TMA Stances compared with snapshots from MMA

[Oily Dragon]

It's not. Which is why Doctors in the US prescribe Tai Chi for seniors with certain mobility issues. Most knee degeneration probably comes from people just tearing up their knees and genetics. Think of the average person who does not exercise. What type of exercise (other than walking) are they doing to condition the knee.

But not for arthritis or other inflammatory joint conditions.

You can't "condition" your knees either. You can strengthen tendons and ligaments to a certain degree by carefully controlling your weight and transitions, but it is perilous and more often then not, you're just better off strengthening the muscles support such tender connective tissues.

 

[Oily Dragon]

If you live long enough then it is likely inevitable. The body does wear out, after all.

People tend to abuse their knees throughout their lives, and that contributes to degeneration. Obesity is widespread in our culture, and that can be hard on the knees. People live sedentary lifestyles, their muscle tone lessens and then they do something active that injures a joint like a knee. Heavy use of the joint in disciplines that involve lots of kicking, especially snap kicking, can contribute, as well as disciplines that include joint manipulations like grappling methods. These are all things that can lead to knee joint degeneration, but are not guaranteed and would also depend on the specific practices and experiences of the individual. I am not convinced that stance practice, when done correctly, is guaranteed to contribute to knee degeneration, at least not more than other activities, and quite possibly less if done carefully and mindfully.

It's a curious thing, martial artists not believing their arts contribute to their physical decay. Rather, they tend to believe they can become superhero strong practicing various techniques. In the old days, they believe it would make them literally immortal.

Unfortunately it's all self delusion. The truth hurts. The more you train in sharp, dynamic movements, the more your body will decline over the course of your lifetime. Especially if you punch and kick things a lot.

That's why diet, above all things, is critical for kung fu. And nobody here, I'm willing to bet, eats a proper kung fu diet.

 

[Flying Crane]

It's a curious thing, martial artists not believing their arts contribute to their physical decay. Rather, they tend to believe they can become superhero strong practicing various techniques. In the old days, they believe it would make them literally immortal.

Unfortunately it's all self delusion. The truth hurts. The more you train in sharp, dynamic movements, the more your body will decline over the course of your lifetime. Especially if you punch and kick things a lot.

That's why diet, above all things, is critical for kung fu. And nobody here, I'm willing to bet, eats a proper kung fu diet.

Would you please point out where I said my training will make me “superhero strong”, as you put it?

Of course a high quality diet is important, and as long as we are going down this road we may as well be up front about the fact that much of what we eat in modern society is low quality. No argument there.

But there is no such thing as a single “proper Kung fu diet.” Don’t be that guy who wants to hold out like he knows the one true secret that nobody else knows, that he got the true training that everybody else missed. It’s a tired act.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can't "condition" your knees either. You can strengthen tendons and ligaments to a certain degree by carefully controlling your weight and transitions, but it is perilous and more often then not, you're just better off strengthening the muscles support such tender connective tissues.

You can condition the knee. Physical therapist are doing just that when they rehab knees. And before you say that all of the things below are about muscle exercises. Keep in mind that the muscles to not work independently of tendons and ligaments.

"The Arthritis Foundation state that exercise may be the most effective way to treat osteoarthritis without surgery, while the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons note that strong and flexible muscles can keep knees healthy and prevent injury.
Knee strengthening exercises do not affect the knee joint directly, but they strengthen the muscles surrounding it. Strong muscles in the legs can help provide support for the knees. This support may alleviate pressure and strain on these joints, which can relieve pain and help a person be more active."
Source: Knee strengthening exercises: 6 types and what to avoid

8 Exercises to Help Your Knees
"Source: Slideshow: Knee Exercises to Help Prevent Injury

Tai chi can also help your muscle strength and balance, says Leigh F. Callahan, PhD, a professor of medicine at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.
She led a study based on a tai chi program run by the Arthritis Foundation. The results: People in the 8-week course improved their ability to balance, and reported less pain, fatigue, and stiffness.
Other research, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, has found that tai chi can be helpful for people who have fibromyalgia, a condition that causes widespread pain (which may include but is not limited to the joints). It's also been shown to aid people with chronic low back pain, as well as those with ankylosing spondylitis, an inflammatory disease of the spine.
Source: Tai Chi for Joint Health

The Strength Exercises Your Knees Need
It turns out, to fix your knees, you have to think outside your knees. People with bad knees should aim to strengthen their hips, Ebner says. Doing so will provide better support for the knees. He recommends the following hip-strengthening exercises.

1. Resistance-Band Side Step

Loop a resistance band either above your knees (least resistance), below your knees (medium resistance), or around your ankles (greatest resistance). Bend knees slightly with your feet hip-width apart.

Step to the side until the band provides resistance, then slide your other foot over to re-create your original stance. Repeat this sidestepping movement for 10 to 15 feet in one direction (or as far as you can), and then cover the same distance in the other direction. Source: The Best and Worst Exercises for Your Knees


Is Squatting Bad for Your Knees?


The short answer: No, especially with proper conditioning of the knees.

Source: Exercises & Solutions for Crunchy, Painful Knees


Knee Conditioning Program
Bow stance:

Horse Stance

Source
Knee Conditioning Program - OrthoInfo - AAOS

 

[JowGaWolf]

But not for arthritis or other inflammatory joint conditions.

When a doctor prescribes Tai Chi, it's usually because of arthritis and other inflammatory joint conditions.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's a curious thing, martial artists not believing their arts contribute to their physical decay. Rather, they tend to believe they can become superhero strong practicing various techniques. In the old days, they believe it would make them literally immortal.

Martial artist are well aware of the dangers that their exercises may cause, which is why we are so big on making students do the exercises the correct way. I would say that Martial Artists are more in tune with the risks of doing something improperly than a lot of coaches from other sports. Just like we've been saying here. If you do the stance training incorrectly then it will mess up your knees. No one has been dismissive of that fact. Mainly because there's a lot of things in Martial Arts that if you don't do it correctly you'll mess yourself up.

1. Do Iron palm training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
2. Do Stance training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
3. Do side kicks incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
4. Do knee rotation warm ups incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up.
5. Do bone conditioning training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
6. Do Breathing conditioning incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
7. Make Dit-Da-Jow with the wrong ingredients or wrong concentration - you'll poison yourself.

The list goes on and on. If anything knowledgeable martial artist are well aware of the dangers along with the benefit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's why diet, above all things, is critical for kung fu. And nobody here, I'm willing to bet, eats a proper kung fu diet.

I've done many years of martial arts and talked to many martial artists and I've never heard of a "proper kung fu diet"

Do you take Kung Fu? Is that something that exists in your kung fu training?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The more you train in sharp, dynamic movements, the more your body will decline over the course of your lifetime. Especially if you punch and kick things a lot.

When you are

- young, you need to know how to "develop" your MA skill/ability.
- old, you need to know how to "maintain" your MA skill/ability.

When you are

- young, you want to punch out fast and pull back fast. You may use fast exhale and fast inhale breathing method.
- old, you want to punch out slow and pull back fast. You use slow exhale and fast inhale method.

The slow punch/kick out is better for your joints.

eats a proper kung fu diet.

Not sure what kind of Kung Fu diet you are talking about.

I have not eaten any meat since 1980 (40 years ago).

- My blood pressure remain 108-70.
- My A1c is 5.6.
- My LDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) is 57 (standard range 80 - 130 mg/dl).

 

[Oily Dragon]

Would you please point out where I said my training will make me “superhero strong”, as you put it?

No, but thanks for asking nicely.

Of course a high quality diet is important, and as long as we are going down this road we may as well be up front about the fact that much of what we eat in modern society is low quality. No argument there.

But there is no such thing as a single “proper Kung fu diet.” Don’t be that guy who wants to hold out like he knows the one true secret that nobody else knows, that he got the true training that everybody else missed. It’s a tired act.

There is a proper kung fu diet, but it's not really a secret. If you don't know what I mean, just ask.

I don't have any secrets, just a commonly natural sense.

 

[Oily Dragon]

You can condition the knee. Physical therapist are doing just that when they rehab knees. And before you say that all of the things below are about muscle exercises. Keep in mind that the muscles to not work independently of tendons and ligaments.

"The Arthritis Foundation state that exercise may be the most effective way to treat osteoarthritis without surgery, while the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons note that strong and flexible muscles can keep knees healthy and prevent injury.
Knee strengthening exercises do not affect the knee joint directly, but they strengthen the muscles surrounding it. Strong muscles in the legs can help provide support for the knees. This support may alleviate pressure and strain on these joints, which can relieve pain and help a person be more active."
Source: Knee strengthening exercises: 6 types and what to avoid

8 Exercises to Help Your Knees
"Source: Slideshow: Knee Exercises to Help Prevent Injury

Tai chi can also help your muscle strength and balance, says Leigh F. Callahan, PhD, a professor of medicine at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.
She led a study based on a tai chi program run by the Arthritis Foundation. The results: People in the 8-week course improved their ability to balance, and reported less pain, fatigue, and stiffness.
Other research, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, has found that tai chi can be helpful for people who have fibromyalgia, a condition that causes widespread pain (which may include but is not limited to the joints). It's also been shown to aid people with chronic low back pain, as well as those with ankylosing spondylitis, an inflammatory disease of the spine.
Source: Tai Chi for Joint Health

The Strength Exercises Your Knees Need
It turns out, to fix your knees, you have to think outside your knees. People with bad knees should aim to strengthen their hips, Ebner says. Doing so will provide better support for the knees. He recommends the following hip-strengthening exercises.

1. Resistance-Band Side Step

Loop a resistance band either above your knees (least resistance), below your knees (medium resistance), or around your ankles (greatest resistance). Bend knees slightly with your feet hip-width apart.

Step to the side until the band provides resistance, then slide your other foot over to re-create your original stance. Repeat this sidestepping movement for 10 to 15 feet in one direction (or as far as you can), and then cover the same distance in the other direction. Source: The Best and Worst Exercises for Your Knees


Is Squatting Bad for Your Knees?


The short answer: No, especially with proper conditioning of the knees.

Source: Exercises & Solutions for Crunchy, Painful Knees


Knee Conditioning Program
Bow stance:
View attachment 22998

Horse Stance
View attachment 22999

Source
Knee Conditioning Program - OrthoInfo - AAOS

This is not "condition the knees" in a martial arts sense. This is physical therapy.

When I use the term "condition" I mean things like Iron Palm. There is no martial "conditioning" of the knees, and I've seen great sifus collapse due to injured knees more than once.

 

[Oily Dragon]

When a doctor prescribes Tai Chi, it's usually because of arthritis and other inflammatory joint conditions.

No doctors should prescribe Tai Chi for arthritis.

If they do, they're ignoring modern science.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Martial artist are well aware of the dangers that their exercises may cause, which is why we are so big on making students do the exercises the correct way. I would say that Martial Artists are more in tune with the risks of doing something improperly than a lot of coaches from other sports. Just like we've been saying here. If you do the stance training incorrectly then it will mess up your knees. No one has been dismissive of that fact. Mainly because there's a lot of things in Martial Arts that if you don't do it correctly you'll mess yourself up.

1. Do Iron palm training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
2. Do Stance training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
3. Do side kicks incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
4. Do knee rotation warm ups incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up.
5. Do bone conditioning training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
6. Do Breathing conditioning incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
7. Make Dit-Da-Jow with the wrong ingredients or wrong concentration - you'll poison yourself.

The list goes on and on. If anything knowledgeable martial artist are well aware of the dangers along with the benefit.

Where you said "dangers", I still claim "inevitability". And the greatest kung fu masters knew and accepted this ultimate truth, and trained accordingly. They have words for it, dealing with the pains of older age, especially among the warring classes.

Some of them even delved well beyond the physical, straight into the inner mind and out again.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I've done many years of martial arts and talked to many martial artists and I've never heard of a "proper kung fu diet"

Do you take Kung Fu? Is that something that exists in your kung fu training?

Odd, you train Jow Ga, and the kung fu diet has long been disseminated among the Five major Southern Families.

It looks like you've missed out, but that's a wonderful blessing because I keep great notes, and my favorite kung fu notes are those devoted to cooking.

How familiar are you with authentic Cantonese cuisine? That's the best place to start when discussing kung fu diets and static stancework.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No doctors should prescribe Tai Chi for arthritis.

If they do, they're ignoring modern science.

Modern science says that there is a benefit which is why more western doctors are prescribing Tai Chi. That's why I added those links so you can read about the research from modern science.

When I use the term "condition" I mean things like Iron Palm. There is no martial "conditioning" of the knees, and I've seen great sifus collapse due to injured knees more than once.

In kung fu we condition our knees with stances not by slamming our knees into hard objects. You have a misconception about what it means to condition the knees. Conditioning the knees in Kung Fu is a gentle process because if it's done incorrectly you'll screw up your knees.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Modern science says that there is a benefit which is why more western doctors are prescribing Tai Chi. That's why I added those links so you can read about the research from modern science.

It doesn't say that. Your links are fine, your conclusion isn't.

Tai Chi for Chronic Pain Conditions: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Randomized Controlled Trials

In kung fu we condition our knees with stances not by slamming our knees into hard objects. You have a misconception about what it means to condition the knees. Conditioning the knees in Kung Fu is a gentle process because if it's done incorrectly you'll screw up your knees.

Nothing about kung fu is gentle. And you are using "incorrectly" as a crutch. That's ok. I don't judge.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Odd, you train Jow Ga, and the kung fu diet has long been disseminated among the Five major Southern Families.

It looks like you've missed out, but that's a wonderful blessing because I keep great notes, and my favorite kung fu notes are those devoted to cooking.

How familiar are you with authentic Cantonese cuisine? That's the best place to start when discussing kung fu diets and static stancework.

My Jow Ga diet is simply eat healthy and stay away from things that aren't healthy. I eat a lot of what dieticians say to eat and sneak a little bit of what I'm not supposed to eat. Like the 4 cookies I just finished eating. As for Authentic Cantonese Cuisine, it's like everything else. Some of it's healthy and some of it isn't. Depending on your genetic make up certain foods are going to be less health for some while others are going to be just fine. I didn't miss out. My wife cooks Authentic Cantonese Cuisine because that's what she grew up with with so I know from experience that some of that is healthy and some of it isn't.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It doesn't say that. Your links are fine, your conclusion isn't.

That's because you have to go beyond just reading the articles. Look at up the studies that are listed in some of those articles. I've already done this in the past and I'm not doing it again just for you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Nothing about kung fu is gentle. And you are using "incorrectly" as a crutch. That's ok. I don't judge.

My Kung Fu training for shadow boxing all starts out like this.

 

[Oily Dragon]

That's because you have to go beyond just reading the articles. Look at up the studies that are listed in some of those articles. I've already done this in the past and I'm not doing it again just for you.

You're ignoring the studies that say Tai Chi for arthritis is bad for you. Do you only like studies that press your point?

 

[Flying Crane]

No, but thanks for asking nicely.

You won’t point it out? Or you cannot, because I never said it...

There is a proper kung fu diet, but it's not really a secret. If you don't know what I mean, just ask.

I don't have any secrets, just a commonly natural sense.

I’m not gonna ask. I’ve seen this game before. You want people to come begging for your wisdom.

So, no.