think would be cool in itself. Think of it like this: If you have lousy technique and bad manners, a fancy uniform won't help. If you have great technique and very good manners, why do you need a fancy uniform?
No, wearing a red uniform doesn't change you. It doesn't make you a better or worse Tae Kwon Do student. Which begs the question? Why wear it then? If it doesn't make you good or bad, what purpose does it serve? I suspect the answer is because deep down those who wear it want to feel cool wearing one, much like the guy who buys a Porsche to feel good about himself.
It goes back to what I was talking about before about humility and lack of ego. If you are truly humble, which is something we strive for, what purpose does the fancy uniform serve?

Nobody joins for lessons in humility.
Sean

 

[TigerWoman]

This whole subject is "superficial". A uniform is a piece of clothing to exercise in. It really doesn't matter about the color. Most adults don't believe that clothing makes you cool. I think that is a teen thing. Oh maybe it does, you're right, because you sweat and it cools you off. Actually I'm not as cool as you would think when I am in red, because I always seem to put the pants on wrong. And I laugh at myself again with everybody else and go on with the workout. Who cares.

So, some people/students of TKD wear uniforms that are colored (one color is not "fancy") but different than yours. I already stated my reasons. And we are not alone in this. I have seen alot of colored uniforms around at tourneys. In fact I have worn all colors and it does not affect the judges one whit. Smart judges. White does not show that you have great technique anymore than red, or blue. Do you wear the same white shirt and jeans everyday? I will say I'm sorry that I got into this discussion about it. I'm not preventing you from wearing those white uniforms. I wear white too on occasion. But you can't prevent the tides of change either. :asian: TW

 

[glad2bhere]

I agree that the subject itself is pretty superficial. The only reason I can see for pursuing this is that maybe such things as needing to wear a flamboyant uniform might be some sort of indicator of what may be going on between a persons ears regarding their character development. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

This whole subject is "superficial". A uniform is a piece of clothing to exercise in. It really doesn't matter about the color. Most adults don't believe that clothing makes you cool. I think that is a teen thing. Oh maybe it does, you're right, because you sweat and it cools you off. Actually I'm not as cool as you would think when I am in red, because I always seem to put the pants on wrong. And I laugh at myself again with everybody else and go on with the workout. Who cares.

So, some people/students of TKD wear uniforms that are colored (one color is not "fancy") but different than yours. I already stated my reasons. And we are not alone in this. I have seen alot of colored uniforms around at tourneys. In fact I have worn all colors and it does not affect the judges one whit. Smart judges. White does not show that you have great technique anymore than red, or blue. Do you wear the same white shirt and jeans everyday? I will say I'm sorry that I got into this discussion about it. I'm not preventing you from wearing those white uniforms. I wear white too on occasion. But you can't prevent the tides of change either. :asian: TW

Not quite true.
If you attend an open tournament, then uniform color probably wouldn't matter. However, if you attend a strictly USTU or WTF authorized tournament, they tend to have strict rules layed out regarding proper dress. Anything other than the traditional or white/black V-neck would not be accepted. I've read of at least one case where students not wearing accepted uniforms were not allowed to compete. Some had come great distances. Obviously their Instructor hadn't done a very good job of checking the rules!
The organization tournament we hold every year also includes rules regarding proper dress for competitors. Only uniforms authorized by the WTF are accepted-white traditional or V-neck.
I wouldn't include colored uniforms in the tides of change either. People have been wearing them for a number of years, but there are still many Instructors, myself included obviously, who do not authorize them.

 

[Faye]

What I have noticed is this: schools that have stronger ties to Korea and the WTF, I think, tend to walk a straighter line regarding white vs. colored uniforms. Schools that have looser affiliation to either WTF or ITF and little to no ties to Korea tend to be more liberal in their choice of uniforms.........
However, if you are TOO entrenched in tradition it is hard to grow and evolve. Otherwise we'd still be doing the Shotokan forms. We'd still be doing Tae Kyon for that matter.

I think I believe my school is very traditional, as mentioned before, all white uniforms, etc. And the forms that we practice, the pyangs... are very very similiar to the shotakan forms.

 

[TigerWoman]

I agree that the subject itself is pretty superficial. The only reason I can see for pursuing this is that maybe such things as needing to wear a flamboyant uniform might be some sort of indicator of what may be going on between a persons ears regarding their character development. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Dear Bruce,
You really think that because our master lets us wear a different colored uniform that by the way, is hardly flamboyant and is a bit extreme description for a uniform that is only different in color, one color for selected higher ranks. We do not wear power rangers, striped, pieced uniforms. You judge someone because they put on a different color uniform that is permitted by their instructor?
TW

 

[TigerWoman]

Not quite true.
If you attend an open tournament, then uniform color probably wouldn't matter. However, if you attend a strictly USTU or WTF authorized tournament...

You are right about that. Colored uniforms are still not allowed at USTU tournaments. We only have one, the state competition every year anyway.
And that is just to qualify for Nationals.

But we can still wear them to exercise in!!! TW

 

[Marginal]

Dear Bruce,
You really think that because our master lets us wear a different colored uniform that by the way, is hardly flamboyant and is a bit extreme description for a uniform that is only different in color, one color for selected higher ranks. We do not wear power rangers, striped, pieced uniforms. You judge someone because they put on a different color uniform that is permitted by their instructor?
TW

If they're unconcerned with tradition in one area, what's to stop other traditional values from sliding? Like etiquette for example...

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

Whoa---- if somebody wants to perform judgements, thats on them. All I suggested was that it MIGHT be an indicator. I have no Magic Window to peek into another persons' heart. All I have to go on is what I see for myself.
In my own personal experience I see folks making a lot more out of what they wear than what they live. I see a lot more people mixing and matching material rather than dedicating themselves to a single path. The single most consistent theme I have seen for myself in the KMA is "how can I garner the greatest level of regard from people in my environment" rather than "how can I be of greatest service to the folks around me." Now I enjoy a clever discussion as much as the next person so we can talk about the color of uniforms and the use of Okinawan weapons in Korean schools as long as anyone cares to. My challenge to the typical practitioner, however, is would you still train in KMA if you were the only person on Earth and had NOONE to garner recognition or adulation from? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

Bruce,

Yep, I still would. I practice Tae Kwon Do for personal fulfillment. And the last Tae Kwon Do practitioner on Earth would still be wearing a white uniform. One of the tests of a person's character is what he/she would do if noone else were around. If I were the last person on Earth, I'd still be practicing in a white uniform.
And Marginal is absolutely correct: if you let a tradition like uniform color slide, what's to stop other aspects of etiquette from sliding as well?
I think if you feel uniform color is unimportant, then everything else can be unimportant as well.

 

[terryl965]

I agree if I was the last person around I would still train, The only difference I would wear nothing, nobody's around so I would train in the uniform GOD gave me bare naked. GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[MichiganTKD]

LOL!

Why not? It's how the ancient Greeks trained.

 

[glad2bhere]

".....And Marginal is absolutely correct: if you let a tradition like uniform color slide, what's to stop other aspects of etiquette from sliding as well?
I think if you feel uniform color is unimportant, then everything else can be unimportant as well....."

This may be an odd sort of response but I write this in support of the comment from MichiganTKD.

When such things as survival techniques come up for discussion, people who speak from experience always recount how small things helped them keep perspective and spirit up. I know it sounds silly, but when faced with strong feelings of abandonment, isolation, deprivation and such, little things such as daily practices (IE. shaving, daily meditation or prayer, washing clothes) help a person to remember that they are human, worthy of respect and empowered.

In like manner, then, following the Warriors Path is fraught with trials and tribulations. In Western culture there are a lot of misconceptions about this sort of lifestyle and value system so one gets to feeling pretty isolated and abandoned sometimes. To my way of thinking, if wearing, washing and caring after a traditional uniform is anything like knights of old caring after their armour, seems that this would be a very affirming behavior pattern for a MA to follow. It reminds a person that even if they are in circumstances where they must train by themselves, they are still part of a larger community whose roots go back quite a ways. For me, even when I train at home, I will still usually wear my do-bok pants just for this reason--- to remind myself that I am not just "working-out" in the physical sense, but I am also affirming my relationship with folks and traditions and values that have gone before. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Hollywood1340]

If they're unconcerned with tradition in one area, what's to stop other traditional values from sliding? Like etiquette for example...

We studied this in highschool, I think it was called "The Domino Effect". It's all related, you can't have ONE without THE OTHER.

 

[Marginal]

Domino effect? Better than a slippery slope I suppose.

If you think about it, there's no particular reason to do the bulk of he traditionalist things. You could just have the people come in, rotate through various training stations (one bagwork, the next sparring, the next conditioning, back to bagwork, then forms, then padwork etc) and send 'em home without one bow, asking them to wear speficic training uniforms etc. You'd transmit the skill sets just the same. Perhaps better than in a traditional format class if you set it up in a solid interval workout format, had time dedicated to weight lifting etc.

Since the traditional format only really came into existence in the 1940's or so, you can't even really call it a longstanding tradition if you can call it one at all, so why done one aspect, but not the other?

The ultimate answer to that's up to the individual, but obviously the traditional method appeals to a great many, and by following with tradition, they validate the fact that it is a tradition and so fourth.