tought martial arts

Manny

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Hi everyone, first let me tell you I'm not a versed person in martial arts, I train TKD and know some others martial arts because of a short experience with them or cause I've seen them. For me Kyokushing Kai Karate (Mass Oyama) is one of the toughtest MA I know, I shearch in youtube videos or clips of this japanese martial art and it seems to me that in some times it's a little brutal for say something. What do you think off? do you know another MA si harsh?

Manny
 

CDKJudoka

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Hi everyone, first let me tell you I'm not a versed person in martial arts, I train TKD and know some others martial arts because of a short experience with them or cause I've seen them. For me Kyokushing Kai Karate (Mass Oyama) is one of the toughtest MA I know, I shearch in youtube videos or clips of this japanese martial art and it seems to me that in some times it's a little brutal for say something. What do you think off? do you know another MA si harsh?

Manny


Kyokushin is a very brutal art, but no more than any other. Mas Oyama, a Korean by the way, was a very tough man by anyones standards and that made his art the same way. The other brutal art is Muay Thai. Kyokushinkai is a lighter offshoot of Kyokushin with more kata I believe. I haven't studied KK, but I have been doing traditional TKD for quite some time and we were sparing the same way the KK guys do, no protection save a mouthguard and cup. It's only recently that we started sparring with gear, and it is silly point karate gear.
 

dancingalone

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Depends on what you mean by brutal. Kyokushin is infamous for their 100 man kumite trials; one must have endurance and a high tolerance for pain to complete the gauntlet.

Brutal training can take fashion in other ways such as intensity. Traditional goju-ryu training includes extensive body conditioning and building through sanchin kata and use of traditional instruments like nigiri-game or clay pots and the chiishi or stone hammer. The number of people who train this way are probably too small for my taste, but it still exists all over the world where true Goju has spread. Below is a movie that illustrates why I am talking about. Over time, your body becomes very strong under this type of regimen, and the muscle gained is useful universally since the characteristic movement is more than what you would gain from simple weight-lifting.



This is an example of sanchin shime testing.


It's fairly subdued even if Sensei Higaonna is testing truely. During extreme sanchin demonstrations, it's not uncommon for the person demonstrating to be hit with wooden planks or kicked and punched in the legs or gut. Much of the reason for sanchin is to build up your body's capacity for taking punishment, especially in the torso, so use your imagination and think about how hard the contact can be during private training sessions.

Hung gar kung fu has lot of strenuous stance sets that will leave you weak-legged and the floor wet from puddles of sweat. They also do lots of hand strength exercises, too.

Anyway, all arts can be 'brutal' if you practice them the way they should be: with a physical conditioning component, a high level of bodily contact, and a tough-minded environment where some bleeding and bruising is expected.
 
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dancingalone

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Enshin http://www.enshin.com/
Shidokan http://www.shidokan.com/
Seido Kaikan- Kazuyoshi Ishii's organization is K-1 http://www.k-1.co.jp/k-1gp/index.htm


The brutality that you speak of is in the style of sparring. Knockdown karate can be very nasty, but that is what makes it so fun.

I have all the respect in the world for kyokushin and its offshoots, but I prefer to leave jiyu (free) kumite for rare occasions, perhaps once or twice a quarter. When we put on the pads, all targets are permitted other than than the throat and eyes, and we allow a greater range in hand strikes (shuto, nukite, etc permitted). The kyokushin model is great for building endurance and toughness, but I still believe it conditions a karate-ka to use a sport fighting style.
 

ATC

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I like KK because it uses some of the same kicks that TKD uses. The founder of KK is Korean so I wonder if he was not influenced by some the TKD kicking techniques.
 

dancingalone

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I like KK because it uses some of the same kicks that TKD uses. The founder of KK is Korean so I wonder if he was not influenced by some the TKD kicking techniques.

Nah. You're seeing the inevitable cross-pollination as KK fighters pick up the more powerful Korean kicking methods for sports usage, but it's doubtful Oyama himself was influenced by TKD. You have to remember he preceded the advent of TKD and was in fact asked by General Choi to return to Korea to be the face of the art that become known as tae kwon do.

Oyama's non-sport expression of karate is actually a syncretic blend of shotokan karate with goju-ryu karate. I believe he's been quoted as saying tensho, one of the goju kata, is the most important one to know and understand.
 

Omar B

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KK's kick evolutions is an ongoing thing. I'm not surprised there are Korean style kicks in there, some of the most brutal kicks I've ever trained in are Korean, plus we've seen KK's addition of the Brazil kick which is damn devastating. As for newer kicking coming in I see a lot of Tang Su Do in there.
 

Flying Crane

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actually, any art can be trained in a way so that the individual is capable of using it in a brutal way.

In my opinion, it's really the individual, and less the art, altho there is truth in the notion that some arts have fostered a stronger tradition of this kind of training than others.
 

Flying Crane

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plus we've seen KK's addition of the Brazil kick which is damn devastating.

What is the Brazilian kick?

Perhaps he is referring to the meia lua de compasso, also known as rabo de arraia. These names translate as "half moon on the horizon" and "stingray's tail" and refer to the same technique, which is a staple in the capoeira curriculum.

When done properly, it can be a very powerful kick, and some Asian and other arts have adopted this technique from capoeria.
 

Martin h

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Kyokushinkai is a lighter offshoot of Kyokushin with more kata I believe.

No. Its the same thing.
Kyokushin is the style. Kyokushinkai refers to practicioners of kyokushin as a group (kai=society).
 

Tez3

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brutal training? any art can be trained in a brutal fashion

a brutal art? Lua, Kajukenbo

Exactly, it's not the arts that are soft, its the people training them!
Much is made of the 'brutality' of MMA but we use techniques that come from TMAs so as TF says any art can be trained in a brutal fashion, it's up to you!
 

Omar B

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The Brazil kick is not apart of the Seido curriculum either but i added it myself. But then I've added a lot of Kyokushin stuff, as well as Tang Soo Do and Choi Kwang Do. But by far that's one of the most impressive kicks I've seen.
 

ATC

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This is an example of sanchin shime testing.


It's fairly subdued even if Sensei Higaonna is testing truely. During extreme sanchin demonstrations, it's not uncommon for the person demonstrating to be hit with wooden planks or kicked and punched in the legs or gut. Much of the reason for sanchin is to build up your body's capacity for taking punishment, especially in the torso, so use your imagination and think about how hard the contact can be during private training sessions.

Hung gar kung fu has lot of strenuous stance sets that will leave you weak-legged and the floor wet from puddles of sweat. They also do lots of hand strength exercises, too.

Anyway, all arts can be 'brutal' if you practice them the way they should be: with a physical conditioning component, a high level of bodily contact, and a tough-minded environment where some bleeding and bruising is expected.
I worked with a lady that was a 1st Dan in this art. Her husband was a 3rd Dan. They invited me to a demo they were doing and they demonstrated this sanchin shime (with kids). I was impressed. I tried some of this after they gave me a brief explanation and it takes focus I can tell you that much they only slapped my gut, arms, and legs but I flinched each time. I could tell the guy was not hitting me as hard as they even hit the kids. They guy who slapped me had hands like wood too. But my Sabunims feet and shins feel like baseball bats too.

The one thing I took from the demo was how tough they all were. They would do a kata or form and then do the same form again with live people to represent how the kata applied in combat. Many of the kata's had them taking someone to the floor. Well this was on a hard basket ball floor and they held nothing back. The people that got knocked to the floor really got knocked down and it looked like it hurt.

I do have to tell you that her husband was out on disability (he did none of the demo) for back problems for the past 3 years too. He owns the school that she teaches in but you can tell he is in a lot of pain.

Again what impressed me the most was the kids and how tough they were with the sanchin shime kata.

Now with that said, they were not too skilled when it came to fighting. They were easy to hit and setup, but then again this was not something they practiced all that much it seemed.

Mix this with the speed of TKD and you got something. Oh yea they have this already. It's called Kyokushin

But being serious, I enjoyed the demo.
 
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dancingalone

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I worked with a lady that was a 1st Dan in this art. Her husband was a 3rd Dan. They invited me to a demo they were doing and they demonstrated this sanchin shime (with kids). I was impressed. I tried some of this after they gave me a brief explanation and it takes focus I can tell you that much they only slapped my gut, arms, and legs but I flinched each time. I could tell the guy was not hitting me as hard as they even hit the kids. They guy who slapped me had hands like wood too. But my Sabunims feet and shins feel like baseball bats too.

Much of the pain can be mitigated by development of muscle tissue across your body. A big part of this type of testing is for you to be able to tense and relax various muscle groups, so you can isolate and work them physically to build them up.

The one thing I took from the demo was how tough they all were. They would do a kata or form and then do the same form again with live people to represent how the kata applied in combat. Many of the kata's had them taking someone to the floor. Well this was on a hard basket ball floor and they held nothing back. The people that got knocked to the floor really got knocked down and it looked like it hurt.

I do have to tell you that her husband was out on disability (he did none of the demo) for back problems for the past 3 years too. He owns the school that she teaches in but you can tell he is in a lot of pain.

Again what impressed me the most was the kids and how tough they were with the sanchin shime kata.

Now with that said, they were not too skilled when it came to fighting. They were easy to hit and setup, but then again this was not something they practiced all that much it seemed.

It's all about what you practice. If you spar a lot, you will get good at sparring. If you don't, well, you'd better hope you are building timing and a sense of power delivery through other means, since you'd be SOL in a fight without these attributes.

A huge part of goju-ryu IS about physical condtioning, but if that's all one focuses on, one is missing out on a lot. And goju is as safe as any other martial art. In fact the physical training should keep one strong and fit well through the middle years and beyond. It's a very balanced system when taught in full - it does mean the hard and soft way, after all.

Mix this with the speed of TKD and you got something. Oh yea they have this already. It's called Kyokushin

But being serious, I enjoyed the demo.

I like kyokushin sparring too, but I prefer slightly modified rules which allow more sweeps and takedowns.
 
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