Advice for hard punching with minimal padding, and still avoid ripping knuckle skin?

[Sammy Naur]

I don't hit any harder than a well packed heavy bag. For me it better if my knuckle can sink into the bag a little. Punching anything harder than that is less productive for stabbing with knuckles. If people want to turn their fist into a mace then they should hit something harder.

My thought is that people should condition the hand based on a set purpose for the types of strikes one uses.

May I point out, once again, none of these people who claim to hit hard surfaces like makiwara or other "iron fist" stuff is practical.

What is practical? Speed bag, heavy bag, or best, another human's rib cage because what we are talking about, if we're talking about martial arts? Hitting other humans.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Your logic here is A = B, B = C, therefore A = C. Where:

A = wrapping hands
B = safely train prolonged striking
C = being good at striking (or at least contributes to it)
Therefore: Wrapping hands leads to effective striking

This is wrong on multiple levels. Posting logical equations like this comes across as pretentious.

Trust me, people who wrap their hands can probably also knock you out easily.

Because there is repeated stress on the hands in boxing training on the heavy bag and in actual fighting, this logic applies. But what does hitting the heavy bag do? There are several advantages, but the most relevant for this discussion is that, firstly, it builds power. In particular, driving. crushing follow-thru power. (One doesn't stop as soon as the hand makes contact with the bag's surface.)

Why is this kind of power necessary in boxing? Since padded gloves are worn there is a lot of shock absorption before the punch force really takes effect. "Heavy hands" are needed to cause real damage (unless one aims to simply cut up the opponent for a TKO strategy). Secondly, extended work on the heavy bag builds muscle and cardio endurance. It's quite the workout.

So, I think I've defended your position in regard to boxing and your logic. But what is not taken into account is that there are other methodologies that are NOT dependent on A and B that contribute to effective striking, C.

Okinawan karate uses such a methodology. The kind of force required is different than described above. As karate is a bare-knuckle combat art, there is no power absorption by gloves. Hard knuckles make direct contact upon the opponent. This means damage is done with much less drive and follow-thru required.

Our punches (and kicks) are more of the snapping kind, fast and loose, adding power at the point of impact with very little follow thru. I assure you they are effective having been on both ends. And since self-defense encounters typically last less time than a boxing round or two, endurance is less of a concern. Not to mention that in karate the hands don't do all the work, much of the load taken up by elbows, locks and kicks.

So, karate is less reliant on the benefits of prolonged heavy bag punching work. Some of that time is spent training alternative methods of effective striking. Less heavy bag work and less hand/wrist stress in training, and less hand to body contact in actual application over extended time = less need for wraps.

All of this leads to different arts can be effective by using different methods. The sprinter and 10K runner are both good at running, but their running is different as is the way they train. I'm sure there is some overlap, and I think karate training should include some heavy bag work for its full range of benefits. We should be open minded and not think one way is the only way.

There's too much wrong with this post to go into detail, but it is another great example of talking down to posters here with a long winded analysis.

Let's face facts, Karate, from a "combat art" perspective is dead unless you're referring to certain formats like Kyokushin.

Karate would do well to learn a thing or two from boxing or Muay Thai in the area of hand wraps too, because hand injuries plague karateka who refuse to understand the simple, time proven value of wrapping your wrist and hand.

"The kind of force required is different than described above"

This is why I really have to dismiss everything you say going forward on this subject. Sorry, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about, and you can write an entire essay in retort, and the moderators are free to punish me for saying it.

 

[drop bear136 11]

I feel like you understand what I've been saying.

I do. But I am not going to kill myself if someone thinks that bare knuckle punching the bag hardens them up in some magical way.

My issue specifically was people were arguing that the street somehow determines the outcome. Which I think is a red herring.

I was discussing this with some friends the other day. And we came to the conclusion that bricklaying would be the best exercise.

Not only would it harden your hands. But it would add muscle mass. Which would make your hands heavier and make you hit harder.

 

[Xue Sheng128 3]

53 years, and no experience wrapping your fists? Serious question again, what full contact combat sport training do you actually have?

Yup 53 years, didn’t wrap wrist, had yo hit, grab, lovk and take folks down, can’t do that wrapped, especially in a real fight

Combat sports, really that is all you got … okie dokie

You're following this same trend of claiming, now 5 decades of experience, but how much of it was actually practical?

A lot, don’t need your approval or care whst you think. Many of you have cone snd gone on MT, most armchair martial artists

I am not insulting anyone. "drunk" was a metaphor and I made that clear.

Really a metaphor, nope nit buying that one, and you have insulted a few already in this thread before me

Yes not all styles are the same. Quite a few people here are making that point clearly, they have no real idea of what full contact martial arts training requires.

Apparently having actual confrontations, and there were a lot, with actual violent people who are actually intent on hurting you don’t count…. Interesting…

I find it ironic that several people here, including yourself, seem to be avoiding the fact that Muay Thai boxing applies here. Muay Thai boxing is probably one of the most effective martial arts in history, and they all use tape, wrap, and gloves

Who is ignoring the fact? What fact? Where did Muay Thai come from? And just so you know your opinion does not mean fact.

There use to be videos on YouTube of muay thai vs Chinese police (Sanda) snd a lot of those muay thai guys did not fare to well.

And I’m guessing there are a lot of MMA, BJJ, JKD, Kyokushin, and many more who would disagree with your opinion of Muay Thai. Not that it isn’t a good martial art, but the “most effective in history” really, i think that’s a bit of an overstatement, or was that a another metaphor

So, how old are you really?, I’m guessing young. Also wondering how much actual training you have, outside of reading a book or seeing a video. Do you know how many folks believe the art the train or the art they follow is the best in the world?.

Don’t need combat sports to know how to train. Or hit hard, I trained sanda at one time, but i guess that wouldn’t count to you. Because it was the version the Chinese police train. We only hit trees and walls without wrapping. And training that way is not magic. It is not quick and it takes time as do many things. Here’s an idea don’t wrap your wrists, don’t wear gloves, find a mook jong and start punching it, it’s pretty much what you find in Wing Chun and in JKD… I’m guessing you hurt yourself rather quickly…. Long time Wing Chun and JKD people don’t (and yes i have trained both) or go find a good size tree, no wrapping, no gloves and start training palm strikes, guessing it won’t be long before you stop. Then we’ll talk, until then, have a nice day

 

[Prince_Alarming74 10]

I do. But I am not going to kill myself if someone thinks that bare knuckle punching the bag hardens them up in some magical way.

My issue specifically was people were arguing that the street somehow determines the outcome. Which I think is a red herring.

I was discussing this with some friends the other day. And we came to the conclusion that bricklaying would be the best exercise.

Not only would it harden your hands. But it would add muscle mass. Which would make your hands heavier and make you hit harder.

Woodcarving is pretty good for the forearms, too. I was doing conservation volunteering with a guy who was making a sculpture for the shelter we built, and he had forearms like popeye's big brother.

I think this thread has run its course, we seem to be going around in circles and things are getting less civil than I would like. See y'all somewhere life affirming. I apologise if I was less than patient or mature earlier.

 

[Fungus]

When fighting, regardless of context, it's also helpful.

I agree comletely with this of course. Amost everything is contextual.

It would not occur to make a random bare knuckle witing towards an hard edgy bony surface no more than i would throw a random bare knuckle strike into a steel beem with full force. I can only imagine if all force goes a finger due to misalignment, or if a bone gets in between two knuckles splicing in between bones. This is easy to imagine.

I totally see the problem even if we do not train bare knuckle strikes to face.

For such situations in self defences are instructors also warns us, that there is high risk of damange. So better would be a arm strike to the head or an elbow to the head; or perhaps a palm strike to the jaw or head to make it spin and save your hand for better purposes.

Indeed if you presume that your hands are always taped or gloved, the context is different, its a different weapon.

But my context is using punches for body shots with maximal power first of all, and in theory some limited precision strikes will non-maximal power that will goto head. But that are the same strikes I test on a beam. For these specific purposes how i'd use my hands in fight, it dont see wrapping necessary. Also wrapping your hands or wrists likely limites theflexibility, todo uraken or palmstrikes? it certainly would not work with boxing gloves.

I love palm strikes, and train them alot also on the bag. In a way I experience palm strike as "safer".

This is not a "my art vs your art" discussion. There are plenty of people in this thread who clearly believe they wouldn't break their hands trying to punch another person in the face.

That's not me, I definitely see how you can break your hand, or fingers damaging your wrist by a hitting bony surfaces with maximum power.

 

[drop bear136 11]

Woodcarving is pretty good for the forearms, too. I was doing conservation volunteering with a guy who was making a sculpture for the shelter we built, and he had forearms like popeye's big brother.

I think this thread has run its course, we seem to be going around in circles and things are getting less civil than I would like. See y'all somewhere life affirming. I apologise if I was less than patient or mature earlier.

I have had worse runarounds with people.

I like that when people have to defend their stance. They have to think about why they have their stance.

 

[drop bear136 11]

Ok. Regarding punching in the streets. And why I would do it.

So yes. I could break my hands. But I could also receive damage to my head like this from his punches.

MMA star opens up on gruelling recovery from career-threatening injury

After four long years away from competition, the rising star is finally set to return to action.

7news-com-au.cdn.ampproject.org

So I want to be able to stop the guy as efficiently and safely as possible. And I don't think palm strikes have the same pep. For most of us.

I have a mate who was hit so hard in training he would get nausea vertigo if he looked down.

He couldn't taste anything.

And this was years.

 

[Prince_Alarming74 10]

There has to be a reason that kids in the playground instinctively punch rather than knifehand each other

 

[Prince_Alarming74 10]

On the issue of work gloves to protect your hands: Imma try it in a bit, it means you can have a longer session before skin starts to break. Open wounds on your knuckles are a pain in the ash. It's my belief that the purpose of a makiwara is not primarily to give you unfortunate and ugly callusses, but rather to learn to whack with great vehemence

 

[drop bear136 11]

This isn't graphic. Just horrifying to think it happens.

TikTok - Make Your Day

 

[Prince_Alarming74 10]

It's not actually a bad solution- after a hundred or so whacks with each side, my knuckles are slightly red and a bit numb rather than raw and bloody. It's worth investing in a pair of good gloves. Screwfix do a nice set of leather gardening gloves that seem to work best. You may need to buy new ones periodically as they have a nasty habit of getting stiff. The only other thing I can think of is possibly hardening your skin with white spirit, but I'm not going to try it and I don't recommend you do.

 

[Prince_Alarming74 10]

Anyone have any experience with dit da jow? I've found a recipe but I've never tried it and I have no idea if it helps or not

how to make homemade dit da jow

How to make da dit jow with Chinese and American herbs

www.daditjao.com

 

[Prince_Alarming74 10]

May I point out, once again, none of these people who claim to hit hard surfaces like makiwara or other "iron fist" stuff is practical.

What is practical? Speed bag, heavy bag, or best, another human's rib cage because what we are talking about, if we're talking about martial arts? Hitting other humans.

See, thing is, the makiwara isn't a 'hard surface'. The very word 'makiwara' means 'wrapped in rice straw'. If it didn't have a great deal of give, it would be of limited value. The idea is that the makiwara bends and the elastic properties of the wood give you a certain amount of feedback- which personally I find harder to judge on a heavy bag. I'm not keen on iron body stuff myself for various reasons, chief of which is the fact that I believe resistance training gives me an 'armour padding' of muscle that is far more resilient than just hitting myself. If we genuinely were whacking walls as a form of training, I'd agree with you- with reservations.

 

[Flying Crane]

I see people are still trying to have a logical conversation here. Good luck with that.

 

[Prince_Alarming74 10]

My cheerfulness is a power far greater than mere defeat and humiliation. Also, if he gets arsey with me again I have various tactics in store.

 

[_Simon_136 167]

Have never wrapped my hands, and had plenty of full contact sparring, some with MMA style gloves, some bare knuckle. Also do probably 85% of my heavy bag work without gloves.

OHMIGOSH I CANT BELIEVE HOW TOUGH I AM!!!

But seriously, I dunno. I've just gotten used to it, and like the feeling and confidence of being able to unleash hard strikes without any gloves. I think there's something to that that helps mentally.

 

[Flying Crane]

We are talking about combat sports like boxing and Muay Thai and even Kyokushin Karate,…

Well, that is what you are talking about. Within that context, wraps and gloves make sense. So knock yourself out.

Some of the rest of us are definitely not talking about combat sports. This thread is in the karate forum, not combat sports forum. Nothing about the OP indicates that the question was posed with competition in mind.

 

[Flying Crane]

May I point out, once again, none of these people who claim to hit hard surfaces like makiwara or other "iron fist" stuff is practical.

May I point out, if you do not wish to do these things, you don’t have to. No one is forcing you.

What is practical? Speed bag, heavy bag, or best, another human's rib cage because what we are talking about, if we're talking about martial arts? Hitting other humans.

Yes these things are ALSO useful.

That’s the thing: there are more than one way to go about this stuff. Depending on your goals and needs and circumstances, some things may be a better choice than others. So you do what is best for you.

But what is best for you may not be what is best for others. They will follow the path that makes sense for them.

You do you. I’ll do me.

This is not a zero-sum game here. That one may be correct does not mean that all others are wrong. They all can be correct, given the proper circumstances. This concept is not difficult to understand.

 

[Badhabits]

Hand injuries, which are the topic of this thread.

Which is also why the discussion went towards tape, wraps, and gloves, and then quite a few people started chiming in with 10,000 years of experience not needing such things.

I understand and appreciate your feedback. At the end of the day, the makiwara is an ancient training device that has been supplanted by much better devices.

All the argument about wrapping and taping and gloves.....and you're still getting hand injuries 3-4 times a week?
Why?