tkd/sbd

[Manny]

I've been seeing some soo back do clips and seems quite interesting to me, I know SBD is a korean martial art too and want to know the diferences amoung it and TKD, itos SBD the same cat than TSD?

SBD is very new in my country and we have maybe no more thna 5 dojangs none of them located near my town but I am intrigued about this korean MA.

The masters of SBD in Mexico all are TKD people from Moo Duk Kwan one of them is Ramiro Guzman who has a high rank in Kukiwon and for several years was a competitor of TKD and Full Contact, don't know why ramiro left Moo Dik Kwan TKD organization and now is a top person in SBD.

Manny

 

[SahBumNimRush]

yes and no Manny. SBD is the end result of Hwang Kee's (Moo Duk Kwan founder) evolution of his art. In the end, Hwang Kee incorporated much more of a Chinese influence than Japanese influence with the art. If you youtube the higher form sets like the Yuk Ro forms or the Chil Sung forms you will see a much more of a Chinese influence in the forms, compared to the Japanese Pyung Ahn forms, Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto, and Kong Sang Kun forms.

Hwang Kee studied the Moo Ye Do Bo Tong Ji, and created the Yuk Ro and Chil Sung forms after his study of the text. The Moo Ye Do Bo Tong Ji was largely based from a Chinese military text and was written in 1790, I believe.

Shippalgi (korean Kung Fu) is also largely based off of this text.

So basically, IMO, Soo Bahk Do is a blending of Japanese, Chinese, and Korean techniques.

My Kwan Jang Nim only teaches from the Japanese perspective, so the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms look very strange to me. I have no idea what the moves are or mean.

 

[dancingalone]

yes and no Manny. SBD is the end result of Hwang Kee's (Moo Duk Kwan founder) evolution of his art. In the end, Hwang Kee incorporated much more of a Chinese influence than Japanese influence with the art. If you youtube the higher form sets like the Yuk Ro forms or the Chil Sung forms you will see a much more of a Chinese influence in the forms, compared to the Japanese Pyung Ahn forms, Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto, and Kong Sang Kun forms.

I don't understand the blending myself. Hwang Kee reported studied some form of Yang Tai Chi Chuan, something I have delved into a little myself. When I watch the Youtube videos of the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms, I really don't see much tai chi chuan myself in the performances. The stances and energy expressed are different. Don't see any tang lang or tan tui in these forms either although they are said to be part of the influences in the Sip Palgi.

I am not sure how much of Hwang Kee's own martial arts is seen in today's expressions of SBD. I am sure a SBD person would say 100% though.

 

[Manny]

In the clips I've seen there are alot of Chinese movements and a few japanese and ofcourse the kicks of korean type, I like the forms I must admit it, they are not robotic, instead the kovements flow in circular patterns (chinese) and in straight line moves (japanese).

So SBD is more like TSD with with more Chines inlfunece or moves (techs) and the only thing in comon with TKD are certain kicks.

Perhaps, this MA that uses korean (kicks) + hand techs (chinese+japanese) is a well rounded style.

Manny

 

[Manny]

BTW, afther seen the SBD clips now I get it, TKD has japanese influence, at least the KKW TKD because the hand techs tha TKD has are very linear and abrupt like the karate does. Maybe the WTF has tried to erase the japanese influence trought olimpic almost kicking sparring but the MA inside the TKD has hand techs tan can be traced to japan.

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

In the clips I've seen there are alot of Chinese movements and a few japanese and ofcourse the kicks of korean type, I like the forms I must admit it, they are not robotic, instead the kovements flow in circular patterns (chinese) and in straight line moves (japanese).

So SBD is more like TSD with with more Chines inlfunece or moves (techs) and the only thing in comon with TKD are certain kicks.

Perhaps, this MA that uses korean (kicks) + hand techs (chinese+japanese) is a well rounded style.

Manny

Manny, I am not necessarily addressing this to you. It's more for public consumption.

I've never liked the martial arts meme that circular = Chinese and linear = Japanese. Systems like aikido or jujutsu are undoubtedly Japanese and they are very circular in their movements. If we need a karate cognate, there are examples there too.

I see very little in SBD forms that actually approaches specifically tai chi chuan or tanglangquan. Heck, it'd be 'fun' to post a Chil Sung form onto the CMA forum and ask the locals there what they think about the so-called Chinese influences.

I am coming off harsh undoubtedly, but this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. If we want to study something 'Chinese', why not go study an actual Chinese martial art and try to preserve an authentic style that in many cases will be lost forever in a matter of years? I see a lot of the same windmill tilting with the crane chasers in karate. If they're so interested in crane forms, why not go ahead and switch to Fukien white crane? It's readily available to train in after all.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I don't understand the blending myself. Hwang Kee reported studied some form of Yang Tai Chi Chuan, something I have delved into a little myself. When I watch the Youtube videos of the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms, I really don't see much tai chi chuan myself in the performances. The stances and energy expressed are different. Don't see any tang lang or tan tui in these forms either although they are said to be part of the influences in the Sip Palgi.

I am not sure how much of Hwang Kee's own martial arts is seen in today's expressions of SBD. I am sure a SBD person would say 100% though.

To be honest, I don't understand it either, but I have no background in these techniques as they are not taught in my association. Furthermore I have absolutely nothing to base them on from a Chinese MA perspective either.

The only thing I know for certain, is that Hwang Kee studied the Moo Ye Do Bo Tong Ji, and based these forms, atleast in part, off of this text. Owning a copy of the text myself, I do not understand how you could really learn much from it. It appears to be nothing more than a book containing military drills, with archaic descriptions.

I have also wondered about Hwang Kee's Yang Tai Chi Chuan heritage too. I know that my Kwan Jang Nim joined the Moo Duk Kwan in the 1950's (he's very closed about where he came from prior to that, but that's another story), and nothing my kwan jang nim teaches has any resemblance to anything I've seen in CMA's. It seems to me that the MDK TKD that I practice is very much rooted in Shotokan with some obvious tweaks that are common among the original kwans.