TIG, testing and contributions to the art.

[puunui]

Im not here to create TKD. Im here to Learn it. I didnt join up to add to it, or subtract from it.

My feelings exactly.

 

[Cyriacus]

From DancingAlone's quote, I wouldn't necessarily say that the Master's Thesis would always "add to the art." It often times is a demonstration of knowledge of the art. Illustrating not only years of devoted practice, but the knowledge and wisdom that should be the result of such training. At least that has been my experience in my association. Similar to a Master's thesis for a M.S. or M.A. degree shows depth of knowledge. You may be "adding to the art," in some fashion since those who attend the test or read the thesis may gain a deeper knowledge of the art, but I wouldn't say that its really inventing something new. I would say it would be more accurately described as expanding the knowledge base.

In a round about way, that also adds to my point. Were not about Theory, but rather the ability to Use what You have been Taught. This isnt about being Educated or having Wisdom conveyed onto You - Its about Learning a Skill, in place of better words.

That said, Thesis wasnt His only Example, Good Sir.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

In a round about way, that also adds to my point. Were not about Theory, but rather the ability to Use what You have been Taught. This isnt about being Educated or having Wisdom conveyed onto You - Its about Learning a Skill, in place of better words.

That said, Thesis wasnt His only Example, Good Sir.

I agree, to a point. From a thesis perspective, IMO, it is more about demonstrating knowledge and wisdom gained. However, hearing/reading such things can give you a perspective that can help you in your journey. The Zen approach to teaching is the main way my instructor used to convey knowledge; give you enough knowledge for you to come to the answer yourself. IMO, it is the best way to teach. HOWEVER, I gleaned a great deal over the years by hearing my seniors defend their thesis at promotion examinations. From that perspective I see this very much as contributing to the art, by cultivating/conveying a better understanding of the art to the younger generation. The thesis is not about technique, but about specific aspects of Taekwondo; Focus, Discipline, Teaching, Philosophy, Psychology, etc.. . This is where it goes beyond learning a "Skill" and goes to learning how to better convey said skill and cultivate a better martial artist.

Yes, you are right about the point that the Thesis was not his only example, but the thesis aspect is what I was focusing on. Enhancing or adding to the "skill, technique, culture, and tradition" of a martial art is something that is more of a debatable issue depending on your perspective and upbringing. I do not wish to throw out or change the tradition, technique, or culture in which I was raised in Taekwondo, and yet , in some ways, others have; the Pioneers have and so have countless others, prior and since. I practice an older curriculum, prior to the formation of the KKW. I would not dare say that it was wrong of them to do so, as I believe that anyone of a certain rank and experience has leeway to interpret the art.

From changing of uniforms to poomsae to the evolution of the acrobatic kicking techniques of TKD, where would modern TKD be without "adding to the art?" I think that anyone that "joined TKD to add to it or subtract to it," joined for misguided reasons and probably joined with a cup that is not empty enough. However, at some point those with the experience that are talented, influential, and/or gifted will add or change the art. I do not consider myself one of these people, but I certainly do not disparage those who have.

In relation to the OP, I don't think that this is the kind of "contribution to the art" that should be a requirement of high dan rank.

 

[Cyriacus]

I agree, to a point. From a thesis perspective, IMO, it is more about demonstrating knowledge and wisdom gained. However, hearing/reading such things can give you a perspective that can help you in your journey. The Zen approach to teaching is the main way my instructor used to convey knowledge; give you enough knowledge for you to come to the answer yourself.

Aha.

IMO, it is the best way to teach. HOWEVER, I gleaned a great deal over the years by hearing my seniors defend their thesis at promotion examinations. From that perspective I see this very much as contributing to the art, by cultivating/conveying a better understanding of the art to the younger generation.

Im sure thats nice. But again - Its still just Theory.

The thesis is not about technique, but about specific aspects of Taekwondo; Focus, Discipline, Teaching, Philosophy, Psychology, etc.. . This is where it goes beyond learning a "Skill" and goes to learning how to better convey said skill and cultivate a better martial artist.

Focus is taught as easily by Pressure. Discipline by use of Discipline. Teaching by Teaching. Philosophy takes a back seat for us. Psychology is not an aspect. Now, that said, can these things make a better Martial Artists in terms of the Practitioner as a person? Yes. Will it make them better at Striking? Probably not for most.

Yes, you are right about the point that the Thesis was not his only example, but the thesis aspect is what I was focusing on. Enhancing or adding to the "skill, technique, culture, and tradition" of a martial art is something that is more of a debatable issue depending on your perspective and upbringing.

I disagree - I think its subjective. I disagree with doing it, but if I were required to, Id do it, and do it just fine. The real question is, do the Students choose to do these Thesis, or are they made to in order to progress? Are they learning to progress and for the sake of learning, or because they want to?

I do not wish to throw out or change the tradition, technique, or culture in which I was raised in Taekwondo, and yet , in some ways, others have; the Pioneers have and so have countless others, prior and since. I practice an older curriculum, prior to the formation of the KKW. I would not dare say that it was wrong of them to do so, as I believe that anyone of a certain rank and experience has leeway to interpret the art.

I Agree. But thats for You to do Personally. Unless the Art is trying to force an interpretation upon You.

From changing of uniforms to poomsae to the evolution of the acrobatic kicking techniques of TKD, where would modern TKD be without "adding to the art?"

That said, We dont do anything Acrobatic. And have never changed our Uniforms. But thats more about Organisations than anything else.

I think that anyone that "joined TKD to add to it or subtract to it," joined for misguided reasons and probably joined with a cup that is not empty enough. However, at some point those with the experience that are talented, influential, and/or gifted will add or change the art. I do not consider myself one of these people, but I certainly do not disparage those who have.

Aha - Changes can be made. But I believe they have to be very, very monitored. Say You decided that Dodging > Blocking. But theres a Student who simply cant *think* Blocking, but has to learn Dodging, and ends up inferior as a result.

In relation to the OP, I don't think that this is the kind of "contribution to the art" that should be a requirement of high dan rank.

I agree.

*nods

 

[Earl Weiss]

1. 
   for 5th dan you would have to have your own school, and at least one student to BB
   for 6th dan the above and 5 students to BB
   for 7th dan the above and have a students you promoted to BB have a student promoted to bb under them, so two generations
   for 8th 3 generations
   for 9th 4 generations

1. 
   
   I have heard of these types of systems, and have always thought it poses some problems. I.e. Succesful guy large school ultimately has ten 4th Dans. For them to reach 5th Dan they must all go into competition with him or relocate far away to open a school that doesn't compete.
   
   At 7th Dan you basicaly must have created 2 levels of competition.
   
   What about succesful guy, large school and class load who has 4th Dan(s) share the teaching load. They would never be eligible for 5th Dan or he would be forced to give up valuable help?
   

 

[SahBumNimRush]

"Focus is taught as easily by Pressure. Discipline by use of Discipline. Teaching by Teaching."

If it were only that easy, then anyone with a few years of experience would be a great teacher and have the ability to produce great students. Alas, this is not the case. Understanding the psychology of teaching is important, in order to bring out the best in your student. What if the student buckles under the pressure? How does this facilitate focus? Understanding how to give the right amount of pressure to foster focus is something that without guidance could take decades to become proficient at if you are not a natural teacher.


"Philosophy takes a back seat for us. Psychology is not an aspect. Now, that said, can these things make a better Martial Artists in terms of the Practitioner as a person? Yes. Will it make them better at Striking? Probably not for most."

I think we have different ideas of how encompassing Taekwondo (or perhaps martial arts in general) is.

"That said, We dont do anything Acrobatic. And have never changed our Uniforms. But thats more about Organisations than anything else."

Nor do we, but I use this as an example.
"Aha - Changes can be made. But I believe they have to be very, very monitored. Say You decided that Dodging > Blocking. But theres a Student who simply cant *think* Blocking, but has to learn Dodging, and ends up inferior as a result."

We are in total agreement. I have seen this from a particular instructor in my own association. He changed a few techniques to suite his taste and physical limitations, and passed these adaptations down to his students. The students believe that this is the proper way to execute the technique, and unfortunately the adaptations that were made make the techs inferior and much less effective.

 

[sfs982000]

We have many types of TKD represented here on the board. By 'types' I mean different organizational representation as well as independent, sport-focused as well as SD-focused etc. I thought it may be interesting to get a picture of the similarites and differences among them.

1. In reference to TIG (time-in-grade), is there an average and/or minimum time to be eligible for testing for a first Dan?
2. Once first Dan has been reached, is there a minimum TIG in place to proceed to the second, and then the third etc?
3. Is a physical skills test required for each and every Dan grade? If not, at what rank does a physical test cease?
4. If a physical skills test isn't required for a certain grade (and up), does anything replace it other than TIG?
5. What are considered acceptable contributions to your art, if used as the basis of a promotion.

Thank you.

1. In our school there are minimum number of classes one must attend prior to being approved for testing at the color belt ranks, the number of classes one must attend increases for each rank. Myself I've been studying at my school for 3 and a half years now and will be testing for my brown belt this coming weekend. If everything goes as planned I should hopefully test for my first Dan in approximately 1 years or so (more like a year and a half).
2. I believe that once one makes 1st Dan the TIG changes to 1 year to test for 2nd Dan, 2 years to test for 3rd Dan, etc....
3. All black belts and black belt canidates have to pass a fitness test prior to being eligible to test
4. The physical test is required for all ranks and I believe that for 5th Dan and up owning your own school and number of students comes into play as well (not a hundred percent sure on that).
5. I don't know of any other contributions that are required for promotion to higher Dan ranks other than owning your own school(s) and number of students.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We have many types of TKD represented here on the board. By 'types' I mean different organizational representation as well as independent, sport-focused as well as SD-focused etc. I thought it may be interesting to get a picture of the similarites and differences among them.

1. In reference to TIG (time-in-grade), is there an average and/or minimum time to be eligible for testing for a first Dan?
2. Once first Dan has been reached, is there a minimum TIG in place to proceed to the second, and then the third etc?
3. Is a physical skills test required for each and every Dan grade? If not, at what rank does a physical test cease?
4. If a physical skills test isn't required for a certain grade (and up), does anything replace it other than TIG?
5. What are considered acceptable contributions to your art, if used as the basis of a promotion.

Thank you.

KKW/WTF

1. No minimum time is set for geub grades and the KKW does not track them.
2. One year per current dan grade minimum before being eligible to test for the next.
3. To my knowledge, there is a physical test for every grade through ninth dan. I'm not sure about tenth, but I think that there is one for that as well.
4. If I am correct on 3, then this one does not apply to the KKW. If tenth dan does not require a physical test, then it ceases at ninth.
5. I know that quantity of students promoted to dan grades and opening of schools are considered contributions, but beyond that, I do not know of any specifics.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

1. In reference to TIG (time-in-grade), is there an average and/or minimum time to be eligible for testing for a first Dan?
2. Once first Dan has been reached, is there a minimum TIG in place to proceed to the second, and then the third etc?
3. Is a physical skills test required for each and every Dan grade? If not, at what rank does a physical test cease?
4. If a physical skills test isn't required for a certain grade (and up), does anything replace it other than TIG?
5. What are considered acceptable contributions to your art, if used as the basis of a promotion.

1. Within the IKSDA the TIG to first Dan is left up to the individual dojang. Speaking only for myself, I no longer have a set minimum and leave it solely to the abilities of the student. This is stated up front and is determined upon their level of dedication, training time, demonstration of their abilities and prior experience.

2. The TIG is equal to the Dan rank they currently possess i.e. 1st to 2nd = 1 year. 2nd to 3rd = 2 years. 3rd and beyond is a minimum of three years.

3. Currently there is not a specific test beyond the 1st Dan. What I mean is that we do not set a specific date and then test their abilities. Rather, each and every class is a test of sorts. They assist in teaching, occassionally if I see they have the ability to teach something specific to my satisfaction I allow them to do so and evaluate them in the process. Continued education and continued regular training play a part in the equation. To me, a promotion to the next level begins about about three seconds after their current promotion and continues on a daily training basis. After the minimum IKSDA mandated time, they've either earned the next level or they haven't. Speaking for my dojang and no other.

4. See above. In addition, did they attend the annual IKSDA seminar? What have they done with their training since the last promotion?

5. See above.

 

[puunui]

I have heard of these types of systems, and have always thought it poses some problems. I.e. Succesful guy large school ultimately has ten 4th Dans. For them to reach 5th Dan they must all go into competition with him or relocate far away to open a school that doesn't compete.
At 7th Dan you basicaly must have created 2 levels of competition.

I have three generations, a student who has a student who promotes his students to black belt. When students open dojang I don't put any restrictions on where they open.

What about succesful guy, large school and class load who has 4th Dan(s) share the teaching load. They would never be eligible for 5th Dan or he would be forced to give up valuable help?

To me, 4th through 6th Dan are teaching dans. You go open your own dojang and teach your own students in your own way. If a student is unable or unwilling to do that, then they are missing the lessons that come with 4th-6th Dan rank. Teaching at someone else's dojang is not the same thing as teaching at your own school.

But there are always exceptions, for exceptional people.

 

[Twin Fist]

in my world, and this is just my world, in my world, people top out.

if you never teach, not even in your own school? you top out at 2nd dan

if you never open your own school? you top out at 4th

there is no shame in topping out at 4th dan

the ranks of 5th and above are reserved for those people that spread the art by teaching, and do so in thier own schools.

if someone doesnt want to do that, thats cool, but they dont get to be a 5th dan.

like i said, just my world, and i dont care if anyone agrees with me or not. This is how i think it should be.

I have heard of these types of systems, and have always thought it poses some problems. I.e. Succesful guy large school ultimately has ten 4th Dans. For them to reach 5th Dan they must all go into competition with him or relocate far away to open a school that doesn't compete.

At 7th Dan you basicaly must have created 2 levels of competition.

What about succesful guy, large school and class load who has 4th Dan(s) share the teaching load. They would never be eligible for 5th Dan or he would be forced to give up valuable help?
[/LIST]

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If I remember correctly, Kang Rhee had some sort of set up like that. Don't quote me on the particulars but in order to reach say 4th Dan you had to have a certain amount of students at the BB level. As you went beyond 4th that number increased and at some point you had to have made a certain number of masters under you. I remember seeing something on this about 10 years ago or so, give or take. Someone had one of his promotional requirement cards that was in his WBBB.

 

[miguksaram]

1. In reference to TIG (time-in-grade), is there an average and/or minimum time to be eligible for testing for a first Dan?
2. Once first Dan has been reached, is there a minimum TIG in place to proceed to the second, and then the third etc?
3. Is a physical skills test required for each and every Dan grade? If not, at what rank does a physical test cease?
4. If a physical skills test isn't required for a certain grade (and up), does anything replace it other than TIG?
5. What are considered acceptable contributions to your art, if used as the basis of a promotion.

Thank you.

1) At our school there is no minimum time. If you know and can perform it, then so be it. However, the average time is about 5 years to reach a black belt.
2) We follow a basic TIG process...1st - 2nd dan (2 years TIG). 2nd - 3rd dan (3 Years TIG), and so forth.
3) We have only one test for a black belt and that is at 1st dan. It is also a hellish test that will last about 6-8 hours non stop (except for a water break here and there).
4) After 1st dan test you promoted via TIG and contributions to the art. In other words if you got 1st dan and you occasionally show up every now and again (due laziness not outside factors such as injuries, or work), do not expect to be promoted to a 2nd dan anytime soon. Sensei will base your promotion on what you have given back to the art, teaching, helping out the school, the organization, etc.
5) Teaching others, helping out at events, opening your own school are ways to show dedication to the art. Sensei is not someone who feels you have to lend your whole life to the school or art. He understands that people have bills to pay and families to raise. If he sees you are doing your best to make an effort in practicing and teaching or helping, he considers that as giving back.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Just to be clear, my comments about students competing with you was not meant to imply that you must restrict them from competing. Although I do know of some instructors who now have students sign non compete clauses, but that is a different topic.
My point was more along the line of forcing them to compete.

In our area the MA business is very saturated. Often their are retail schools every mile or so and then their are Park District and YMCA clubs as well as those at health clubs and after scholl programs. Not much fertile ground available and the prospect of having to travel loong distances to teach is a non starter.

The pie can only be cut into so many pieces.

 

[Twin Fist]

thats true.

but too bad. not everyone gets to be a 5th dan.

 

[Earl Weiss]

thats true.

but too bad. not everyone gets to be a 5th dan.

We've agreed to disagree before . I guess this is another time. I have always enjoyed the Martial Arts Journey as being part of my development. While I enjoy teaching, I enjoy training more. To an extent, the time I spend teaching lessons the time and energy i have for learning and training. what I do or have done in the Martial Arts has always depended on me and no one else. Being a teacher is like being a parent in that we do the best we can, but all sorts of external forces can serve to thwart our best efforts. Teaching provides invaluable experience and knowledge. (I have been teaching classes on a pretty regular schedule since 1974)

It is sad to think that those forces acting on our students or our students students would affect someone's rank progression or even the rank progression of their students. If your is limited by the number of generations under you who actualy open their own school would you need to have your students who continue to train under you, at your school promoted to your rank, or would they have to stop at a rank below yours?

 

[Earl Weiss]

in my world, and this is just my world, in my world, people top out.

if you never teach, not even in your own school? you top out at 2nd dan

if you never open your own school? you top out at 4th

there is no shame in topping out at 4th dan

the ranks of 5th and above are reserved for those people that spread the art by teaching, and do so in thier own schools.

if someone doesnt want to do that, thats cool, but they dont get to be a 5th dan.

like i said, just my world, and i dont care if anyone agrees with me or not. This is how i think it should be.

Does your system syllabus contain any material for Third Dan which is not part of earlier rank material.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

in my world, and this is just my world, in my world, people top out.

if you never teach, not even in your own school? you top out at 2nd dan

if you never open your own school? you top out at 4th

there is no shame in topping out at 4th dan

the ranks of 5th and above are reserved for those people that spread the art by teaching, and do so in thier own schools.

if someone doesnt want to do that, thats cool, but they dont get to be a 5th dan.

like i said, just my world, and i dont care if anyone agrees with me or not. This is how i think it should be.

It is sad to think that those forces acting on our students or our students students would affect someone's rank progression or even the rank progression of their students. If your is limited by the number of generations under you who actualy open their own school would you need to have your students who continue to train under you, at your school promoted to your rank, or would they have to stop at a rank below yours?

Looking at this much more closely, it is actually a very deep consideration. I'd like to take a look at this from strictly a 'third part' position for a moment. Looking at TF's example of topping out at 2nd Dan if you never teach (even within the school), this actually isn't a bad idea at all. If you're not teaching, why would you need to go any higher (and taking it a step further, why would you need a 2nd? Why wouldn't 1st be enough)? There is no one under you that is dependent upon your rank. So that makes the rank more personal. And if the person only wants to be a serious student, why worry about the number of stripes on a belt? I look at the other extreme which is people of very high rank, yet don't have a school and never did. It is clear that some of them really don't have a grasp of their art and simply put in TIG and/or knew someone that got them up the ladder. But for what reason? Why have a bunch of Chiefs running around if they have no Indians? I know that some would say that the individual needs motivation in order to continue. But then that would indicate that the training itself isn't the primary reason for training...wouldn't it?

Again, looking at his example, 4th if you do teach and 5th and up if you have your own school. If ego isn't a part of the equation, and training is the primary concern, then teaching is the next step in that natural progression and should be rewarded in some fashion.

In the past your were either a teacher or a student. If you were a 'senior' student you might get to assist the teacher, which in turn prepares you to become a teacher on your own. I'm curious, if a law were suddenly passed (hypothetically) that outlawed the Dan/Kyu/Gup system (no belts, no stripes, no titles) and you could only be a teacher or student (and teacher meant you had a school and actually taught)....how many would fade away from the arts altogether?

Now THAT is a thought...

 

[Twin Fist]

the only thing you learn after 2nd is kata, everything else is self created. All the kicks, strikes, locks, throws, etc, other than kata are learned by 2nd dan. Thats the reason i said if you dont teach, you stop there.

Does your system syllabus contain any material for Third Dan which is not part of earlier rank material.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Looking at this much more closely, it is actually a very deep consideration. I'd like to take a look at this from strictly a 'third part' position for a moment. Looking at TF's example of topping out at 2nd Dan if you never teach (even within the school), this actually isn't a bad idea at all. If you're not teaching, why would you need to go any higher (and taking it a step further, why would you need a 2nd?

If the system has material past second dan that is arranged by dan grade, you'd have a reason to go higher. That is the case in Kukkiwon taekwondo.

Also, at least in the two schools where I have trained, in hapkido, weapons are introduced, starting with the dan bong (short stick; tanbo) and jang bong (bo). Ildan is also, at both schools, where knife defenses and defenses against multiple opponents were introduced.

So I guess it really depends upon how the curriculum is structured.

In the past your were either a teacher or a student. If you were a 'senior' student you might get to assist the teacher, which in turn prepares you to become a teacher on your own. I'm curious, if a law were suddenly passed (hypothetically) that outlawed the Dan/Kyu/Gup system (no belts, no stripes, no titles) and you could only be a teacher or student (and teacher meant you had a school and actually taught)....how many would fade away from the arts altogether?

All but two... master and apprentice.

You don't know the power of the dark side.