Too Intellectual????

Hand Sword

Grandmaster
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 22, 2004
Messages
6,545
Reaction score
58
Location
In the Void (Where still, this merciless GOD torme
My last post and reality that I've faced got me thinking about the possible decline of Kem/npo (which has been mentioned here on MT). Is it that this generation is too intellectual to appreciate and take part for time periods in the traditional arts? I include Kem/npo in the traditional arts, as it's been so long now that this generation doesn't see the difference anymore. Ours saw it as new and dynamic when the movies and culture hilighted the then traditional.

Maybe that's it? Maybe each generation is influenced by the newer trends which helps shape it? This one is less physically social, and way more digitally social. They live for instant gratification and have been "raised" that way. Maybe, the UFC, MMA craze which has grown over the years gives that shock reality thirsted (conditioned) for. It's straight forward, bang, bang, bang, and choke that cat out- asleep! Knockouts and banging have always been appealing.

So, is this group too intellectual for the traditional arts? Do they see Kem/npo as unrealistic and B.S. because of it's presentation? Can the art be changed to fit the needs of this group or is it doomed and relegated to the fringe and family fun time? Can they, as they get older change over, looking for more substance. Look at the movement today over Bunkai and the noteriety gained.

Thoughts???
 

donnaTKD

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 3, 2014
Messages
1,024
Reaction score
178
Location
llanfairfechan - north wales uk
i think traditional arts are on the wane cos of things like olympic sports like tkd, judo and then the rise of muay thai and mma - these are seen by a lot of people as the new "in" thing - the latest craze if you like.

a few months ago i wanted to study trad tkd and was told over and over again that they only taught sport tkd - people want to go to the olympics and stuff. where i live trad styles are a dying breed unfortunately :(

i think that the trad styles are more easy going to people and when someone sees you practicing it's like they remember that move from a movie and stuff --- also it appears to be less violent and so more people enjoy watching it but it's sport tkd that puts bums on seats in a mcdojo :(
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,355
Reaction score
5,297
MMA is not only not instantly gratifying. But probably one of the least gratifying martial arts.you can do.

Sort of.

People think MMA is like this.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_JIiXPBm_bE

With parties and fights and that it is something cool kids do. Look cool kids play ball sports. Not MMA.

MMA is some sweaty guy sitting on top of you punching you in The face. Day in day out. With no food and no social life. The only gratification you get is doing something truly difficult.
 

tshadowchaser

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Founding Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
13,461
Reaction score
730
Location
Athol, Ma. USA
Perhaps the "SAFE" way that Kenpo is taught today seems more orientated to families and not to those that want the high that comes form the violence of pounding someone.
As with many of the arts that are taught today people do not realize that the violence is controlled for the sake of reaching more people to train in a less violent environment.
I think Kenpo and the other traditional arts will be around for a long time and MMA will be much as boxing is, being looked at as a blood sport,and perhaps a way for the disadvantaged to make some money.
 

Blindside

Grandmaster
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Messages
5,000
Reaction score
629
Location
Kennewick, WA
My last post and reality that I've faced got me thinking about the possible decline of Kem/npo (which has been mentioned here on MT). Is it that this generation is too intellectual to appreciate and take part for time periods in the traditional arts? I include Kem/npo in the traditional arts, as it's been so long now that this generation doesn't see the difference anymore. Ours saw it as new and dynamic when the movies and culture hilighted the then traditional.

Maybe that's it? Maybe each generation is influenced by the newer trends which helps shape it? This one is less physically social, and way more digitally social. They live for instant gratification and have been "raised" that way. Maybe, the UFC, MMA craze which has grown over the years gives that shock reality thirsted (conditioned) for. It's straight forward, bang, bang, bang, and choke that cat out- asleep! Knockouts and banging have always been appealing.

So, is this group too intellectual for the traditional arts? Do they see Kem/npo as unrealistic and B.S. because of it's presentation? Can the art be changed to fit the needs of this group or is it doomed and relegated to the fringe and family fun time? Can they, as they get older change over, looking for more substance. Look at the movement today over Bunkai and the noteriety gained.

Thoughts???

I don't do kenpo anymore. I spent 12 years studying it, had a great time, got to be a full instructor (3rd black) and am quite happy with the skills I learned from it, but I don't practice it anymore.

I didn't swap kenpo for MMA, I now do Kali another traditional art. Why the switch? For me the simplest reason is that I saw a fundamental dichotomy in the presentation of the art, the training techniques don't look anything like what happens in application against a reasonably skilled opponent. Kenpoists generally look like kickboxers when they spar, usually not very good ones. My kenpo instructor is a very very good figher, but it wasn't all the reps of Technique X that got him there. And I will agree that sparring is not real life but neither are stone statue attackers reachng out with a weak push or attacking with a lunge punch. When I train in kali I see a logical progression and relationship between the fundamentals, drills, techniques, and sparring. When I spar with an opponent I look like I train.

Why? Because the training methodology includes resistance from an opponent from an early period. We start with cooperative drilling, then introducing a "technique" and get a bunch of reps in, then the feeder will start trying to counter the technique, and the receiver needs to deal with it. As skill level grows, the drills move from cooperative, to less cooperative, to contested, to full sparring.

For me, the really interesting thing between kali and kenpo, is that there is something like a 90% overlap in physical execution of technique. With a little tweaking I could teach kenpo through the kali training methodology, it wouldn't involve 150 training techniques and the forms would go away and it wouldn't be the kenpo that I learned, but the physical SD skills would be there. The guys wouldn't know the proper routine of stomping a guy into a mudhole like Dance of Death, but I bet they could figure an effective equivalent should the situation require it.

Anyway, it is about efficiency in training for me.
 

hoshin1600

Senior Master
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
2,962
Reaction score
1,402
why sit there pondering the workings of the universe. if you want to know what MMA practioners think of kempo why not just ask them. if you want to know why they picked MMA over traditional arts, ask. more likely than not the answer will be similar to Blindsides answer.
my answer....MMA is like a custom chopper, its cool, its power, its real. traditional arts and more so kempo is like a moped. it will get you somwhere but it takes to long and you dont want your friends seeing you on it.

and yes it can be to intellectual. fighting is not an academic persuit. its adrenalin, emotion, violent and primal. you dont care about the 108 combinations and 50+ kata and the universal pattern when some guy is monkey stoping on your head till your green filling oozes out your ears.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,355
Reaction score
5,297
OK fighting and intellectual pursuits.

You are competing physically and mentally against other people. That is the game of fighting. The monkey stomping only happens after you have worked your way though the other guys defence and tactics and prevented him from getting through yours.

This is a system that is over engendered and over complicated. The more you delve into the tactics and techniques of fighting the more you realise that the system itself has these endless depths of intellectual pursuit.

Eg. Not many techniques.

Here is 51 guard sweeps. Now for self defence you could get away with one guard sweep. I know and practice around three at my level. And get away with that. At the top of their game 51 guard sweeps.

The reason is the other guy is not coming at you after having spent time on his tough face. He has been practising guard sweep defences. So now you need an option when your primary sweep does not work.

There is no end to the learning testing and re learning that occurs in preparation for a competitive art.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cxc6uoaso7Q

Fighting is as complicated as the other guy.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,355
Reaction score
5,297
Maybe it's the other way around. The TMA's are too intellectual for today's instant gratifiers.


OK I think you are missing one factor here. You can be intellectual and physical. This nerd/jock thing is a fairly recent development.



[h=1]“No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.”[/h]
― Socrates
 

Touch Of Death

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
May 6, 2003
Messages
11,610
Reaction score
844
Location
Spokane Valley WA
OK I think you are missing one factor here. You can be intellectual and physical. This nerd/jock thing is a fairly recent development.



“No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.”


― Socrates
It is really how the art gets broken down. We used to teach 154 techs with a common theme, but now we teach the common theme, and let them discover the techs for themselves.
Sean
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,355
Reaction score
5,297
It is really how the art gets broken down. We used to teach 154 techs with a common theme, but now we teach the common theme, and let them discover the techs for themselves.
Sean

The issue with that is a lot of high percentage movements are not necessarily intuitive. A lot of wrestling is like that.
 

donald1

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
3,435
Reaction score
687
I don't know much about kenpo or kempo I've met a kenpo instructor or at least his pants leg said kenpo and he owned his dojo but I do think this is problematic perhaps it's an large percent. But then again a lot of people like the stuff in the movies not the actual effects moves but the ones that look fancy. A lot of kids these days don't want to sit in horse stance and practice strikes they would probably want to do some kind of tiger/dragon spinning side kick.
As for ufc or mma I'm not sure what the craze is. I can't say I understand why but my perspective on those two are low and the only thing I know about them is when I see them on tv and personally it just doesn't seem interesting. I like all about martial arts but when it comes to competition its not really that important to me.
I like traditional it has more to learn from has variety of techniques to learn and a long history to learn about as well
 

hoshin1600

Senior Master
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
2,962
Reaction score
1,402
MMA is more popular than TMA and kenpo because it is self evident. either i can knock you out or i cant. either i can submit you or you submit me. i know for a fact that my techniques work or not because you are REALLY trying to stop me and i am REALLY trying to break your arm. it is real. it may not be real self defense but it is real application of technique. people today are smart enough to smell BS a mile away. the old cop out of ..well i could "do this" and "do this" but im a super duper grand pubar master and you would get hurt. it just isnt going to fly anymore.
gone are the days when a student walks into the dojo and gives the teacher instant unquestioned loyalty, respect and belives everything he says. the internet changed everything. we can look up your phony rank. we can look up who your teachers were and the history of your made up style (not picking on anyone here im just being hypothetical) there are no skeletons in the closet anymore. hidding your poor skills behind some convoluted rank and belt doesnt work. you will be called out, you will be found out and you will be ignored buy the next generation. Bas Rutten said it well.. the difference between the dojo and reality is like walking on a 2x4 when its on the ground its no problem, put that same 2x4 30 stories up in the air and walking across that 2x4 is an entire different story and either you can do it or you cant.
answer... stop the exersize in mental masturbation and work out,, get good, and stop whinning.
"people vote with their feet"
Sam Walton
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,230
Reaction score
2,541
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
The major difference between the TMA and MMA is in

- TMA, people try to map form into applications.
- MMA, people try to map application back into drills.

In one thread discussion that people argue whether "foot sweep" exist in the WC system or not. That's the TMA way of thinking. Whatever that you do, you are not suppose to violate the principle of your style. A more open minded TMA guy will think that if "foot sweep" works, he would like to train it. If "foot sweep" is not in his forms, he may just add it into his form so the future generation won't have to go through this argument again.

The MMA guy will just put "foot sweep" into his toolbox. Since he doesn't have to be loyal to any particular style, all those discussion will never happen.

TMA such as the Kempo system still have the "style boundary". To me, that's the limitation.
 

Touch Of Death

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
May 6, 2003
Messages
11,610
Reaction score
844
Location
Spokane Valley WA
The major difference between the TMA and MMA is in

- TMA, people try to map form into applications.
- MMA, people try to map application back into drills.

In one thread discussion that people argue whether "foot sweep" exist in the WC forms or not. That's the TMA way of thinking. Whatever that you do, you are not suppose to violate the principle of your style. A more open minded TMA guy will think that if "foot sweep" works, he would like to train it. If "foot sweep" is not in his forms, he may just add it into his form so the future generation won't have to go through this argument again.

The MMA guy will just put "foot sweep" into his toolbox. Since he doesn't have to be loyal to any particular style, all those discussion will never happen.

TMA such as the Kempo system still have the "style boundary". To me, that's the limitation.
Stepping forward or backward can be a foot sweep. :)
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,355
Reaction score
5,297
Stepping forward or backward can be a foot sweep. :)

He is right in the general principle though. The moves are drilled in the way they are used with resistance. So as a movement changes from form to application. Instead of the form being right the application is right.

So this is how ippon seoi nage looks.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DU1MeWp3D9A

Here is how it looks resisted.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QB5HTDDg6cQ

The difference is that the resisted version is drilled.
 

MattofSilat

Orange Belt
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
92
Reaction score
9
Location
Guernsey, Channel Islands
You could say that. Or too lazy.

We can't be bothered with principles like honor or discipline, just get through the day and sit on your *** is the life of many.

That life sure as hell ain't for me. Not to say I don't love Rock Jumping or Scuba Diving, I don't like sitting on my *** for the sake of it.
 

MattofSilat

Orange Belt
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
92
Reaction score
9
Location
Guernsey, Channel Islands
I consider myself to be quite loyal, but that sure as hell does not lead to limitations. If I think my style lacks something, I'll add what I think it lacks. That is how evolution occurs. Too many people believe that honor means change cannot occur.
 
Top