thoughts on weight training
- Thread starter gungfufreddie
- Start date
Yup. Intense training, for aerobic capacity, strength, overall conditioning or whatever, gives you by far the biggest bang for your time investment buck.
The price you pay, of course, is that intense training tends to take you into zones of considerable discomfort to a much greater extent than low-intensity long-duration training. But who said training was supposed to be fun??? :EG:
That's why God invented Tigers Balm(red) and Jack Daniels(black)..
EXACTLY—the fun is for later! :drinky: :drinkbeer: :drinky:
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, Weight training willl increase your muscle size...strength..and longer hairs (not sure of this one).
Anytime you can make yourself stronger...will only benifit you!
Try this one excerise only: squeeze a ball several hunderd times a day, rotate each hand.
By the end of the month grab someone? Your grip will be so much stronger....you will be able to make them do what you want? ...pull,throw,? This is more of a strenght training (but the idea is to increase muscle size. Weight training does this too!
Push-up's is weight training too, sit-up's, jumping rope all involves moving weights. The bigger your body the more weight's need to be move!
Weighting your thoughts on weight training? Go with the weights!
A police man can raise his hand and hold up the traffic (this makes him one of the strongist man in the world.)
Aloha.....
Anytime you can make yourself stronger...will only benifit you!
Try this one excerise only: squeeze a ball several hunderd times a day, rotate each hand.
By the end of the month grab someone? Your grip will be so much stronger....you will be able to make them do what you want? ...pull,throw,? This is more of a strenght training (but the idea is to increase muscle size. Weight training does this too!
Push-up's is weight training too, sit-up's, jumping rope all involves moving weights. The bigger your body the more weight's need to be move!
Weighting your thoughts on weight training? Go with the weights!
A police man can raise his hand and hold up the traffic (this makes him one of the strongist man in the world.)
Aloha.....
In most sports, putting on muscle and "bulking up" is not advantageous. Most sports require agility and speed and endurance, bodybuilding programs typically entail slow speed of muscle contractions. Power is important, but does not necessarily equate to size or muscle mass.
I look at what body systems I feel I need to improve and build my program around that. For example, one athlete may lack muscle endurance or cardio vascular endurance. Another may lack speed / quickness or explosiveness. One may lack max strength/power. Each will require a different program.
Do you want to focus on fast twitch response or muscle endurance? Lots to think about.
My program has a varied approach. I incorporate a lot of Olympic lifts (power clean, hang cleans, high pulls, push press etc) for explosiveness and to train the body as one unit (for neurological reasons, as well time).
I will often through in a power lifting day for strength / power or add in some plyometrics. Usually one day a week is a Hypertrophy day. Despite not being worth as much athletically, I like to keep a little size and symmetry.
I would recommend this article (as well as both of this guys websites, lots of good stuff for fighters);
http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/strengthtraining.html
http://rosstraining.com/
http://www.rossboxing.com/
Check out his articles and video's.
Also, for those who haven't read it, I would recommend Periodization Training for Sports, by Tudor O Bompa.
I didn't have time to read each post, so I hope this is helpful and not redundant.
I look at what body systems I feel I need to improve and build my program around that. For example, one athlete may lack muscle endurance or cardio vascular endurance. Another may lack speed / quickness or explosiveness. One may lack max strength/power. Each will require a different program.
Do you want to focus on fast twitch response or muscle endurance? Lots to think about.
My program has a varied approach. I incorporate a lot of Olympic lifts (power clean, hang cleans, high pulls, push press etc) for explosiveness and to train the body as one unit (for neurological reasons, as well time).
I will often through in a power lifting day for strength / power or add in some plyometrics. Usually one day a week is a Hypertrophy day. Despite not being worth as much athletically, I like to keep a little size and symmetry.
I would recommend this article (as well as both of this guys websites, lots of good stuff for fighters);
http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/strengthtraining.html
http://rosstraining.com/
http://www.rossboxing.com/
Check out his articles and video's.
Also, for those who haven't read it, I would recommend Periodization Training for Sports, by Tudor O Bompa.
I didn't have time to read each post, so I hope this is helpful and not redundant.
Sorry... I just don't get this.
(i) Muscles supply their own vascularization—increase your muscle mass and there's a concommittant increase in local capillary density, so no matter how muscular you get, you're still going to be supplied with nutriants for as much muscle as you have. And muscle growth doesn't involve the slightest decrease in activation time for the muscles involved: the same neural units activate larger muscle bundles as smaller ones, and again, synaptic connections increase as muscle size (indeed any `active' tissue mass) increases. So where would a `slowdown' come from??
(ii) bodybuilding programs typically entail slow speed of muscle contractions... in what sense?? Are you saying that increasing muscle mass leads to the decrease in the speed of muscle neural motor unit activation?? What evidence would there be for this decrease? And if there isn't any, what do those the statements I've quoted mean?
I've just turned 60. I weigh around 180 lbs, and at my last body comp test showed up with something like 9–10% body fat... but when I was a scrawny teenager and into my early 20s, I weighed around 150, probably the same %. So since then, I've added 30 lbs, almost all of it lean muscle tissue. I'm faster now than I ever have been in my life, even when I was a ski racer in my late 20s, and do heavy lifting on an (systematically infrequent) regular basis, using the Sisco/Little `power factor' protocol (very short reps at high speed in only the strongest range of motion, using a power rack for most exercises). I see absolutely no disadvantages in terms of speed, agility, flexibility etc. to serious weight training... only advantages.
OP
OP
gungfufreddie
White Belt
I like the input here, honestly i've always done alternating shifts for power and muscularity. i perform these on weekly basis, power - 3 sets of 10 on a comfortable weight, as the weeks go on i increase the weight (not reps) and record progress. on muscularity - 3 sets of 10 on comfortable weight, as weeks go on i increase repetitions (not weight) and record progress. i've been doing this for the past year, progress was slow but once it got started it kept going like a freight train. originally i could only do about 40 lbs max on my one arm row, now i can do 150 lbs max 3 reps max and i can do god knows how many at 50 lbs. hopefully i gave information worth applying, if not let me know and i can attempt to give information worth while. fitness is my passion and i love discussing it, your body is the best instrument you will ever own so use it in anyway you can!
bujuts
Green Belt
We should consider that most striking will be performed with extensor groups, not flexors. So, while biceps might do right for looks, they won't make you hit harder ('cept, they will help in grappling strength, of course).
All in all, I prefer to work functional development. In regards to hitting, the major extensor groups at work are the shoulders (traps and rear deltoids), triceps, lats, quads, calves. Core strength through abs and obliques, etc. not withstanding.
I feel legs are among the most important, even for those who don't kick much. Looks might be a convenient by-product (I tell my girlfriend I like to "stay in shape", but that's BS, I want to HIT HARDER
), but functional power, fast twitch, and endurance are what I'm after. Also, don't forget exercises that challenge connective tissues, not just muscle.
Cheers
All in all, I prefer to work functional development. In regards to hitting, the major extensor groups at work are the shoulders (traps and rear deltoids), triceps, lats, quads, calves. Core strength through abs and obliques, etc. not withstanding.
I feel legs are among the most important, even for those who don't kick much. Looks might be a convenient by-product (I tell my girlfriend I like to "stay in shape", but that's BS, I want to HIT HARDER
), but functional power, fast twitch, and endurance are what I'm after. Also, don't forget exercises that challenge connective tissues, not just muscle.Cheers
Great questions, thoughts and observations, thanks. Just as a clarification, I am not against strength training, I think it is an absolute must for any athlete for a number of reasons. I am against “bulking up” just for the hell of it, without thought to a program that takes into account more than just the goal of hypertrophy. That alone is not advantageous to an athlete.
To you specific questions;
“Bodybuilders” number one concern is with hypertrophy, or an increase in muscle size. Body building programs typically entail a rep range of 6- 12 most often to exhaustion. They often focus on isolation, to insure symmetrical and aesthetic development of each individual muscle.
The body, when active in sports, rarely works in isolation, and should be trained as a complete unit whenever possible. As far as speed of muscle contraction – athletic movements (especially martial arts) are explosive. The “slow speed of contraction in bodybuilding has limited positive transfer to sports.” Most athletic movements fall between 100 to 180 milliseconds – they are performed quickly. Leg extensions, bicep curls etc, fall within the 600 to 800 millisecond range. This is a noticeable difference in contraction time and ultimately in motor unit and fiber type recruitment.
Again, most bodybuilding programs focus on the aesthetic development of each muscle. Sports focus on a specific ability, and should specify the most dominant ability (ie, the one that a sport requires in higher demand.) Maybe that dominant ability is power, or the ability to perform an explosive movement the shortest amount of time possible. This biomotor ability is a function of maximum strength, and speed strength. Neither of these are trained using a rep range of 6-12 with a 600 millisecond muscle contraction. That is specifically designed for hypertrophy. While more muscle mass may not slow a fellow down, unless it was trained specifically, it wont speed him up, either.
It is the development of a specific dominant biomotor ability a fighter needs to focus on, not just “I wanna get big, man.”
ItÂ’s a matter of goals, in no way does strength training slow a fighter down, nor hurt his flexibility and endurance, but a body building programmed focusing only on gaining size certainly can.
Yes, the same neural units activate the muscle regardless of size. However, the type of training does impact the speed at which the muscle fibers can be recruited and the percentage of total muscle fibers recruited. This has a specific effect on starting power, reactive power, speed, and endurance and so each biomotor ability must be trained as such. The speed of contraction is “load related” – that is why you have more force at the beginning of a contraction than at the end. As you know, muscles have “motor nerves” and “sensory nerves” – It is the motor nerves that relate to movement. The motor nerves send impulses from the nervous system to the “motor end plate” which result in muscle contraction. Each muscle has special fibers – that facilitate contraction. The ability a muscle has to contract or exert an amount of force is based on the type of fiber it is – its length, and the actual number of fibers within the muscle. The number of fibers is pretty much set, the rest can be manipulated through training.
A single motor nerve together with muscle fiber is a “motor unit”. You mentioned that
The actual number of motor units involved in a contraction depends on the load imposed on the muscle and the contraction duration (600 milliseconds vs. 150 milliseconds). In this regard, a “body building / hypertrophy specific” program would use a moderate load, (say 8 to 12 reps) and recruit a smaller number of total motor units and thus the strength of the contraction is low. Extremely heavy loads recruit all, or almost all, motor units thus training maximal force output (or speed/power).
In addition, motor units are recruited in sequence, and the only way to train the entire muscle is to use maximum loads where every motor unit is recruited.
This begs the question, do we want to train Type I (slow twitch ) or Type II (fast twitch) muscle fibers? What biomotor ability is most prominent in your sport or type of competition?
For example, while endurance (both cardio and muscular) is important to the fighter planning on going 15 rounds (or 5 three minute rounds) he will still rely heavily on fast twitch muscle. This is even more the case for the guy training with self-defense in mind, where speed and force production is of the essence. Fast twitch fibers are used in short, fast burst type activities (a jab, front kick or parry) it is not only the speed of the contraction that that causes motor nerves to recruit fast twitch fibers, but the force of the muscle. This is why athletes that require explosive movements must increase power – Body building programs fail to utilize the contraction speed needed, or the load needed, to fully recruit motor units and the full range of fast twitch fibers. As fighters, we are often concerned with explosive strength. “The ability to produce maximal forces in minimal time is called explosive strength. Strong people do not necessarily possess explosive strength.” The development of one strength quality (ex. max-strength) does not guarantee the development of another
I appreciate the questions and points. I hope this helps explain what I meant, and my view on training. I should note, that most of this info came from my PDBIO classes, the direct quotes and definitions of strength types came from Tudor Bompa, and Ross Enamait. I strongly recommend their material.
Thanks for the conversation sir!
To you specific questions;
“Bodybuilders” number one concern is with hypertrophy, or an increase in muscle size. Body building programs typically entail a rep range of 6- 12 most often to exhaustion. They often focus on isolation, to insure symmetrical and aesthetic development of each individual muscle.
The body, when active in sports, rarely works in isolation, and should be trained as a complete unit whenever possible. As far as speed of muscle contraction – athletic movements (especially martial arts) are explosive. The “slow speed of contraction in bodybuilding has limited positive transfer to sports.” Most athletic movements fall between 100 to 180 milliseconds – they are performed quickly. Leg extensions, bicep curls etc, fall within the 600 to 800 millisecond range. This is a noticeable difference in contraction time and ultimately in motor unit and fiber type recruitment.
Again, most bodybuilding programs focus on the aesthetic development of each muscle. Sports focus on a specific ability, and should specify the most dominant ability (ie, the one that a sport requires in higher demand.) Maybe that dominant ability is power, or the ability to perform an explosive movement the shortest amount of time possible. This biomotor ability is a function of maximum strength, and speed strength. Neither of these are trained using a rep range of 6-12 with a 600 millisecond muscle contraction. That is specifically designed for hypertrophy. While more muscle mass may not slow a fellow down, unless it was trained specifically, it wont speed him up, either.
It is the development of a specific dominant biomotor ability a fighter needs to focus on, not just “I wanna get big, man.”
ItÂ’s a matter of goals, in no way does strength training slow a fighter down, nor hurt his flexibility and endurance, but a body building programmed focusing only on gaining size certainly can.
Yes, the same neural units activate the muscle regardless of size. However, the type of training does impact the speed at which the muscle fibers can be recruited and the percentage of total muscle fibers recruited. This has a specific effect on starting power, reactive power, speed, and endurance and so each biomotor ability must be trained as such. The speed of contraction is “load related” – that is why you have more force at the beginning of a contraction than at the end. As you know, muscles have “motor nerves” and “sensory nerves” – It is the motor nerves that relate to movement. The motor nerves send impulses from the nervous system to the “motor end plate” which result in muscle contraction. Each muscle has special fibers – that facilitate contraction. The ability a muscle has to contract or exert an amount of force is based on the type of fiber it is – its length, and the actual number of fibers within the muscle. The number of fibers is pretty much set, the rest can be manipulated through training.
A single motor nerve together with muscle fiber is a “motor unit”. You mentioned that
Yes, but while the muscle fibers respond to the stimulation of the motor nerve within a single motor unit, not all motor units are activated during a muscle contraction.
The actual number of motor units involved in a contraction depends on the load imposed on the muscle and the contraction duration (600 milliseconds vs. 150 milliseconds). In this regard, a “body building / hypertrophy specific” program would use a moderate load, (say 8 to 12 reps) and recruit a smaller number of total motor units and thus the strength of the contraction is low. Extremely heavy loads recruit all, or almost all, motor units thus training maximal force output (or speed/power).
In addition, motor units are recruited in sequence, and the only way to train the entire muscle is to use maximum loads where every motor unit is recruited.
This begs the question, do we want to train Type I (slow twitch ) or Type II (fast twitch) muscle fibers? What biomotor ability is most prominent in your sport or type of competition?
For example, while endurance (both cardio and muscular) is important to the fighter planning on going 15 rounds (or 5 three minute rounds) he will still rely heavily on fast twitch muscle. This is even more the case for the guy training with self-defense in mind, where speed and force production is of the essence. Fast twitch fibers are used in short, fast burst type activities (a jab, front kick or parry) it is not only the speed of the contraction that that causes motor nerves to recruit fast twitch fibers, but the force of the muscle. This is why athletes that require explosive movements must increase power – Body building programs fail to utilize the contraction speed needed, or the load needed, to fully recruit motor units and the full range of fast twitch fibers. As fighters, we are often concerned with explosive strength. “The ability to produce maximal forces in minimal time is called explosive strength. Strong people do not necessarily possess explosive strength.” The development of one strength quality (ex. max-strength) does not guarantee the development of another
I appreciate the questions and points. I hope this helps explain what I meant, and my view on training. I should note, that most of this info came from my PDBIO classes, the direct quotes and definitions of strength types came from Tudor Bompa, and Ross Enamait. I strongly recommend their material.
Thanks for the conversation sir!
