type of training I need?

[Rahde]

Hi, I need some help on what type of muscle training I should do. Right now I'm a beginner but I'm done my research and I've decided to practise muay thai. However I need to know what type of training I need to do first to get me stronger before I do serious training.

First, here is some information about me. I'm 18 (19 in June), about 145 pounds, 5' 10". (yeah I know, I'm scrawny). I've been lifting weights for about 2 months now, max bench is 160 pounds. I was hoping to do lots of lifting, isolating muscles, to get strength (and weight). However, my friend, who does free style martial arts tells me to do a different training style. That is, 3 sets of pull ups (with bar), dips, squats (horsestance) and pushups and keep doing that until my body gives out. I know that this will give me endurance but I don't think this will be the fastest way for me to gain muscle.

I was hoping to mix the two training styles, i.e. alternating between weight lifting and his style but he tells me that will be contradictory since weight training and his style builds different type of muscles and they will reduce the effects of each other. What I want to do is weightlifting since that will give me a shape and muscles but is that bad for muay thai fighting since, according to him, my muscles won't know how to work together effeciently?

Any advice, programs, plans you guys can offer would be great. Thanks in advance.

 

[Zepp]

Hi Radhe, welcome to MT.

First of all:

I was hoping to mix the two training styles, i.e. alternating between weight lifting and his style but he tells me that will be contradictory since weight training and his style builds different type of muscles and they will reduce the effects of each other. What I want to do is weightlifting since that will give me a shape and muscles but is that bad for muay thai fighting since, according to him, my muscles won't know how to work together effeciently?

This makes no sense and is just plain wrong. Training different muscle groups doesn't stop your muscles from working together efficiently. Weight lifting, if done properly, is a good compliment to any martial art.

Secondly, it sounds as though what you're probably looking for is a diverse training regimen that will make your whole body strong, give you good aerobic endurance, and make you look good to the opposite sex, is that right?

A good Muay Tai instructor should definitely help you out with the aerobic workout portion, and they may have good advice for your weightlifting as well. I say go for it.

What you need to decide for yourself is whether you want to lift weights primarily to gain strength, or to tone your muscles and gain endurance. You'll gain both either way, but your routine will determine which one you gain more of. I really suggest looking in the health tips forum where people with more lifting experience than me have provided advice and links to good weight lifting sites.

 

[Brother John]

1st: JUMP IN to your Mui Thai! Just get in there and DIG IN. Doing that work will help increase strength and endurance for sure. What you are looking for is supplemental to your Mui Thai... so the MT is Primary. Get in there and drop sweat for a while. If you still have the juice to lift later, great.

2nd: I'm w/Zepp. Weight training is something that EVERY sport's physiologist says will HELP, no matter what it is you're doing. Don't worry about that. It makes your muscles more efficient too.

3rd: You don't need to be 'isolating' any specific muscles for now. Beginning weight trainers like yourself need a good solid basic routine composed almost entirely from multi-joint movements. It might look something like this:

Monday - Wednesday - Friday
10 min. warm up & Stretch (NEVER neglect this part)
Bench Press: ((I'll set this up, keeping in mind what you said your max is))
95 lbs X 14 reps (thats the bar plus 25's on each side)
115 lbs X 10 reps (add a '10' plate to each side)
135 lbs X 8 reps (remove the 10's & 25's, put on 35's & 10's)
145 lbs X 6 reps (add a '5' to each side)

(stretch between each set. I wrote this bench-press section out w/the reps and poundages to show you how to pyramid. As the weight goes up, the reps come down. Now I'll go on with the routine and just put the number of sets and no reps or weight. Do enough reps w/each weight that the last rep is difficult.)

So 1st the Bench Press
then...
Bent over rows (barbell), 4 sets w/a medium width grip.
Millitary Press (over the head barbell press), 4 sets, shoulder width grip.
Squats, 5 sets, feet shoulder width apart. (don't go down further than the seated position)
Deadlifts, 4 sets
Chin-ups, 4 sets (reps will vary, try to never do less than six)
Barbell curls, 4 sets
tricep extentions, 4 sets
crunches 100
Leg lifts 100

GO HIT THE HOT-TUB.

Remember: Never hit the same muscle group more than once every 48 hours (lift every other day, I highly recomend the mon-wens-fri sessions until you're ready to go to the next level) Periodically you are going to NEED to increase the amount of weight that you are using... remember: what you are trying to do is tax the muscles to do More than they are used to... so once your body is getting used to this routine, step it up. You've got to lift big to get big. If anyone ever tells you that you don't need to lift heavy weights to gain size, they are only 5% right but 95% Wrong. high repetition workouts will help some in muscular endurance, but for US martial artists....our muscular endurance SHOULD be coming from doing lots and lots and lots of our art of choice. Our weight routine should be there for strength! Also: Something that not a lot of people have mentioned yet, gaining muscle will help protect your joints and internal organs as well!!!!

If you have any other questions or would like me to flesh out this routine even better, or help you change it once you are ready to go to the 'next level'.... PLEASE don't hesitate to get ahold of me.
KansasKenpoKarate {at} Gmail {dot} com . ((replace the 'at' w/an @ ))
BTW: The "next level" shouldn't occur for a good year.

Your Brother
John

 

[Rahde]

thanks for all your help guys

Secondly, it sounds as though what you're probably looking for is a diverse training regimen that will make your whole body strong, give you good aerobic endurance, and make you look good to the opposite sex, is that right?

Yep, you got it. However, will doing high repetition things like pushups make them more defined, and smaller? as opposed to doing benchpress which makes them bigger but less defined? I think this is what my friend was saying, that one type makes them smaller and the other makes them bigger so if you did both, the effects would cancel out?

Bench Press: ((I'll set this up, keeping in mind what you said your max is))...

I'm wondering, does doing it in a pyramid have any advantage say in just doing reps at 145 (which is what I do now)


Thanks again

 

[Brother John]

thanks for all your help guys

Yep, you got it. However, will doing high repetition things like pushups make them more defined, and smaller? as opposed to doing benchpress which makes them bigger but less defined? I think this is what my friend was saying, that one type makes them smaller and the other makes them bigger so if you did both, the effects would cancel out?

I'm wondering, does doing it in a pyramid have any advantage say in just doing reps at 145 (which is what I do now)


Thanks again

Ok Rahde-
Doing "high repetition" doesn't make anything more 'defined'. What bodybuilders commonly refer to as "Definition" has to do with shedding excess bodyfat and watter rentention so that the skin clings tightly to the muscle, showing each contour and sometimes even showing striation. This is more a product of diet and aerobic exercise than anything. There are two types of muscle: commonly called Type 1: Slow twitch (higher repetition, not nearly as much strength.....if higher repetition increase strength and size...then cross country runners and marathon runners would have friggin HUGE legs...but they don't...do they?), and Type 2: Fast twitch (used for moving greater loads and moving explosively...it's also about 2-3 times the size and density of Type 1). Type 2 is pretty much only increased through higher load demand (Bigger weights). So...the majority of the musculature you have is Type 2, and type 2 is the kind that your martial arts training requires for explosive motoin. ((BTW: Bench pressing doesn't make anything bigger or less defined....Benching BIGGER weights will make your pectorals, anterior deltoids and triceps larger...but it doesn't have anything to do with definition. If you think about it, it's easier to 'define' something that's bigger than it is to define something that's smaller....... you can make a bigger statue with more detail if you begin with a LARGER stone!))

ALSO: NO type of lifting makes you 'smaller' (not lighter and definitely Not heavier, not low reps and not high reps) ...that's called atrophy, it only happens due to total lack of use, a realllllly bad diet or disease (like cancer).

The reason for "Pyramiding" your weights is that you want to bring as many of the muscle fibers into play as you can; both types. So you hit the higher weight with lower reps and lower weight with higher reps to stimulate both types. Pyramiding is pretty standard procedure for weight training.

Hope this helps.
Your Brother
John

PS: ALWAYS REMEMBER: your muscles DO NOT grow from lifting weights!!!! They grow from RECOVERING from lifting weights. Always be sure to get your rest and thensome.
ALSO: Your muscles are mostly water!! IF you lift enough to cause hypertrophy (Growth) then be certain to drink more than you usually would. If you usually drink soda or coffee....don't. IF you do, then drink MUCH MUCH more water.

 

[Tony]

I have never against weight training but for serious Martial Artists you have to be careful you don't put too much muscle on sacrificing speed and flexibility. Look at Bruce Lee fantastic physique and he did weight train but made sure it was specific to what he wanted. Look at his forearms, they were huge and that helped with his punching power. Make sure you work on your technqiues as well as lifting the weights. Being bigger doesn't necessarily give you more power, strength yes but try not to overdo it.

 

[Brother John]

I have never against weight training but for serious Martial Artists you have to be careful you don't put too much muscle on sacrificing speed and flexibility.

What creates 'speed' in physical performance?
Muscular contraction.
What would happen if you had more muscle; ie..more strength, more power, greater "Fast twitch" musculature???
Faster/stronger contractions. This would lead to faster stronger techniques. TRUE: as I said in my very first post here, work first and foremost on the performance of your art. THAT is primary. But PROPER weight training will only increase your ability, not hamper it.
What is Flexibility? It is the ability to move a limb throughout it's natural range of motion. So really, the only way that weight training will hamper one's flexibility is IF the person training uses lifts that limit their range of motion... like only doing half of a 'curl' or press; then yes...you'd be limiting your range of motion. HOWEVER: if you lift correctly you'll actually not only increase your flexibility but also increase the ammount of power/force you can exert throughout that range of motion. The people that train to do the hurdles and the steeple chase in college and the olympics spend a good deal of time in the gym lifting heavy. Would they do so if it impared their flexibility??? NO. Boxers spend a good deal of time training with weights. Would they do this if it impared their ability to move quickly or swiftly??
no.

Tony: You mentioned "Bruce Lee". Good example. He did have a wonderful physique!!! But you are mistaken if you think that he didn't take his weight training as far as it could take him. Thing is the reason why Mr. Lee wasn't known to be really huge with LARGE muscles...well, there's two reasons:
#1: He was Chinese. Ever see the Chinese weightlifters in the Olympics? They are VERY VERY strong!!! But not very large, not by occidental standards. They have a strong tendency to be "ectomorphs" (if you don't know what that means, go to www.google.com and look it up)...which means high metabolism, lean musculature, thin framed...etc. Mr. Lee was no exception. He didn't get "BIG" because his genetic potential limited the amount of Mass he could put on.

#2: He was known (by students and those close to him) as a classic "over-trainer". He was fanatical about his own personal workouts. NO DOUBT this is one source of his great abilities...but also he seldom gave himself time to recouperate fully. This is one thing that will cut muscular development short in a heartbeat!!! Like I said before, muscles grow when they recouperate from having lifted. He really never allowed himself that much in the way of recouperation. I get that from his own notes/letters that have since been published and the word of several people close to him...including Mr. Inosanto and Mrs. Lee herself.

#3: Large muscular fore-arms do not make that great a contribution, in and of themselves, to punching power. A strong pectoral structure, strong deltoids, strong triceps and strong latisimus dorsi are involved in the extention of the arm with force/power...but the forearms just hold the hand in place so that the wrist won't break. Important, but only for protection, not power transference.

Being bigger doesn't necessarily give you more power

NO...you are correct, it doesn't. BUT: well developed muscles that are able to contract powerfully, rapidly and with GREAT strength...most often, are large. Not all 'big' muscles are strong muscles....that's true. There are ways (even besides drugs) to trick the body to produce more size than strength. But strength will most often bring with it more size.
Just a biological fact.

Your Brother
John

 

[Rahde]

Brother John, you've been a great help. Thanks a lot for all your information.

 

[still learning]

Hello These are my thoughts. You may want to do alot of conditional training. Things like jump rope, short burst of sprints, squats jumping with hands on the back of the neck. Try to work your way up to at least an hour with short rest in between. Muscles are nice but to be able to keep going in a fighting situation is better. Look at your art and boxers and grappers. These guys are really stronger in a fight. Muscle builders look niceer. ....Aloha

 

[Brother John]

Muscles are nice but to be able to keep going in a fighting situation is better. Look at your art and boxers and grappers. These guys are really stronger in a fight. Muscle builders look niceer. ....Aloha

The exercises you mention are good. Especially short sprints. Something I've been looking into is intermitant running....where you walk for four minutes, ALL OUT sprint for one, repeat...repeat....repreat. According to many trainers this will build up better endurance, vo2 max and the ability to generate Bursts of energy upon demand. This along with Plyometric training would be GREAT.

BUT: I don't think that Rahde is trying to especially "Build muscles", but to create a great deal of strength. Doing so most often does come with a fringe benefit of large more defined muscles.

also: Grapplers and Boxers DO focus on weight training as well. Can't recall his name right off but the guy who competed in Judo in, not this last, but the Olympics before hand stated "If an outside observer were to witness my preparation leading up to the Olympics, they'd think I was in the weight lifting division."

Your Brother
John

 

[KickingCrane]

People have already given you lots of good advice; however, let me add a couple of things for you to consider that could save you a lot of grief.

With respect to bench presses: Be very careful with these as they can be very hard on your shoulders. In fact, I would reccomend dumbell presses instead. Whichever type you choose, make sure that your arms don't go below paralell in the down position. The farther you go down, the harder it will be on your shoulders. To work the pecs, it is absolutely unnecessary for the bar to touch your chest.

With respect ot squats: These are excellent excercises if done correctly. The main thing you want to conentrate on is keeping your back straight. When squatting, don't look down - look straight ahead or upwards.

Whatever excercise you are doing, pay close attention to form. Don't use so much weight that your form gets sloppy - that's how you get injured. You should use that amount of weight that allows you to perform the excercise perfectly and reach failure within the desired number of reps.

Finally, I know it's expensive, but finding a good personal trainer and working with him for a few workouts would be invaluable. I see beginning weight trainers doing some of the stupidest things that are potentially very injurious - that or just completely ineffective. A good trainer can show you the right way to lift and make sure your form is on target.

Good Luck!

 

[Brother John]

To work the pecs, it is absolutely unnecessary for the bar to touch your chest.

Whatever excercise you are doing, pay close attention to form. Don't use so much weight that your form gets sloppy - that's how you get injured!

Hey KickingCrane, First off....welcome to Martial Talk!! I look forward to reading your posts.

While I seriously disagree with your assessment on the Bench Press depth..

I couldn't agree MORE with your advice on form!!! That's SO KEY!!! Never bounce, never 'swing', move smooooothly and steadily. Some people want to impress themselves with the amount of weight they can move...and find that keeping good form makes it harder to pack on the plates, but really the leverage and control needed to maintain good form does more for the body than all those extra plates plus some. Besides, as you pointed out, 'cheating' (as poor form is called in weight training) is what gets you INJURED!!!!
Right on.

Your Brother
John

 

[eyebeams]

If you're plateauing, it could be the result of your body getting used to the routine or from overtraining.

Now may be the time to make a major adjustment to your training, either by by altering reps and sets, changing the exercises you do or even changing how you split your routine. You may also want to add a few cheating reps with a spotter at a higher than normal weight.

Yes, everybody is down on cheating. But it works. Just don't be dumb about it. Cheating exists to acclimatize your body to a weight higher than your sticking point. You *must* have a spotter and it *only* applies to the last few reps of a set. *Never* choose a weight that would force you to cheat on the first set. *Never* cheat by arching your back.

If you are uncomfortable with cheating, try to "cheat" with help from a sufficiently strong spotter. A good spotter knows that part of his/her help is really psychological and is sensitive to how much help you really need. Even pulling the bar with 2 fingers is sometimes all the psychological support you need to finish a rep.

I personally believe it is important to regularly touch base with bodyweight exercises. If overtraining is the culprit, you might want to take a week or two off to do nothing but a bodyweight routine of pushups, situps, pullups and free squats.

 

[TX_BB]

Try a personal trainer, if you cann't afford it time to hit the books on strength, endurance, aerobic and explosive (pylometric) training from here you have a sufficient knoweldge base to come up with a plan on your own. Your 18 a great time for getting knoweldge on weight training. So far your ideas are solid, having someone think for you or thinking for yourself with a base education will lead to the quickest gains.