Tracy Kenpo Better Then EPAKK!

[Akashiro Tamaya]

In his Dojo I wear a 1st Black belt and solid Gi.

The Gi must be pain to wear, could you not wear regular cotton dogi Bruce ?

 

[Simon Curran]

The Gi must be pain to wear, could you not wear regular cotton dogi Bruce ?

I'm personally glad somebody finally entered a little homour into these exchanges...

 

[MJS]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation on topic..

-MJS
-MT Moderator-

 

[KenpoDave]

No Tracy's Kenpo without Parker is an admitted fact. Mitose & EPAK is highly debated and not proven {at least to my satisfaction}.

So, you don't believe that Mitose taught kenpo to Chow, and that Chow taught Parker?

 

[Ray]

So, you don't believe that Mitose taught kenpo to Chow, and that Chow taught Parker?

You know what? When I first became interested in the history of Kenpo and read that Mitose taught Chow, I believed it. Later when I read other opinions, I was undecided.

This debate has given me a new perspective on the subject of history and historians.

Best of all, I wasn't there - so what do you care what I believe?

 

[KenpoDave]

You know what? When I first became interested in the history of Kenpo and read that Mitose taught Chow, I believed it. Later when I read other opinions, I was undecided.

This debate has given me a new perspective on the subject of history and historians.

Best of all, I wasn't there - so what do you care what I believe?

Because whether Mitose taught Chow is/was never debated. Your take on this historical fact would either lend credibility to or take away from your take on other history and traditions.

 

[KenpoDave]

This debate has given me a new perspective on the subject of history and historians.

Me too. I have, by the way, done a little web research on Mormon temple rituals. Most of the sites that I have run across that go into any real explanation appear to be written by former Mormons with a grudge, or "anti-Mormons." The LDS sites don't have much information other than superficially.

I have, however, found no rituals that I recognize from kenpo, including the ritual of having single women wear their sash tied to one side while men and married women wear theirs on the opposite. (Although I must admit that the kenpo flame bears a sort of resemblance to the compass and the square that LDS members have stitched into their sacred garments. I tend to see a compass and square everywhere these days, though.) I have found some wierd stuff, but like I said, from mostly anti-Mormon sites, so I tend to assume them to be less than credible overall.

 

[Ray]

Because whether Mitose taught Chow is/was never debated. Your take on this historical fact would either lend credibility to or take away from your take on other history and traditions.

Apparently Chow debated that fact, as in the interview with Perkins in jul 05 Black Belt magazine. And I'm pretty sure that I've seen it elsewhere.

Add to that the report in Parker's book 1 of infinite insights that what Mitose showed him in So Cal was pretty piss poor. Contrast that with the glowing accounts that parker gave of Chow. Mitose came down with "kenpo alzhiemers" or Chow learned to kick butt from someone who wasn't name Mitose.

If Chow had earned a 5th Dan in Judo before meeting up with Mitose {something I only recently discovered}; and if Chow had pretty much "run the streets" after his mother died, who's to know who he really hooked up with and what he learned.

I think the tracy's and all of the other pretenders to the throne are smart enough to know that the throne they can't sit upon is Parkerr's because he left too many books and witnesses to his history and knowledge. they can't claim the Kajukenpo throne because too much of its history is well documented too.

So lets pick other guy's throne to take. Some con man, extortionist and murderer who claimed to be some "kick butt" martial arts guy - we'll get a piece of paper from him (while he was in prison), something that says "You are the sucessor."

Like I said, I haven't decided yet about Mitose/Chow. If you can furnish some hard documentation that shows otherwise (like something that shows Mitose could move and fight; and that he did more than have someone sign a black belt cert for Chow; chow who incidentally had a 5th in Judo and knew some kung fu forms--but never learned any Kung fu from his dad); then I'd look at that documentation and see if I concurred. I'm just getting too old to believe everything everyone tells me.

No offense intended.

 

[Ray]

(Although I must admit that the kenpo flame bears a sort of resemblance to the compass and the square that LDS members have stitched into their sacred garments...I have found some wierd stuff, but like I said, from mostly anti-Mormon sites, so I tend to assume them to be less than credible overall.

I'll compare my garms to the flame patch tonight. I've never noticed any compairson before.

 

[KenpoDave]

Apparently Chow debated that fact, as in the interview with Perkins in jul 05 Black Belt magazine. And I'm pretty sure that I've seen it elsewhere.

Hmm, then where did Chow learn his kenpo?

If Chow had earned a 5th Dan in Judo before meeting up with Mitose {something I only recently discovered}; and if Chow had pretty much "run the streets" after his mother died, who's to know who he really hooked up with and what he learned.

A 5th dan in judo is not kenpo. Neither is what he learned running the streets. His kenpo training came from Mitose. And judo was not what he taught Ed Parker.

Like I said, I haven't decided yet about Mitose/Chow. If you can furnish some hard documentation that shows otherwise (like something that shows Mitose could move and fight;

What sort of documentation shows that someone could move and fight? How about the fact that Emperado calls Mitose a "master instructor?"

and that he did more than have someone sign a black belt cert for Chow;

It is more than Chow did for Parker. The signature on Parker's certificate that is circulating on the internet does not match the signature on Chow's application for a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth. Parker may have had another black belt certificate from Chow, but the one on the internet is not it.

chow who incidentally had a 5th in Judo and knew some kung fu forms--but never learned any Kung fu from his dad)

Again, a 5th dan in judo and knowledge of some kung fu forms does not mean that Chow did not learn Kenpo from Mitose. How about reading Mitose's book? There is page after page of Chow being the uke for Thomas Young and for Mitose. While it does not certify that Mitose could move and fight, it certainly is hard evidence that Chow trained under Mitose and accepted his role as "junior" to both Mitose and Thomas Young.

 

[KenpoDave]

Apparently Chow debated that fact, as in the interview with Perkins in jul 05 Black Belt magazine.

What did Parker say about it?

Secrets of the Magician of Motion...ED PARKER.
(First appeared in Black Belt Magazine, July 1979)
By John Corbett


"But he made a "convert" of Parker then and there with a quick show of technique. Impressed, Parker soon went to his churchmate's brother, William Chow, and began his lifelong involvement with the martial arts.
After further studies with Chow and kenpoist James Mitose, Parker enrolled at Brigham Young University (BYU) in Provo, Utah, in 1949. His college studies interrupted by the Korean conflict and military service, Parker returned to BYU in 1954. While still a student, he began teaching kenpo at a local body-building gymnasium."

"Kenpo is the system I teach," he said. "If, however, we were to examine( my methods carefully, the system could very easily bear my name." Though the system bears his stamp, the kenpoist still gives credit where it is due. He is careful to note the source of his methods in the teachings of James Mitose and William Chow.""

So, do you believe that Mitose taught kenpo to William Chow?

 

[KenpoDave]

I'll compare my garms to the flame patch tonight. I've never noticed any compairson before.

I apologize, it is not the flame of which I am thinking, but rather the little belt patch. The way the knot overlaps looks like a sort of compass and square.

 

[Dave Simmons]

Just a little heads up for you folks! Professor Chow had exposure to judo and jiu jitsu he never practiced those MA. According to Sig Kaufferath (Danzen Jiu Jitsu) who knew both Mitose, Chow and Emperado. Sig stated that Chow did not like falling. Chow only watched these MA to work on defenses against them. Chow did not study Gung Fu according to the old Hawaii sources.

Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate

 

[Ray]

Just a little heads up for you folks! Professor Chow had exposure to judo and jiu jitsu he never practiced those MA. According to Sig Kaufferath (Danzen Jiu Jitsu) who knew both Mitose, Chow and Emperado. Sig stated that Chow did not like falling. Chow only watched these MA to work on defenses against them. Chow did not study Gung Fu according to the old Hawaii sources.

In an interview of Mr. Emperado, I believe on John Bishop's web site, Mr. Emperado is quoted as saying the Chow had a "5th degree black belt in judo."

Personally, I'm not convinced that Mitose taught Chow - and to put it another way, I'm not certain he didn't either. I may never know, and it probably won't make a whole lot of difference in my life.

 

[Ray]

I apologize, it is not the flame of which I am thinking, but rather the little belt patch. The way the knot overlaps looks like a sort of compass and square.

I don't know about that. The flame patch looks more like the shape of the evil big brothers of Casper the Friendly Ghost than anything else (to me).

I did notice several similarities between my instructor's studio {in Utah} and my mormon meeting house: They both had floors, walls, doors and windows. Oh, yes, they were both carpeted. Maybe there is a connection between EPAK and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

 

[KenpoDave]

Maybe there is a connection between EPAK and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

My dojo shows connections to things that interest me.

Joseph Smith used the rituals of freemasonry when he made up LDS. Perhaps Parker did the same when he made up EPAK.

Anyway, you asked for hard evidence that Mitose taught Chow. I gave you Ed Parker's words (with a reference as to where you can look it up), as well as Mitose's book where Chow is pictured as a student junior to Mitose. You are still not convinced. You refuse to accept fact when making up your mind. Makes you a little less than credible when discusssing history, traditions, and facts in other areas, so I see no point in continuing here, only to offer that Chow's brother, John Chow-Hoon, taught a martial art that he called Kosho Ryu Kenpo, and used the same crest as Mitose.

I would love to see some evidence of Chow's 5th dan in Judo, though.

 

[Ray]

Anyway, you asked for hard evidence that Mitose taught Chow. I gave you Ed Parker's words (with a reference as to where you can look it up), as well as Mitose's book where Chow is pictured as a student junior to Mitose. You are still not convinced. You refuse to accept fact when making up your mind. Makes you a little less than credible when discusssing history, traditions, and facts in other areas,

Thanks for the kind words. Although I haven't made up my mind yet, and I haven't looked at the references you gave yet. Of course, since I haven't made up my mind, you can't accuse me of not accepting fact - I'm still in the process. At this point, sorting out the history of kenpo isn't my number one priority. Just be patient with me and continue to warmly fellowship me.

Joseph Smith used the rituals of freemasonry when he made up LDS. Perhaps Parker did the same when he made up EPAK.

Dave, I've read all the anti-Mormon literature and used to repeat it to Mormons that I worked with in Utah {for over twelve years}; so if you're going for the shock effect it ain't going to work. If Parker made up EPAK from Mormonism, then that would make the Mormons some pretty efficient "Christian soldiers." [/QUOTE]

so I see no point in continuing here

That's the best thing you've said so far.

 

[Sigung86]

There have been several people removed from the Tracy family tree, including George Elmer, Dan Farmer, & J. Larry Taylor. I am sure these are not the only 3 out there, the chances of me being familiar with all three of them are prety slim.

As for saying Al Tracy worships the dollars, well it seems to me to be the biggest motivation when removing people from his family tree.

I have studied both EPAK and Tracy's system and have found more diversity and personal growth in EPAK. But I have said in the past better to study Tracy's Kenpo than no Kenpo at all.

Lest we forget, and in the spirit of the whole brouhahahahah here, one more name you can add to the list is Dave Simmons.

 

[The Kai]

Actually Parker always pointed to Chow as his influrnce. parker never said mitose alone. I was taught by mitose and chow.

Mitose was the publisher/author of said book, that's probably why Chow was seen as the Jr in the photo's

 

[Dave Simmons]

"Lest we forget, and in the spirit of the whole brouhahahahah here, one more name you can add to the list is Dave Simmons."

On the contrary, I have not been removed from the Tracy Family Tree. You are incorrect.

Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate
e-mail: [email protected]