Too Intellectual????

Kung Fu Wang

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Stepping forward or backward can be a foot sweep. :)
Which kind of "foot sweep" are you talking about?

The one that you use your "inner foot edge" to sweep in front of your opponent's "instep"? This is a "circular" foot sweep.


or the one that you use your "instep" to sweep at the back of your opponent's "ankle"? This is a "linear" foot sweep.

 
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Touch Of Death

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Which kind of "foot sweep" are you talking about?

The one that you use your "inner foot edge" to sweep in front of your opponent's "instep"? This is a "circular" foot sweep.


or the one that you use your "instep" to sweep at the back of your opponent's "ankle"? This is a "linear" foot sweep.

I don't have a weird name for you, but it involves taking you opponent on from his side; so, you would front cover to 11:00 or that person's 1:00 with your lead leg, however, you penguin toe that step in the direction you want to go, and then move you body and back leg around, and then simply step forward and through your opponent's leg. (This is called Back Breaker for you kenpo types)
 
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AIKIKENJITSU

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why sit there pondering the workings of the universe. if you want to know what MMA practioners think of kempo why not just ask them. if you want to know why they picked MMA over traditional arts, ask. more likely than not the answer will be similar to Blindsides answer.
my answer....MMA is like a custom chopper, its cool, its power, its real. traditional arts and more so kempo is like a moped. it will get you somwhere but it takes to long and you dont want your friends seeing you on it.

and yes it can be to intellectual. fighting is not an academic persuit. its adrenalin, emotion, violent and primal. you dont care about the 108 combinations and 50+ kata and the universal pattern when some guy is monkey stoping on your head till your green filling oozes out your ears.

There's a purpose and a place for everything.
Sifu
 

Marnetmar

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I'm not really sure how perceiving an art a certain way without having any experience with it is intellectual.
 

Mephisto

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Blindside nailed it. Many tma looks nothing like its trained in action, the tma guys complain about MMA because they are threatened by it. Systems that teach deadly techniques like kenpo are calling mma brutal? This is fighting, everyone should quit comparing and go train, give mma it's credit and move on. IF you want the popularity of mma go into a gym and beat some of their fighters. A lot of styles want the respect that fighters get without actually fighting. They hide behind the street vs sport argument. As has been said, mma is a method to prove effectiveness under pressure, in reality an attacker reacts and resists your defense at random. If the majority of your time is spent training against prescribed attacks with sequences of counters on a compliant opponent, you're not training for reality. Mma is one of the most popular methods to approach the reality of combat. It's not the only way but it's a popular tried and true way to learn how to fight. Quit hating kenpo guys, maybe the problem is you. Your system came from rough and tumble roots, than you tamed it down to spread popularity, but taming it down is never a way to build a solid reputation in a community of fighters.
 

K-man

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Blindside nailed it. Many tma looks nothing like its trained in action, the tma guys complain about MMA because they are threatened by it. Systems that teach deadly techniques like kenpo are calling mma brutal? This is fighting, everyone should quit comparing and go train, give mma it's credit and move on. IF you want the popularity of mma go into a gym and beat some of their fighters. A lot of styles want the respect that fighters get without actually fighting. They hide behind the street vs sport argument. As has been said, mma is a method to prove effectiveness under pressure, in reality an attacker reacts and resists your defense at random. If the majority of your time is spent training against prescribed attacks with sequences of counters on a compliant opponent, you're not training for reality. Mma is one of the most popular methods to approach the reality of combat. It's not the only way but it's a popular tried and true way to learn how to fight. Quit hating kenpo guys, maybe the problem is you. Your system came from rough and tumble roots, than you tamed it down to spread popularity, but taming it down is never a way to build a solid reputation in a community of fighters.
Well for me I have never heard any TMA guys bag MMA, or BJJ for that matter. I have heard many MMA or BJJ guys bagging TMAs. MMA has proven itself to be a popular sport, that's all. If I wanted to compete in the ring I would go and train BJJ to complement my other training and perhaps some MT. But, I have no intention of doing that and I have no problem with MMA being what it is. Why do MMA and BJJ guys always have to tell other people how good their style is? Don't know if it's anything to do with intellectual or more just insecurity.

I'm not threatened by anything I see in other MA training. I might recognise other forms of training to be more appropriate for competition but nothing more. We had a couple of young guys came sauntering in one night telling everyone that they were training jujitsu, by which they meant BJJ, and that they wanted to see what we were doing. I invited them onto the mat and asked them to do what ever took their fancy. Nothing they tried worked and they walked out rather sheepishly. Just because you train MMA or BJJ doesn't suddenly make you invincible.
:asian:
 

Tames D

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I don't know about that... personally, I do not think there's any place for pineapple on pizza.
Some things are just wrong.

I absolutely agree with this. The only thing worse than pineapple on pizza is the 10 year old TKD blackbelt.
 

Paul_D

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I don't really think there that much difference between TMA & MMA. The problems comes (form TMA's perspective) when it comes to presentation.

Imagine you are an 18 year old man that has just started drinking in pubs, and being on the small side you want to learn a few things in case you get into trouble. So you walk into a TMA club, and you see people learning to defend against attacks that you have never seen anyone, anywhere attacked with ever (i.e. oi-tsuki).

Then the next day you go check out an MMA club, and you see people attacking with (and defending against) attacks which look exactly like the violence you see in or around pubs on a weekend.

Which of these arts will look more like real violence, and therefore seem to be the most likely for the person to take up?

The problem comes not with TMA itself, but with the fact the TMA instructors have little or no understanding of the realities of civilian violence, and so they carry on getting their students to attacks each other with unrealistic attacks from unrealistic distances, hence it looks unrealistic.

TMA needs a make over, thre is plenty of information out their if you want to find it, there rally is no excuse in this day an age for any instructor to be sticking with oi-tsuki if they have the words self defence on their website.
 

K-man

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I don't really think there that much difference between TMA & MMA. The problems comes (form TMA's perspective) when it comes to presentation.

Imagine you are an 18 year old man that has just started drinking in pubs, and being on the small side you want to learn a few things in case you get into trouble. So you walk into a TMA club, and you see people learning to defend against attacks that you have never seen anyone, anywhere attacked with ever (i.e. oi-tsuki).

Then the next day you go check out an MMA club, and you see people attacking with (and defending against) attacks which look exactly like the violence you see in or around pubs on a weekend.

Which of these arts will look more like real violence, and therefore seem to be the most likely for the person to take up?

The problem comes not with TMA itself, but with the fact the TMA instructors have little or no understanding of the realities of civilian violence, and so they carry on getting their students to attacks each other with unrealistic attacks from unrealistic distances, hence it looks unrealistic.

TMA needs a make over, thre is plenty of information out their if you want to find it, there rally is no excuse in this day an age for any instructor to be sticking with oi-tsuki if they have the words self defence on their website.
Perhaps you should check out some TMA schools that teach realistic martial art. All of out training is against realistic attacks. As I say to all my guys, "if you can't use anything I teach in a pub brawl I will take it out of the curriculum". Haven't had to take anything out yet.
:asian:
 

Tez3

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I don't really think there that much difference between TMA & MMA. The problems comes (form TMA's perspective) when it comes to presentation.

Imagine you are an 18 year old man that has just started drinking in pubs, and being on the small side you want to learn a few things in case you get into trouble. So you walk into a TMA club, and you see people learning to defend against attacks that you have never seen anyone, anywhere attacked with ever (i.e. oi-tsuki).

Then the next day you go check out an MMA club, and you see people attacking with (and defending against) attacks which look exactly like the violence you see in or around pubs on a weekend.

Which of these arts will look more like real violence, and therefore seem to be the most likely for the person to take up?

The problem comes not with TMA itself, but with the fact the TMA instructors have little or no understanding of the realities of civilian violence, and so they carry on getting their students to attacks each other with unrealistic attacks from unrealistic distances, hence it looks unrealistic.

TMA needs a make over, thre is plenty of information out their if you want to find it, there rally is no excuse in this day an age for any instructor to be sticking with oi-tsuki if they have the words self defence on their website.

'TMA' is a very broad description, it's far too generalised. With as many styles as there is, as many different instructors with extremely different experiences I don't think that it means anything saying that 'TMA' needs to change.
As for walking into an MMA club and seeing the type of violence you see in pubs I'd be very surprised if you did. Violence isn't the point of MMA, winning fights is. Fighters and those training MMA drilling techniques, working on fitness and tactics. In fact if you go into an MMA club the week before a fight you will think they are all softies because they won't be doing very much. Remember too that all the techniques used in MMA come from TMA because that's what MMA is, the use of multiple techniques from martial arts.
some martial arts clubs and instructors are pants, there's no doubt, all martial arts including MMA but you simply cannot generalise in the way you have.

As for oi-tsuki, I'd suggest you don't know how to use it, I've seen it used in MMA. Used properly, it's effective. What do you think it is?
 

Mephisto

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Well for me I have never heard any TMA guys bag MMA, or BJJ for that matter. I have heard many MMA or BJJ guys bagging TMAs. MMA has proven itself to be a popular sport, that's all. If I wanted to compete in the ring I would go and train BJJ to complement my other training and perhaps some MT. But, I have no intention of doing that and I have no problem with MMA being what it is. Why do MMA and BJJ guys always have to tell other people how good their style is? Don't know if it's anything to do with intellectual or more just insecurity.

I'm not threatened by anything I see in other MA training. I might recognise other forms of training to be more appropriate for competition but nothing more. We had a couple of young guys came sauntering in one night telling everyone that they were training jujitsu, by which they meant BJJ, and that they wanted to see what we were doing. I invited them onto the mat and asked them to do what ever took their fancy. Nothing they tried worked and they walked out rather sheepishly. Just because you train MMA or BJJ doesn't suddenly make you invincible.
:asian:

Have you read this thread or any of the other threads here? The TMA crowd (of which I consider myself part of) are rather dismissive and u accepting of mma. I've been to tna schools and heard plenty of mma and style bashing. Haven't the opposite from friends that train mma or at the few schools I've been too. You seem rather dismissive yourself. Plenty of tma guys claim that they are one of the few that kniw how to apply their art to reality and train for real, might be true in some cases but not in all cases. Heck, some tma schools even advertise that they do mma to get more students. I think if you lol at it statistically an mma school will gave better conditioned athletes more equipped to handle a resisting opponent. There are crappy mma schools and good tma schools. But in general if a guy wants to learn how to fight an mma school is the way to go. If we're talking spiritual development it done higher non fighting related purpose sure maybe tma is better.

as for the BJJ guys that came to your school? Iove noticed guys that come and train and mention their previous training are often not very skilled. I've had a guy tell me he "knew aikido, judo, boxing" and maybe a few other arts, he was out if shape and moved clumsily and obviously wasn't skilled in any of the arts he claimed, and he's just one of many "experienced" martial artists I've met. What were the rules of the match you had with these Bjj guys? what specifically did you and they do? Are you willing to share any video of your training? Just asking I'm open to change my way of thinking with evidence and discussion, this post probably sounds way more accusatory and negative than I intend for it to be. I hear stuff like this discussion said all day by my tma friends, I don't argue with them many people think you're a jerk if you share a differing opinion so I keep it to myself. It's nice to be able to share my thoughts here :).
 

Buka

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The only problem with Martial Arts is it's made up of people. We all know what a crazy species we are.

I can only speak for myself. I train with some Kenpo guys, I train with some Bjj guys, I train with some Mma guys, I train with some Uechi guys, I train with some boxers and a whole lot of our own guys, obviously. Not one of them, not a single fricken one ever talks bad about another art, style, or whatever you want to call it. Not ever. I don't think it's because they're great guys or anything, or that they don't know any other stylists. they just don't bother. The only time they have something to say is "Hey, show me how to do that." Back in the 70's there was a lot of Karate bashing, I just don't see it anymore. It would be like making fun of someone's car, or dog, there's no point or reason. The only bashing crap I ever hear is on the internet.

Couple other opinions I have. Kenpo ain't going anywhere. It'll be around a long time, long after we're all dead.
And I lived in Hawaii for ten years. Pineapple on pizza rocks - when you're in the mood for it. :)
 

Xue Sheng

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The problem comes not with TMA itself, but with the fact the TMA instructors have little or no understanding of the realities of civilian violence, and so they carry on getting their students to attacks each other with unrealistic attacks from unrealistic distances, hence it looks unrealistic.

Obviously we have not trained with the same TMA teachers/people.
 

Flying Crane

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The major difference between the TMA and MMA is in

- TMA, people try to map form into applications.
- MMA, people try to map application back into drills.

In one thread discussion that people argue whether "foot sweep" exist in the WC system or not. That's the TMA way of thinking. Whatever that you do, you are not suppose to violate the principle of your style. A more open minded TMA guy will think that if "foot sweep" works, he would like to train it. If "foot sweep" is not in his forms, he may just add it into his form so the future generation won't have to go through this argument again.

The MMA guy will just put "foot sweep" into his toolbox. Since he doesn't have to be loyal to any particular style, all those discussion will never happen.

TMA such as the Kempo system still have the "style boundary". To me, that's the limitation.
I don't know much about mma, but I completely disagree with these statements about tma.
 

K-man

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Have you read this thread or any of the other threads here? The TMA crowd (of which I consider myself part of) are rather dismissive and u accepting of mma.

Yes I've read the posts in this thread, and in the six years I've been on this forum I've read quite a few posts in quite a few threads. ;) Perhaps you could give me an example of someone bagging MMA. There are people you will admit they don't enjoy watching MMA, of which I am one, but that is totally different to "rather dismissive" or unaccepting of MMA.

I've been to tna schools and heard plenty of mma and style bashing. Haven't the opposite from friends that train mma or at the few schools I've been too. You seem rather dismissive yourself. Plenty of tma guys claim that they are one of the few that kniw how to apply their art to reality and train for real, might be true in some cases but not in all cases.
Mmm. We have obviously never trained in the same schools. In thirty years I don't think I have heard any derogatory comments of MMA. I have heard plenty of criticisms of other TMA styles and schools. As to me being dismissive? Perhaps you could post an example. I have fought with many MMA and BJJ guys on this forum over the years and in recent times rather passionately with Hanzou, but not to put their styles down. They were claiming that their training was superior to TMA training, and in some cases I would agree with them. I have seen plenty of less than average TMA training. But I will always claim that the training I provide is realistic and if in the unlikely event it is ever needed, it will see my guys get home safely.

Heck, some tma schools even advertise that they do mma to get more students. I think if you lol at it statistically an mma school will gave better conditioned athletes more equipped to handle a resisting opponent. There are crappy mma schools and good tma schools. But in general if a guy wants to learn how to fight an mma school is the way to go. If we're talking spiritual development it done higher non fighting related purpose sure maybe tma is better.
Again, I have never seen a TMA school advertise MMA without providing MMA training. In fact here, that would constitute false advertising. But saying that, every commercial school that I know provides MMA training. Without it they wouldn't survive, unless they are teaching kids after school which is a different discussion.

Now you have ventured an opinion with no way of backing it up with facts. It depends on what you are calling athletes for starters. I consider an athlete to be a person competing in a form of physical sport. I do not consider myself an athlete. :)

Athletenoun
a person who is proficient in sports and other forms of physical exercise.
"he had the broad-shouldered build of a natural athlete"
synonyms: sportswoman, sportsman, sportsperson; More
BRITISH
a person who takes part in competitive track and field events (athletics).
If you are talking competition at a serious level then I would agree that those guys are going to be fitter than your average martial artists but that includes TKD, Karate, Judo, Boxing, Wrestling etc. It is not confined to MMA. And why would an MMA school be best to handle a resisting opponent? Are you saying that in competitions of the above listed martial sports the competitors are not resisting? Come on! If you are talking MMA competition, of course an MMA school will provide the best training for that competition. You don't need a high IQ to work that on out, but if you are a boxer and competing in Boxing then MMA would be mostly a waste of time. As to MMA the best for teaching you to fight ... garbage. You want to learn to fight, there are places that teach other systems, like Krav, that will do that quicker and probably more effectively than MMA.

As to spiritual development ... I wouldn't know. It's never been part of my training and that includes eight years of Aikido which is an internal style.

as for the BJJ guys that came to your school? Iove noticed guys that come and train and mention their previous training are often not very skilled. I've had a guy tell me he "knew aikido, judo, boxing" and maybe a few other arts, he was out if shape and moved clumsily and obviously wasn't skilled in any of the arts he claimed, and he's just one of many "experienced" martial artists I've met. What were the rules of the match you had with these Bjj guys? what specifically did you and they do? Are you willing to share any video of your training? Just asking I'm open to change my way of thinking with evidence and discussion, this post probably sounds way more accusatory and negative than I intend for it to be. I hear stuff like this discussion said all day by my tma friends, I don't argue with them many people think you're a jerk if you share a differing opinion so I keep it to myself. It's nice to be able to share my thoughts here :).
The guys that came in were big-noters, not representative at all of BJJ. For all I know they may have had just one lesson, but they had trained 'Ju Jitsu'. I just asked then to show me some locks, holds and takedowns of which they couldn't perform one. I didn't say it was a 'match'. I invited them in to show me what they could do. If they had been any good I would have invited them to stay and train. I'm happy to learn from anyone, particularly this skilled in BJJ because in that area my training is limited.

As to me training on video .. no, I don't have any to show you and I'm not interested in posting any. Anyone is welcome to visit if they are truly interested.

As to an example of our training, any video of Taira Bunkai on Youtube such as you will find here is a big part of my Goju training ...
Tairabunkai videos

This is an example of my Aikido training ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fPei-spftzg

My Krav training ... just look up any Krav, but that's not really TMA in the normal sense.
:asian:
 

Flying Crane

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My last post and reality that I've faced got me thinking about the possible decline of Kem/npo (which has been mentioned here on MT). Is it that this generation is too intellectual to appreciate and take part for time periods in the traditional arts? I include Kem/npo in the traditional arts, as it's been so long now that this generation doesn't see the difference anymore. Ours saw it as new and dynamic when the movies and culture hilighted the then traditional.

Maybe that's it? Maybe each generation is influenced by the newer trends which helps shape it? This one is less physically social, and way more digitally social. They live for instant gratification and have been "raised" that way. Maybe, the UFC, MMA craze which has grown over the years gives that shock reality thirsted (conditioned) for. It's straight forward, bang, bang, bang, and choke that cat out- asleep! Knockouts and banging have always been appealing.

So, is this group too intellectual for the traditional arts? Do they see Kem/npo as unrealistic and B.S. because of it's presentation? Can the art be changed to fit the needs of this group or is it doomed and relegated to the fringe and family fun time? Can they, as they get older change over, looking for more substance. Look at the movement today over Bunkai and the noteriety gained.

Thoughts???

to get back to the original topic, I'm an ex-Tracy method kenpo guy. I trained many years ago to shodan, got away from it while training other things, then came back to it with a different teacher, very high in the Tracy lineage, very good teacher and excellent martial artist. I re-trained everything with him, again to Shodan and re-tested with him.

Ultimately I found that the method and the curriculum are very cumbersome. For me, it simply is not a good match. I cannot make use of the material, either as a training method or as real fighting techniques. But that's me. My teacher was excellent, he's been with the Tracys since the early 1960s, and he's very very good. So I believe it comes down to the fact that not everything works as well for everyone, not everything is a good match for everyone, not every training approach or curriculum works equally well for everyone. We all need to find a method that works well for us, that makes sense to us, that we can understand and use effectively. That could be a TMA method or an MMA method or whatever. Just because something works well for one person does not mean it will work equally well for another, so all this back-and-forth over what method works and what sucks and what is a waste of time, well it's just blowing hot air.

And yes, there are a lot of people out there whose training is nonsense and fantasy, that's a given. That doesn't mean the system or the method as a whole is junk. It just means a lot of people don't know what they are doing, don't train effectively, even tho they strap on some high rank. That's a problem with INDIVIDUALS, not a problem with an entire system. I'm sure we can find plenty of examples from any style, who suck. Just like we can find plenty of examples of any style who are quite good. Nobody's got the monopoly on either.

From the discussions on the kenpo sections, I have the personal opinion that people in kenpo tend to over-intellectualize things. They over-analyze and seem to be looking for the perfect mathematical equation to describe the perfect punch and the perfect response to an attack. That turns me off. I don't think its a good way to spend one's time and energies. Not everyone is like that, of course, but I see it enough to recognize that it pops up regularly for some people.

So for me, I have no interest in training any branch of kenpo (speaking of the Mitose-CHow-Parker derived kenpo lineages, I don't know much about other methods that use the term Kenpo to describe what they do). I believe there is a tendency within kenpo to over-intellectualize things, but once again, that depends on the individuals.
 

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