Mixing up a little

[Manny]

I'm going to teach ho si sool soon, my students are asimilating well the one steps so I want to keep doing them but want go a little forward and want to incorporated some kenpo self defense techs to the korean ho-si-sul.

In my own ho-si-sool I have integrated some techs/moves from aikido,judo and kenpo so maybe my arsenal is not to broad but I have some interesting moves.

My question is, if you were an instructor o senior black belt instructor could this be bad thing to the eye of your master/sambonin?

It's weird but there are masters out there who refuses to acepta new techs from another martial arts cause they believe his martial art is the best and no need for new tricks.

Also I have to tell you when I do kenpo techs in some way my postures or my way of reacting is kenpo way and I don't want my sambonin think I am teaching kenpo because it's not.

I like to take what I feel useful from another martial arts and blended with my TKD.

I don't know how to fight in the ground ala brazilian jujitsu, but if I did I would love to teach some ground fight too.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

...want to incorporated some kenpo self defense techs...

...I don't want my sambonin think I am teaching kenpo because it's not.

Manny

Hi Manny,
Your comment about taking techniques from other arts makes it sound like you're trying to justify doing that. Your past posts (other discussions) say your master gives you some freedom. Since it's still his school with his name on it I think you should always give him the courtesy of asking his okay. It's always better to ask than assume. What your wrote above does make it sound like kenpo to me.

Carl

 

[terryl965]

Manny mixing and blending other arts and techs are what makes a great person in the arts. But the problem I see here is really one that you get making, that being not getting your Master approval before showing and doing these things in his school. There is a line between being dis-respectful that some may say you have crossed over the years with him. Please find time to talk and explain what you are trying to bring inside his school before he get mad and ask you to leave. I know if my instructor was bringing thing into my school without first talking to me, than I would most likely be mad. If they took the time to ask and explain things than I would not be and would most likely incorproae some things to help our students.

 

[Manny]

Thank you for the quick replies, I will think about it, something I don't want to is to upset my sambonim.

Since I got inside my actual dojang my sambonim knows my curriculum, he knows I studied some judo and some aikido and also knows I have a few friends who are black belts in other martial arts whom I hang on once in a while, yes he does not know I did crosstraing in kenpo.

Well the fact is that since the begining I used my own techs in one step sparring and ho-si-sul and even there is one tech that sambonim put my name on it because he liked a lot when I performed it. My sambonim has see me performing the techs I know and also has taught me another ones.

I will speak with my sambonim next week and confirm if I have some kind of carte blanch to teach the old guys some self defense techs with a little influence of another martial arts.

Manny

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm going to teach ho si sool soon, my students are asimilating well the one steps so I want to keep doing them but want go a little forward and want to incorporated some kenpo self defense techs to the korean ho-si-sul.

Just so that you are aware, it is ho-sin-sul, not ho-si-sul, and is pronounced hoshinsul.

In my own ho-si-sool I have integrated some techs/moves from aikido,judo and kenpo so maybe my arsenal is not to broad but I have some interesting moves.

My question is, if you were an instructor o senior black belt instructor could this be bad thing to the eye of your master/sambonin?

It's weird but there are masters out there who refuses to acepta new techs from another martial arts cause they believe his martial art is the best and no need for new tricks.

Also I have to tell you when I do kenpo techs in some way my postures or my way of reacting is kenpo way and I don't want my sambonin think I am teaching kenpo because it's not.

I like to take what I feel useful from another martial arts and blended with my TKD.

I don't know how to fight in the ground ala brazilian jujitsu, but if I did I would love to teach some ground fight too.

Manny

So far as I know, Kukki taekwondo has no official hoshinsul, so any hoshinsul will have been culled from another art (usually hapkido). So I don't see what you are doing as problematic. As to what you sabeomnim may think, you'd have to ask.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

So far as I know, Kukki taekwondo has no official hoshinsul, so any hoshinsul will have been culled from another art (usually hapkido).

It depends how you define hoshinsul...

For example, the Kukkiwon textbook covers (on pages 604 through to 629) self-defence:

• Seated on the floor
• Sitting on chairs
• Defending against a short club attack
• Defending against a long bar
• Defending against a knife
• Defending against a sword
• Defending against a pistol
• Defending against a rifle/bayonet

If you specifically mean defending (against anything) where joint locks, etc are involved then then p595 shows a defence where the shoulder is locked (actually I prefer to do this movement against the elbow, I find it more effective) p597 shows a wrist lock, p599 shows a take down, etc.

Modern Taekwondo definitely does have self-defence elements. They may have come from Hapkido in the past (I'm not familiar with the founders or Hapkido to know), but they are now considered a bona-fide part of Taekwondo.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It depends how you define hoshinsul...

For example, the Kukkiwon textbook covers (on pages 604 through to 629) self-defence:

• Seated on the floor
• Sitting on chairs
• Defending against a short club attack
• Defending against a long bar
• Defending against a knife
• Defending against a sword
• Defending against a pistol
• Defending against a rifle/bayonet

If you specifically mean defending (against anything) where joint locks, etc are involved then then p595 shows a defence where the shoulder is locked (actually I prefer to do this movement against the elbow, I find it more effective) p597 shows a wrist lock, p599 shows a take down, etc.

Interesting. I have the two volume soft cover set of KKW textbooks (one orange, one blue) and did not see any of that in there. I will have to pick up the larger hardcover book.

Modern Taekwondo definitely does have self-defence elements. They may have come from Hapkido in the past (I'm not familiar with the founders or Hapkido to know), but they are now considered a bona-fide part of Taekwondo.

While I question the accuracy of that last part (though I would be very happy if it is accurate), what I meant was that there is no required sets as there are with the form. So while the concepts may exist within TKD, Manny would not be countermanding or altering a proscribed set of moves.

From what I have seen, most TKD hosinsul is culled from hapkido and most schools that have added groundfighting have culled it from BJJ. I know for fact that in the ITF, the hoshinsul is definitely culled from hapkido; the General brought in a hapkido master to establish it.

Daniel

 

[Manny]

Just a tought. We had in jido kwan sets of one steps sparring, in fact we had then numbered but as long as I remeber we did not have sets of self defense techs. The self defense techs are universal, I mean I've seen self defense techs from karate do very alike the ones used in TKD and even Kenpo. For example the way to break adouble lap grab or a choke in some techs of kempo are almost the same but with diferent flavor. A tech agaist a head lock has many ways of do it, Hapkidoka can perform it one way and judoka another way but at the end the result is the same, so I think self defense techs are universal and has no name or brand on them.

In TKD we have a tech against a wrist grab that is almost the same in kenpo the diference is the cup of greace, in TKD we finish the bad guy with a sweep and a punch in the floor, in kenpo we finish the guy with an elbow to the spine, however the way of break the grab is the same.

There are thousands of self defense techs and I think several of them are universal so I think they can be teach in the korean way with any trouble.

Manny

 

[puunui]

I'm going to teach ho si sool soon, my students are asimilating well the one steps so I want to keep doing them but want go a little forward and want to incorporated some kenpo self defense techs to the korean ho-si-sul.

What kind of kenpo did you study?

 

[puunui]

Just so that you are aware, it is ho-sin-sul, not ho-si-sul, and is pronounced hoshinsul.

And while we are on it, it's Sabumnim or Sabeomnim, pronounced Sah Bum Nim. It's not Sambonim.

Also, gup rhymes with soup, not cup. Probably a better phonetic spelling would be goop.

 

[puunui]

We had in jido kwan sets of one steps sparring, in fact we had then numbered but as long as I remeber we did not have sets of self defense techs.

Did you ever learn the Jidokwan step drills?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think its a good idea to mix it up Manny. We have a 5th dan who our instructor uses to to teach self defence some nights and also does a lot of club demos. He has spent a lot of time outside of tkd doing aikido, hapkido and karate, he has spent years doing them (Im pretty sure he has black belt in either hapkido, aikido or both), and he has basically taken what he likes out of all of them and mixes it up a lot. I really enjoy learnig from him because if a tech isnt working for me for whatever reason, he is able to find a similar tech that may suit me better or put a different perspective on the original tech. Throw all the ideas in together and use the ones you like.

 

[andyjeffries]

Also, gup rhymes with soup, not cup. Probably a better phonetic spelling would be goop.

Really? I understood the hangul was 급. Every Korean book I have teaches this vowel like the 'e' in spoken (which sounds a lot closer to cup than coop). I'm sure you've heard more Koreans saying this word than I have, but maybe it's a regional dialect thing? I know this vowel is used in place of consonants only when transliterating western names (and it would seem weird to use a long vowel sound in that situation).

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Really? I understood the hangul was 급. Every Korean book I have teaches this vowel like the 'e' in spoken (which sounds a lot closer to cup than coop). I'm sure you've heard more Koreans saying this word than I have, but maybe it's a regional dialect thing? I know this vowel is used in place of consonants only when transliterating western names (and it would seem weird to use a long vowel sound in that situation).

My GM is korean and pronounces it "gup" and my previous instructor who speaks fluent korean lived in korea for three years teaching english and he also pronounces it 'gup'. You might be right, it may be a regional thing.

 

[andyjeffries]

A good website for language pronunciation is:

http://www.forvo.com/word/급

That guy pronounces it longer than I do, but not as long as I would pronounce Coop/Coup.

You need to be able to type hangul (or find it somewhere else to copy/paste) but it's great. For example, here's how to pronounce Taekwondo correctly:

http://www.forvo.com/word/태권도/

The sound in Geup is also at 7:30 in the following video. If I heard someone pronounce it as Coop/Coup and I would think the hangul vowel was 우 - 7:19 in this video.

Learn Korean 1

 

[andyjeffries]

Did you ever learn the Jidokwan step drills?

I'm not jidokwan, but I've often thought about doing this. I've lost count of the number of times students have asked me over the years to teach them some new one step drills - it would be much easier if there was a standard set (even just in our club) so everyone knew the progression and we could add more if people wanted them.

 

[Earl Weiss]

In TKD we have a tech against a wrist grab that is almost the same in kenpo the diference is the cup of greace,

Manny

Had me thinkin' for a while on this one

For those still thinkin'
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coup+de+grace

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Really? I understood the hangul was 급.

That would be geup or geub. Eu, kind of like ew in crew.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

That would be geup or geub. Eu, kind of like ew in crew.

I've just thought, this may come down to English vs American pronunciation, rather than Korean

In English, crew is quite a long vowel sound (like "ooooh"). That is not supposed to be how the 으 vowel sound is made in Korean (according to the links I'd previously posted). That is supposed to be how the 우 sound is made. But, while reflecting on this I just remembered that we don't even have the same pronunciation of the English/American words so maybe we are all arguing for the same pronunciation in our respective countries.

Do you disagree with the links I posted previously on the pronunciation?

 

[puunui]

In English, crew is quite a long vowel sound (like "ooooh"). That is not supposed to be how the 으 vowel sound is made in Korean (according to the links I'd previously posted). That is supposed to be how the 우 sound is made. But, while reflecting on this I just remembered that we don't even have the same pronunciation of the English/American words so maybe we are all arguing for the same pronunciation in our respective countries. Do you disagree with the links I posted previously on the pronunciation?

I understand what you are saying about long or short. I also watched that lady professor's youtube video as well and she makes these distinctions, but then the written part doesn't match what she is saying. Also my name has the soo or su sound in it, and before I started telling them how to write it, they would sometimes spell it in hangul with or without the downward stroke on the second character above on my monogrammed belts. I think to everyone but the native speaker, these distinctions are hard to hear much less say properly. But the point I am trying to make is that it is a closer pronunciation to goop that it is to cup.

I sometimes hear Korean born instructors pronouncing it like cup, but they are the same ones that pronounce it Tie Kwondo. I think they got tired of trying to correct the students and gave up trying. I am sure there are english words that americans pronounce differently, and no doubt your pronunciation is the correct one, given that you are english living in england, but that doesn't make the American pronunciation correct.