Toughening knuckles (Please read more than the title)

[Steel Accord]

Does punching something hard actually toughen the knuckles, assuming one is doing it right? I understand even if true this takes a long time, what in MA doesn't? I just don't want to start a training exercise that isn't going to do what I think it does in the long run.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Punching hard improperly damages your knuckles and had. Punching things properly, under the supervision of someone who knows how to train such things properly, toughens the knuckles and the hand. But to do it wrong, can and will cripple your hands.

 

[Buka]

We've always found the best way to build callouses on your front two knuckles - which will toughen your knuckles when you punch correctly - is to do push ups on roofing shingles. Start slow, work the numbers up. Do them for a year or two.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I propose a larger question: why do you need your knuckles that tough?

Here's why I ask: there's ample evidence that hitting hard objects enough to toughen the hands can actually cause real harm in the long run. For pretty much all likely use of the hands in combat, practicing against a tough, padded target will provide sufficient toughness. This can range from a well-filled heavy bag to a somewhat padded makiwara. The padding will reduce the chance of long-term damage.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I am of the opinion that toughening or desensitizing the knuckles is done primarily to allow a person to punch harder without experiencing pain.

I am also of the opinion that most people do not punch as hard as they are capable of punching, with or without pain. Most people frankly can't punch worth a dang.

Therefore, my 2 cents is that first learn to punch. Then learn the limits of your punching ability without experiencing extreme pain. Then, if you still think you need to hit harder, consider makiwara training under a good instructor.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I saw a movie where, a guy ran around punching a piece if plate steel, he held in his other hand. I would imagine, you could build a toughness without breaking your hand.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Quoted from Reddit, and I haven't had a chance to verify it properly, so take it with a grain of salt:

Upon repeat damage to the microstructure of bone, cells called osteoblasts are recruited to the site of "injury" to trigger a large cascade of actions. First, osteoblasts secrete chemical signals into the blood to recruit another cell type, osteoclasts, which are related to white blood cells in lineage. They break down small parts of the cortical bone surface around where the break happened. Then, the osteoblasts act to deposited new bone onto the gap created. The result is called an osteon, which is like a cylindrical sheath of new bone. This serves as the major structural improvement of the bone, giving it reinforced strength along the general axis of the initial break.

Actual changes in bone mineral density are a lot of systemic, and rely on osteoblasts to be able to deposite more hydroxyapatite (calcium crystal) into the collagen matrix that is bone. We don't think this is as relevant in cortical remodeling as it is in development (such as osteogenesis imperfect a, the disease Samuel L Jackson had in Unbreakable). Bone mineral density is also the enemy in osteoporosis.

As far as desensitization to pain, it's probably due to destruction of affront sensory fibers along the area of contact. Interesting thing, though, is that bone is heavily populated by nerves, and some of these are actually from the sympathetic nervous system, which has been recently discovered to have a major role in bone remodeling. Whether these nerves remain in tact or all nerves are lacking after such training has yet to be studied in a controlled animal model.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I saw a movie where, a guy ran around punching a piece if plate steel, he held in his other hand. I would imagine, you could build a toughness without breaking your hand.

Pan Qing Fu actually did that. His knuckles are so heavily callused it looks unnatural

 

[Touch Of Death]

Pan Qing Fu actually did that. His knuckles are so heavily callused it looks unnatural

That's him.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's him.

I did a seminar with him once, he is for real and those calluses hurt you when he just taps you

 

[JR 137]

Aside from calluses and what the Reddit quote* said, your body responds by laying down more compact bone.

Break a chicken bone. The hard, dense, thinner outside layer is compact bone. Inside that, where the marrow is is spongy bone. Chicken bones are hollow, but our bones aren't much different in a sense. We have more spongy bone where the chicken bone is hollow.

Look at an X-Ray. There's the bright white area on the outside of the bones, and the inside is gray. Repeated micro trauma to the bone will cause the bright white area to be thicker. I've seen X-Rays of people on documentaries who've done MA bone conditioning. The white area was so much thicker, and the gray area was reduced compared to normal people. Being in sports medicine, I've seen X-Rays of the healing process, and it was similar.

*The Reddit quote seems accurate. I didn't go through it with a fine toothed comb, but it seems right.

 

[Steve]

Pan Qing Fu actually did that. His knuckles are so heavily callused it looks unnatural

Are the callouses under those giant warts?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Are the callouses under those giant warts?

That is what they look like, But those are actually calluses built up from years of hitting a little steal plate he brings with him wherever he goes...I know, he tapped me on the head with one

 

[Flying Crane]

That is what they look like, But those are actually calluses built up from years of hitting a little steal plate he brings with him wherever he goes...I know, he tapped me on the head with one

And then you laughed in his face, didn't you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And then you laughed in his face, didn't you.

Actually no, Master Pan was a pretty serious guy and that was over 20 years ago. The wife of my shifu, at that time, asked him to prove some things he claimed, but was stopped by my shifu (First shifu) because he said you don't question master Pan.

My first shifu's wife was on one of the higher level wushu teams before she came here and was more often than not, going to tell you exactly what she thought.

But, as to his knuckles, even Master Pan said that TCM docs in China told him he needed to have those removed or he would end up crippled. That was over 20 years ago and I have no idea what shape he is in now.

 

[Flying Crane]

Actually no, Master Pan was a pretty serious guy and that was over 20 years ago. The wife of my shifu, at that time, asked him to prove some things he claimed, but was stopped by my shifu (First shifu) because he said you don't question master Pan.

My first shifu's wife was on one of the higher level wushu teams before she came here and was more often than not, going to tell you exactly what she thought.

But, as to his knuckles, even Master Pan said that TCM docs in China told him he needed to have those removed or he would end up crippled. That was over 20 years ago and I have no idea what shape he is in now.

Oh I know his reputation. Was just being silly.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh I know his reputation. Was just being silly.

Well then, I didn't laugh, but I did say ow

I also appreciated the questions of my first shifu's wife too. I liked the seminar, but Master Pan was a bit if a braggart

 

[Flying Crane]

Well then, I didn't laugh, but I did say ow

I also appreciated the questions of my first shifu's wife too. I liked the seminar, but Master Pan was a bit if a braggart

As I say, I am familiar with his reputation.

 

[Flying Crane]

I understand that he can well back up his ego, tho.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I understand that he can well back up his ego, tho.

That was my understanding as well.