What I learned after 4 months of punching the heavy bag

Flying Crane

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You are welcome to train in any way that you like.

Let me ask you a question: you come here and spend a lot of time complaining about forms and how you dont like them. Ok, you dont have to like them, you dont have to train them. That is your free choice.

So what are you trying to accomplish? What do you think will happen, if you just complain hard enough, about how other people train?
@Alan0354, do you have an answer for this?
 

drop bear

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You use YouTube videos of individuals for your evidence. Isnt that the same? Why not post yourself teaching your higher quality method? Who are your students? What do they look like? You make a lot of assertions about other arts that you dont practice. Thats like talking about dancing when you have never been on the floor.

It isnt about me. And I don't teach. As far as students go we have had some success. Title belts. Golden gloves, wins in multiple disciplines.

The person who does teach is objectively reputable in multiple disciplines. Objectively because he competed at an elite level.

I can tell if a school can teach dancing. Because there is dancing competitions. And it is an objective measure.
 

Alan0354

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So what are you trying to accomplish? What do you think will happen, if you just complain hard enough, about how other people train?
I thought this is a discussion of usefulness of forms, my opinion is not, too much time spent on things that are NOT practical. Of cause there are kicks or something that can be used, BUT, why not just practice those that can be used in real life situation and cut out those that doesn't work?

Nobody said MMA is a brand new, The word Mixed Martial Arts MEAN picking ONLY the useful moves from different styles, put it into practice and use it in the closest to a real fight.

Notice they use WC step front kick to the knee? BECAUSE it WORKS. That does NOT mean WC is good all around. It would be really stupid to waste time on the stick hands in real fight. People move around, how the hell do you "STICK" the opponent's hand to trap his hands? You seriously want to do WC punches in real fight?

People use TKD kicks in MMA, doesn't mean they are going to follow TKD punches where you tuck your elbows below the shoulders and leaving your whole face wide open to be attacked? Are you going to use wide horse stance in a real fight like Karate and TKD, punch like them in real fight?

MMA people find a lot of Muy Thai useful, Muy Thai is the closest to standup real fight, nothing pretty, just practical. Not to be offensive and I don't know the detail, I heard from a friend of mine that was into MA telling me back in the days(60s), they have open fight competitions in Asia every year where different styles not just from China, but the whole Asia get together and fight. He told me Muy Thai really WHOPPED all the Kung fu people. I cannot verify that. BUT looking at how Muy Thai and look at a lot of the Chinese kung fu. I believe it. It's a different dimension.

Muy Thai works, that's why MMA incorporates a lot of Muy Thai into the fight. Correct me if I am wrong, I never heard Muy Thai have forms, just practice individual moves. It's about efficiency, stop wasting time on things that don't work and put the time on things that work.

DO NOT think for a moment I am happy about this. I learned TKD/Kick boxing, my stuffs are way behind, not much better than all the TMA stuffs. BUT JUST BECAUSE I KNOW I AM NO MATCH TO THE NEW MMA DOESN'T MEAN I SHOULD PUT THEM DOWN AND DENY THEIR VALIDITY. Time has change, you either acknowledge and improve or you'll be made obsoleted.

Like I said, talk is cheap, you can make your point by winning some fights in the ring/octagon. Win using stuffs in the form, don't start fighting with boxing hands, TKD/Muy Thai kicks. Prove your style by using all the moves unique to your style. Don't trash talk and quietly learn from MMA and fight like MMA, use your signature stuffs of your style and win some fights.
 

Alan0354

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It isnt about me. And I don't teach. As far as students go we have had some success. Title belts. Golden gloves, wins in multiple disciplines.

The person who does teach is objectively reputable in multiple disciplines. Objectively because he competed at an elite level.

I can tell if a school can teach dancing. Because there is dancing competitions. And it is an objective measure.
There's a saying, talk is cheap.

I watched competitions between different styles in Asia in the 60s before I even learn anything. But I had a lot of exposure to kung fu. I had good idea how different styles look. When I watched the fight on tv, first thing came to my mind was "How come they all fight like the same!!". I impression was it's a dog fight, no style, just punching and kicking each other stupid.

I guess even at the time, they knew what actually worked and what not. You sure cannot tell between each style in the fights.
 

Alan0354

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Most of the time you just say what I want to say. If I call myself socialist, I may call you communist. I though I'm anti-traditional enough. You are just more anti-traditional than me.

Spend all the time on those forms that I have created and forget traditional forms is exactly what I'm doing.

Form:

outer-twist-solo.gif


Application:

outer-twist.gif
I think you and I interpret "form" different. I meant form is in "kata". The kind that going on and on for over a minute. It's a whole sequence of stuffs.

What you show here are all one or two steps stuffs. THESE ARE VERY PRACTICAL AND USEFUL. This is what I have been talking about cut out all the stuffs in the middle, practice ONLY this kind of one step or two step techniques that can be used in real fight.

If you mean this kind of practice, I agree 100%. It's the long form like katas that I am against as there are a lot of useless stuffs.


This is what I don't find useful:

If there is any one or two step technique that is useful, pick it out and just practice on those like what you show. forget all the other "dancing" stuffs that is a total waste of time.

I saw many styles spending so much time doing these kind of katas, it would be so much more effective and better off if they just extract only the part that is useful and practice on that only.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I think you and I interpret "form" different. I meant form is in "kata". The kind that going on and on for over a minute. It's a whole sequence of stuffs.
If I link the following 5 4 moves combo, I will get a 20 moves form.

C1 - front kick, jab, cross, hook.
C2 - side kick, hook, spin back fist, uppercut.
C3 - roundhouse kick, hook, back fist, overhand.
C4 - hook kick, hook, uppercut, hammer fist.
C5 - crescent kick, spin back fist, hook, overhand.

Here is another example.

 
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Alan0354

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If I link the following 5 4 moves combo, I will get a 20 moves form.

C1 - front kick, jab, cross, hook.
C2 - side kick, hook, spin back fist, uppercut.
C3 - roundhouse kick, hook, back fist, overhand.
C4 - hook kick, hook, uppercut, hammer fist.
C5 - crescent kick, spin back fist, hook, overhand.

Here is another example.

This is very different, I can only agree on those from your other post. This, no. You cannot do a form to throw people, you need to practice with a partner, forget the form. SIMPLIFY the moves, make it practical, don't whale the hand in big circles to make it look pretty. You don''t have to make things pretty!!! No, this is NOT what I am talking about.

You study some real fighting? You ever stop and watch how people fight in real fight, or you just think of everything as artistic and pretty, or in slow motion to show it works?

I guess I can see more and more how TMA gone down the pots, still hang onto this kind of stuff instead of studying how people kick butt in real competitions. Take a lesson from Muy Thai, nothing good looking, just kicking butt. I bet they spend a lot more time in running drills with partners, sparring and full contact fights than to doing forms to look pretty. If you want to include grappling, you REALLY REALLY have to study MMA and watch UFC fights. People moved on for 30 years already. Royce Gracie that butt kicked all the CMA had his butt handed to him long time ago. And the guy that kicked his butt had his butt handed to him years ago already. It's a different world. Things are moving in warp speed the last 30 years.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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You cannot do a form to throw people, you need to practice with a partner,
You may confuse about the Chinese wrestling training order.

You use

1. partner drill to develop skill.
2. wrestling/sparring to test skill.
3. equipment/weight to enhance skill.
4. solo drill to polish skill.

1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4

The solo drill polishing is the 4th step in that sequence.

The solo drill = partner drill without partner.

The form (sequence of solo drill) is just like a text book. It's ONLY used for teaching/learning. It's NOT used for training.

Step 1 - partner drill


Step 2 - wrestling/sparring


Step 3 - equipment/weight


Step 4 - solo drill

 
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Alan0354

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You may confuse about the Chinese wrestling training order.

You use

1. partner drill to develop skill.
2. wrestling/sparring to test skill.
3. equipment/weight to enhance skill.
4. solo drill to polish skill.

1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4

The solo drill polishing is the 4th step in that sequence.

The solo drill = partner drill without partner.

The form (sequence of solo drill) is just like a text book. It's ONLY used for teaching/learning. It's NOT used for training.

Step 1 - partner drill


Step 2 - wrestling/sparring


Step 3 - equipment/weight


Step 4 - solo drill

This is just like Judo I learn before.

Those are good, but not put into a form doing solo. You cannot do throws by doing it in the form. In these videos, there's no fancy whiling the hands and all that, just to the point doing the throw. That's good. forget step 4. there are much better ways for step 3. Join the gym, plenty of weights for training strength.

But I just have a feeling we are not talking in the same key here.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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But I just have a feeling we are not talking in the same key here.
We both agree that form should not be used to develop skill. The difference is:

- You believe form is useless.
- I believe form can be used to polish an already developed skill. Also form can be used as text book to record information.
 
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Ivan

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I had to stop hitting the heavy bag hard after 4 months of hitting it without gloves. It turns how that as I got stronger I was able to penetrate the bag more which is good in a sense but bad in terms of conditioning. When I hit the bag now, it wraps around my fist instead of just landing on the knuckles that I'm striking with. The wrap around damages the other knuckles that I don't use when doing linear or hook punches.

The picture below looks good, but take note of how the bag wraps around the fist. This is brutal on the other knuckles. Eventually those knuckles would be conditioned as well but there's now real reason to have conditioned and deformed knuckles. The human body gives much more than a bag does. I still hit the heavy bag, but I don't hit it hard anymore. I also try to punch on the harder spots that are more compact. Hitting the small areas of the bag are just brutal for me when punching my hardest.
View attachment 28535

Now this training tool makes more sense to me and I find myself wanting to punch something that doesn't give as much as the bags are giving.
View attachment 28534

This is one of the strangest things I've experienced in my training.
Hi its awesome to hear that you have improved. Its important to note that punching the bag bare knuckle is quite taxing on the wrists too. Im not sure if you wore wraps or not, but I made the mistake of punching heavy bags without wraps regularly for the 5 years which I focused on boxing, which has led to a bony swelling in one of my wrists (presumably from micro fracture heals) and pain in both of them. Please ensure you wear wraps if you do so again!
 

Flying Crane

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I thought this is a discussion of usefulness of forms, my opinion is not, too much time spent on things that are NOT practical. Of cause there are kicks or something that can be used, BUT, why not just practice those that can be used in real life situation and cut out those that doesn't work?

Nobody said MMA is a brand new, The word Mixed Martial Arts MEAN picking ONLY the useful moves from different styles, put it into practice and use it in the closest to a real fight.

Notice they use WC step front kick to the knee? BECAUSE it WORKS. That does NOT mean WC is good all around. It would be really stupid to waste time on the stick hands in real fight. People move around, how the hell do you "STICK" the opponent's hand to trap his hands? You seriously want to do WC punches in real fight?

People use TKD kicks in MMA, doesn't mean they are going to follow TKD punches where you tuck your elbows below the shoulders and leaving your whole face wide open to be attacked? Are you going to use wide horse stance in a real fight like Karate and TKD, punch like them in real fight?

MMA people find a lot of Muy Thai useful, Muy Thai is the closest to standup real fight, nothing pretty, just practical. Not to be offensive and I don't know the detail, I heard from a friend of mine that was into MA telling me back in the days(60s), they have open fight competitions in Asia every year where different styles not just from China, but the whole Asia get together and fight. He told me Muy Thai really WHOPPED all the Kung fu people. I cannot verify that. BUT looking at how Muy Thai and look at a lot of the Chinese kung fu. I believe it. It's a different dimension.

Muy Thai works, that's why MMA incorporates a lot of Muy Thai into the fight. Correct me if I am wrong, I never heard Muy Thai have forms, just practice individual moves. It's about efficiency, stop wasting time on things that don't work and put the time on things that work.

DO NOT think for a moment I am happy about this. I learned TKD/Kick boxing, my stuffs are way behind, not much better than all the TMA stuffs. BUT JUST BECAUSE I KNOW I AM NO MATCH TO THE NEW MMA DOESN'T MEAN I SHOULD PUT THEM DOWN AND DENY THEIR VALIDITY. Time has change, you either acknowledge and improve or you'll be made obsoleted.

Like I said, talk is cheap, you can make your point by winning some fights in the ring/octagon. Win using stuffs in the form, don't start fighting with boxing hands, TKD/Muy Thai kicks. Prove your style by using all the moves unique to your style. Don't trash talk and quietly learn from MMA and fight like MMA, use your signature stuffs of your style and win some fights.
This was actually a discussion about a members experience with the heavy bag. However, here you are complaining about forms and how other people train. You didnt answer my question, so I ask again: what do you expect to accomplish by coming on here and complaining about how other people train? You are free to train however you want. Why do you care so much that other people train forms? What do you want to see happen?
 
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