to condition the knuckles or not

[Andy Moynihan]

I understand your point, however I think perhaps you and I are approaching the situation from different angles.

First, it sounds from the tone of your post, and I could certainly be wrong, that you have an occupation which requires you to occasionally "go into a situation which might turn out sticky."

Most cops do.

As far as gloves go, It doesn't much matter to me as I usually don't strike with my knuckles anyway.

 

[Drac]

I understand your point, however I think perhaps you and I are approaching the situation from different angles.

First, it sounds from the tone of your post, and I could certainly be wrong, that you have an occupation which requires you to occasionally "go into a situation which might turn out sticky."Rob

Most cops do. .

Yep..

 

[Tez3]

Striking with the knuckles is a bit risky for a number of reasons, police will always look at your knuckles when an altercation has taken place, medics will too if you have to have medical treatment and will report damaged knuckles to the police. Another reason I wear gloves lol!
As has been previously pointed out, 'conditioning' your knuckles will lead to damage that is out of proportion to any SD you may have to do.
I would actually train with the heaviest gloves you can get hold of, we use 16oz boxing gloves plus weights, this means when you have to strike bareknuckled your hands with be faster than if you'd trained without gloves. You will focus better with heavier hands plus you don't have to worry about not hitting properly. What you train there will cerainly carry over when you don't have gloves on. If you don't intend to get involved in any disturbances, it's simply not worth ruining your hands on the off chance you may need 'toughened' knuckles.

 

[Drac]

tez raises an interesting point. i think i'll just invest in a good pair of sap gloves.

jf

Sap gloves are GREAT..The problem arises from the fact that I dont always have mine on as they are a beetch to write with...

 

[Tez3]

Sap gloves are GREAT..The problem arises from the fact that I dont always have mine on as they are a beetch to write with...

Ain't that the truth!

 

[Drac]

Sap gloves are GREAT..The problem arises from the fact that I dont always have mine on as they are a beetch to write with...

Ain't that the truth!

I know some officers that will wear those real expensive pat down gloves for the entire shift, even in Summer..I used to wear calf skin gloves until I busted this nasty stinking wino and had to pat him down prior to transport..I dont think he bathed in about 3 months..I wound up throwing them away...

 

[punisher73]

This is true, however they condition their bodies through falling on mats. What some people like to do as conditioning is more like smashing your head into the pavement to "condition" against being thrown on your head on "the street."

Conditioning should be strengthening muscles, imroving technique, etc. Not damaging joints so they "rebuild stronger", not if you want to use your hands into old age anyways. Some impact is good, too much will do more harm then good in the long run though.

Agreed, proper conditioning will NOT hurt your hands and cause arthritis. Even in the "old schools" that rely heavily on makiwara, they would build up to that over a couple of years of knuckle pushups to strengthen the hand/wrist to be able to punch the makiwara properly. If you are breaking open your knuckles or hitting until they bruise you are NOT using the makiwara properly.

Tez3 wrote:

As has been previously pointed out, 'conditioning' your knuckles will lead to damage that is out of proportion to any SD you may have to do.
I would actually train with the heaviest gloves you can get hold of, we use 16oz boxing gloves plus weights, this means when you have to strike bareknuckled your hands with be faster than if you'd trained without gloves. You will focus better with heavier hands plus you don't have to worry about not hitting properly. What you train there will cerainly carry over when you don't have gloves on. If you don't intend to get involved in any disturbances, it's simply not worth ruining your hands on the off chance you may need 'toughened' knuckles.

Again, PROPER conditioning will do nothing to hurt your hands or damage them long term (I will have to find the medical studies that concluded that there is no higher risk of arthritis from proper makiwara training). It is people who do NOT do it properly or would have developed arthritis anyways in their older years.

Also, punching with a weight is a very old training tool used in okinawan karate as a part of their conditioning program. It was a big part in Goju Ryu's hoju undo (also spelled "hojo"). Punching was done with a ishi-sashi, which would be very similiar to a modern day kettlebell.

 

[Thesemindz]

Striking with the knuckles is a bit risky for a number of reasons, police will always look at your knuckles when an altercation has taken place, medics will too if you have to have medical treatment and will report damaged knuckles to the police. Another reason I wear gloves lol!
As has been previously pointed out, 'conditioning' your knuckles will lead to damage that is out of proportion to any SD you may have to do.
I would actually train with the heaviest gloves you can get hold of, we use 16oz boxing gloves plus weights, this means when you have to strike bareknuckled your hands with be faster than if you'd trained without gloves. You will focus better with heavier hands plus you don't have to worry about not hitting properly. What you train there will cerainly carry over when you don't have gloves on. If you don't intend to get involved in any disturbances, it's simply not worth ruining your hands on the off chance you may need 'toughened' knuckles.

I agree that using knuckle strikes has some inherent risk. Besides what you mentioned about the obvious evidence that you've been in an altercation, if you split your knuckles and get bacteria in the wound, when you open your hand that bacteria will be drawn deeper into the muscle tissue around the knuckles, increasing the likelihood of infection. All that aside, I consider them as much a part of my arsenal as handswords and palm strikes.

I think we will simply have to agree to disagree on the second part. I think training with gloves when I don't expect to wear them in a fight is counterproductive. You've said that they allow you to "train wiser" and that "you don't have to worry about hitting properly." That is exactly why I don't wear them. I don't feel that not worrying about hitting properly is training wisely. It's a matter of perspective I suppose.

I don't have any problem with other people using wraps and gloves, I just don't feel they are appropriate for my training. In drills where I wear them to protect my partner I feel they are appropriate, but I feel the best way to protect myself is to improve my form. I was taught to practice all my material FASP not FAST. Form, Accuracy, Speed, then Power. If I'm hurting my wrists, then I've skipped ahead and need to back it down. But that's just my position.


-Rob

 

[Andrew Green]

As long as by Makiwara you mean the bendy board wrapped in padding, and not a solid block that you put up against a solid wall like the big name martial arts suppliers make

Punching with a weight would be a bad idea, unless you are hitting something though. At the end of the punch that momentum will want to go forward and put a lot of strain on your joints.

 

[Tez3]

I agree that using knuckle strikes has some inherent risk. Besides what you mentioned about the obvious evidence that you've been in an altercation, if you split your knuckles and get bacteria in the wound, when you open your hand that bacteria will be drawn deeper into the muscle tissue around the knuckles, increasing the likelihood of infection. All that aside, I consider them as much a part of my arsenal as handswords and palm strikes.

I think we will simply have to agree to disagree on the second part. I think training with gloves when I don't expect to wear them in a fight is counterproductive. You've said that they allow you to "train wiser" and that "you don't have to worry about hitting properly." That is exactly why I don't wear them. I don't feel that not worrying about hitting properly is training wisely. It's a matter of perspective I suppose.

I don't have any problem with other people using wraps and gloves, I just don't feel they are appropriate for my training. In drills where I wear them to protect my partner I feel they are appropriate, but I feel the best way to protect myself is to improve my form. I was taught to practice all my material FASP not FAST. Form, Accuracy, Speed, then Power. If I'm hurting my wrists, then I've skipped ahead and need to back it down. But that's just my position.


-Rob

I think you have misunderstood most of what I'm saying but never mind as long as your happy with your training thats fine.

 

[Tez3]

Agreed, proper conditioning will NOT hurt your hands and cause arthritis. Even in the "old schools" that rely heavily on makiwara, they would build up to that over a couple of years of knuckle pushups to strengthen the hand/wrist to be able to punch the makiwara properly. If you are breaking open your knuckles or hitting until they bruise you are NOT using the makiwara properly.

Tez3 wrote:

Again, PROPER conditioning will do nothing to hurt your hands or damage them long term (I will have to find the medical studies that concluded that there is no higher risk of arthritis from proper makiwara training). It is people who do NOT do it properly or would have developed arthritis anyways in their older years.

Also, punching with a weight is a very old training tool used in okinawan karate as a part of their conditioning program. It was a big part in Goju Ryu's hoju undo (also spelled "hojo"). Punching was done with a ishi-sashi, which would be very similiar to a modern day kettlebell.

If you note I put condintioning in inverted comas because I believe it has to be done properly not the nonsense of just bashing the knuckles hands whatever to kil the nerves so you don't feel pain.

 

[astrobiologist]

Grapplers begin their conditioning by falling/rolling on soft mats. After some time they may start practising on harder surfaces once in a while. Once conditioned, they can roll on sand, or dirt, or even concrete no problem. The same goes for conditioning the body's weapons. I've been striking targets and bags for some time. Now I'm striking the makiwara with my hands (knuckles, palm, finger tips) and the forearm conditioners (in, out, and top of forearm). I also have a canvas bag full of metal shot that I grab and twist at. There is definitely a need for moderation and good technique, but I am all for conditioning the body in this manner.

 

[jks9199]

I know some officers that will wear those real expensive pat down gloves for the entire shift, even in Summer..I used to wear calf skin gloves until I busted this nasty stinking wino and had to pat him down prior to transport..I dont think he bathed in about 3 months..I wound up throwing them away...

When I was in patrol, I could count on going through at least a pair of gloves a year... I learned quick to go cheaper.

Like I said, there are ways to condition your hands that don't leave you a cripple down the road. Things like punching a speed bag full of rice, or just lots of pad training. Other ways involve herbal rubs and the like...

 

[mook jong man]

I have never hurt my wrists while punching in the Wing Chun method apart from very early on when I first started learning . I strike the heavy bag and canvas wall bag with an uncovered vertical fist , palm strike and edge of hand forearm strike

I have hurt my knuckles before by punching on someones skull , but these days I would tend to use palm strikes to the head , and punches to the body , less chance of getting knuckles infected from some ones teeth .

 

[Uchinanchu]

Good point. I know from experience that hand conditioning is long and tedious, but was a very important part of my beginning years. My art of GoJu (hard/soft) would imply that there is a progression over many years. Because of time restraints or boredom some never attain the latter. Once the softer aspects of the art are realized, or in other words, you are old J , you can still enjoy you art, with a renewed out look. Hard to soft, young to old. At this point it is not how hard we hit, but ever more important, where we hit. This should not be a problem because of the many years of proper structure training.
:asian:

Very well said. Many (not all) martial artists today tend to overlook the obvious, when it comes to such training and it's benefits. Even here, in Okinawa, when another fellow karateka meets me for the first time, their initial reaction is to look at my hands and see how callised they are, as if to say, "Well, if you don't have callises, you obviously do not train hard enough". What a ridiculus and outdated notion!
My own sensei emphasizes the makiwara, but the objective is to train and condition the entire punching motion. Learning to strike properly against a resistive but slightly giving target helps to maintain not only alignment, but helps you learn (in the beginning stages) to maintain proper balance, while progressively delivering more and more powerful strikes to the target.
Train smarter, not harder (of course there is a balance of the two), when your hands start to hurt, stop. If you injure yourself, you have to stop makiwara training until you properly heal. If you are always going too hard, and bloodying yourself up, that does not benefit you at all.

My own sensei's hands do not look callised at all, but he can snap a makiwara in half! He used to do it quite often, but got so tired of replacing them, that now he keeps a bag behind one, so it won't break (so easily).

 

[Todd]

I agree with Uchinanchu. The purpose of the training, IIUC, is to train proper posture and movement throughout the entire punch. That starts with correct stance, and includes things such as proper use of the hips, keeping the shoulder down, elbow close to the body, wrist straight, and fist tight. The feedback you get from the makiwara will tell you whether you are punching effectively.