Seabrook
Black Belt
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Exactly my point Michael....well put!Michael Billings said:
Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
Tracy Kenpo Better Then EPAKK!
- Thread starter Atlanta-Kenpo
- Start date
Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
Blindside said:
Although it should be noted that Will Tracy also ran and hosted the official Tracy website. When Al Tracy began doing the website himself, the articles immediately disappeared.
They were taken off in February of 1999.
but then last year were reposted on Ted Sumners site (Mr. Sumner is a high rank, I want to say 9th in Tracys Kenpo). I would note that Mr. Sumner has obliquely stated that he does not necessarily agree with those articles. If you really want to get your mad-on, go to his site and read some of the other articles in that series.
Lamont
Dr. Sumner is an 8th. You are correct, he does not necessarily agree with or endorse the articles, but hopes that they will provide stimulating conversation/discussion/debate. It seems that everyone is willing to state that the articles are "Crap" and then slam Al Tracy for them (even though he did not write them) but as of yet no one has stepped forward with any substantive claim of specific inaccuracies within the articles.
Again, Will Tracy is not a part of the Tracy Organization, nor does he support Al Tracy, according to his own words. To condemn Al Tracy for Will's words is ridiculous.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
Atlanta-Kenpo said:
Where on the Tracy Web Site?
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
Seabrook said:
Probably the same reason EPAK guys keep coming to me to learn kenpo.
Seabrook
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Okay, okay, okay Dave. I don't know you personally but know about your background and I respect that.KenpoDave said:
I am not trying to get into a shoving match here. But if someone posts an article that is full of crap, and that purposefully shoots down EPAK, I am going to speak up.
Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
Perfect example of the art depending upon the quality of the teacher. (I can say this because you are both in different countriesSeabrook said:
) I'd probably be at a different school if Doc wasn't around the corner. You take the instructor that is the best, not necessarily the art. (Depending on options) Good Hapkido better than bad Kenpo (EPAK or Otherwise)
Bode said:Perfect example of the art depending upon the quality of the teacher. (I can say this because you are both in different countries
Good Hapkido better than bad Kenpo (EPAK or Otherwise)
Good point! And that is ultimately what really matters....what suits the person the best! Its all part of the Kenpo tree, just a different branch.
Mike
kenpo_cory
Purple Belt
KenpoDave said:
I wasnt there so I wouldnt know, but there are a couple of people on this board that were very close personal students of Mr. Parker that have said there are inaccuracies within one of those articles. Particularly the claims that Mr. Parker was a racist and had hidden "religious" agendas in his kenpo practices. No disrespect intended, but I think it's ridiculous to post something like that under the "hopes" that it will provide stimulating conversation/discussion/debate. It creates animosity is what it does. Me personally, Ive met and practiced with people that started in Tracy's and they were darn good kenpoists. I guess I just dont understand. :idunno:
evenflow1121
2nd Black Belt
Prove what, its all based on the writer's personal account, there are no facts to prove. To be quite honest its pretty much one giant opinion, written by whomever, after Mr Parker passed away.
You are absolutely right however, if Al Tracy didnt write it, he should not be condemned for it, that said, Tracy system produced both Bart Vale and Tom Dunne two guys I had the pleasure of meeting and watching in action, one of them passed away in '95 Mr. Dunne, the other is still around hopefully for many more years. I practice EPAK, I always have, however recently, where I live there are no EPAK schools that I know of, anymore, atleast not one that I can trace a true lineage back to an original EPAK instructor, once again that I know of, so I've been thinking about starting to train under some other system or something else, looking into bjj and JKD actually; however and recently, when people come to me and ask me about kenpo and who should they train with in the South Florida Area, I usually refer them to Bart Vale, because I know he is legitimate, (world champion shoot fighter, is on the Tracy Family Tree, 8th degree bb). From personal experience from people I have come into contact with that have studied both systems yes, they have preferred EPAK over the Tracy system, but neither system really is any better than the other, its the instructor that makes the all the difference in the world.
You are absolutely right however, if Al Tracy didnt write it, he should not be condemned for it, that said, Tracy system produced both Bart Vale and Tom Dunne two guys I had the pleasure of meeting and watching in action, one of them passed away in '95 Mr. Dunne, the other is still around hopefully for many more years. I practice EPAK, I always have, however recently, where I live there are no EPAK schools that I know of, anymore, atleast not one that I can trace a true lineage back to an original EPAK instructor, once again that I know of, so I've been thinking about starting to train under some other system or something else, looking into bjj and JKD actually; however and recently, when people come to me and ask me about kenpo and who should they train with in the South Florida Area, I usually refer them to Bart Vale, because I know he is legitimate, (world champion shoot fighter, is on the Tracy Family Tree, 8th degree bb). From personal experience from people I have come into contact with that have studied both systems yes, they have preferred EPAK over the Tracy system, but neither system really is any better than the other, its the instructor that makes the all the difference in the world.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
Seabrook said:
I expect you to, Jamie. But, speak up about the ARTICLES, or the man who wrote the articles. Look at the name of this thread, then read the articles and tell me where in any of them it says "Tracy's is better than EPAKK." Will Tracy considered Ed Parker to be a good man, and to be his friend, and his articles seem derogatory only if you consider Ed Parker to be more than what he was, a man.
Go to the Tracy's website and find where Al Tracy is critical of Ed Parker. Go to an Al Tracy seminar and try to catch him being critical of Ed Parker. I don't think you can.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
The Kai said:
Yawn. Let's try this again. The man who wrote the articles in question is not a part of the Tracy organization, nor does he support the organization. Google "Ed Parker's First Black Belt" and you can read it in his own words.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
kenpo_cory said:
Okay. Are they mormons? Will stated that as a mormon, he recognized the symbolism, such as men tying the belt on the left and women on the right. Veiled symbolism of this sort would fly well under the radar of a non-mormon.
Perhaps it does. It doesn't have to. Reasonable people can read the articles, form an opinion and go from there. It interests me that so many are so concerned about Will Tracy's degrading of Ed Parker that they have to hurl insults at the entire Tracy System and Al Tracy. This is what I don't understand.
What if everything Will Tracy writes is in fact true? Does that mean Circling Destruction doesn't work?
Hmmm, maybe it does. Question, if a kenpo instructor is less than perfect, then, does his kenpo have no value?
Dr. Kenpo
Blue Belt
Let me add that when the site first went up, it was owned, controlled by Will Tracy. When Master Al took over, it was not there anymore. He didn't want it on his site.Blindside said:This series of articles was written by Will Tracy (there are three Tracy brothers; Jim, Al, Will), my understanding is that Will is not associated with the Tracy Kenpo organization any longer. However, since these articles were on the official Tracy webpage for a number of years, any reasonable person would hold the Tracy organization at least partially responsible.
The pages were eventually taken off the webpage (probably 3/4 years go), but then last year were reposted on Ted Sumners site (Mr. Sumner is a high rank, I want to say 9th in Tracys Kenpo). I would note that Mr. Sumner has obliquely stated that he does not necessarily agree with those articles. If you really want to get your mad-on, go to his site and read some of the other articles in that series.
Lamont
TheEdge883
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KenpoDave said:
I'm a mormon and I don't recognize the symbolism.
Also, wasn't Will the head of a church of sex? I don't know, internet rumors :idunno:
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
TheEdge883 said:
Alright! A comment about the content of the articles! Are you an elder? I have a neighbor who is, and I ran this by him several years ago, and he recognized it. However, the two "evangelists" that came by the house about a month ago trying to recruit us to the mormon church did not. Perhaps it is no longer used, or only used within elder's meetings?
Sigh...
I'm a life long Mormon also and have been going to the LDS Temples a long time (nearly 20 years). No, none of these in Kenpo have any bearing or relationship with what goes on in the church or in the Temple. There are no male/female with switching knotted belt sides, etc. within the LDS church/temple. It is stretching it to try to seek for any similarities.
Sorry to disappoint you, but the stuff in the article is just that, myth, written by a person who does not understand the traditions/activities of those who practice this religion.
Besides, this is off topic. What does religion have to do with the difference between the styles of Tracy's and EPAK?
- Ceicei
I'm a life long Mormon also and have been going to the LDS Temples a long time (nearly 20 years). No, none of these in Kenpo have any bearing or relationship with what goes on in the church or in the Temple. There are no male/female with switching knotted belt sides, etc. within the LDS church/temple. It is stretching it to try to seek for any similarities.
Sorry to disappoint you, but the stuff in the article is just that, myth, written by a person who does not understand the traditions/activities of those who practice this religion.
Besides, this is off topic. What does religion have to do with the difference between the styles of Tracy's and EPAK?
- Ceicei
TheEdge883
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KenpoDave said:
Honestly, what does it matter? Wil Tracy is as crazy as a coot and what he says is about EPAK or Ed Parker himself for that matter doesn't make a lick of difference for me or my training.
Ray
Master Black Belt
I can assure you [as I have on another thread] that what I have learned in Kenpo over the last 20 years doesn't share symbololgy from LDS temple ceremonies. I am LDS.KenpoDave said:
I have seen a similarity about church mis-information in other conversations. This week, for example, a co-worker was telling me all about the my church -- you see he "learned" all about it from his Lutheran minister. Now, me, for example, I'm not going to a Mosque to learn about Judiasm...no sir, I'd go to a synagoge and listen from someone who might know what they're talking about. So, feel free to invite those two "evangelists" into your house if you really want to learn more. Yes, you can find material that is critical of the church, but get the inside scoop too so you can make an informed decision.
If the Tracy's were once Mormon and are not now, they may (or may not) have other issues that cause them to talk about the church. Co-incidentally, if they left Parker and talk bad about him, do we see a pattern?
L
lonekimono10
Guest
WELL, WELL, i see that the Tracy Battle go's on, and if any one knows anything about this man i do, hey guys we all know what he is about, and i don't care about who trains with him or not,Mr Seabrook said it best but i'll use my words "you got something to say about Mr Parker then step up"
you know Tracy has this magic wand of his that he likes to wave around,
hey you know if you check out some of his stuff you will fine that he likes to talk about Dead people, Al Tracy, Pat Tracy you can't talk to them (i tried)
in fact it's like talking to a robot, what a friend.
he will be like shane ridding of into the sunset
you know Tracy has this magic wand of his that he likes to wave around,
hey you know if you check out some of his stuff you will fine that he likes to talk about Dead people, Al Tracy, Pat Tracy you can't talk to them (i tried)
in fact it's like talking to a robot, what a friend.
he will be like shane ridding of into the sunset
