The two hand "X" block against a kick?

[Cirdan]

Cirdan,

by killing an opponent in a knife fight while being a trained person the rules of self defense dont apply the same to Martial Artists.. because if you kill your attacker, you'll still go on trial, and they'll ask, "havent you had training on how to stop knife attack's?" it can be used, and has been in the past. (in England they threw a farmer in jail for shooting a burglar in the leg, for defending his life and his house they threw him in jail for something like 3 years...and the burglar took him to court and won for the gun wound to the leg!)

What are you saying? That somoene trying to stab you is not a lethal threat? Asuming you are skilled enough to handle something this is dangerous to say the least.

and, i only used the nonlethal technique because of a personal issue. i know many lethal techniques it's just that, i've seen a friend of mine take a wooden knife in the wrist because he messed up his block.

Perhaps you should get duller pratice knives or use less force if you hurt each other. Do you train like this "perfect example" often? Not very realistic, attackers trying to stab you are not likely to try to get you in a wrist lock using the pommel of their own weapon. I really hope bs like this is not thaught in a self defense context.
(edit) Just to clarify, I don`t think the technique is totally bad, it is the way it is being used.

my point was that, just because you have a black belt does not mean you know a lot. pride only lead's to close mindedness, and therefore one's downfall.

True. This goes for us all. You might want to think twice about your own training methods and what they are intended to teach.

and on the "X" block issue.. over half of HwaRang Do's Orange belt techniques start with steping back and blocking a kick, following up with a block to a punch, or punches, and then counter attacking. i'm sure if these techniques were good enough for Korean Elite warriors who often faught at hand to hand distance then they still apply today.

If you are refering to the Hwarang (and I am not sure you are) then you need a lesson in history, your art has the name and little else in common with this group.

Secondly, take your own advice, don`t be close minded. The techniques you mention sounds more like drills to give the student a feeling of distance than anything "good enough" except as a beginning step on the path.

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm don't wish to become embroiled in an argument that is likely to have no end but I just wanted to broaden the light on Wesley's chosen example of the legal consequences of self defence.

Why the farmer you mentioned was jailed was due to the circumstances of the incident. It was not the fact that he killed someone who was attempting to burgularise his home but the fact that he shot someone who was running away i.e. that the force used was not in self defence but in retribution.

The case was very high profile over here, as you can imagine and has actually had an effect on the law. Some hold the changes to be detrimental to the rights of people to defend themselves because it removes the blanket carte blanche on the level of force used. The fact remains that such cases are always decided by jury and it is up to them to determine whether the force used was understandable (not the same as 'reaonable') in the circumstances.




How the basic frame of the law stands now (quoted from Francis bennion, a constitutional lawyer who has had a hand in drafting a number of British laws http://www.francisbennion.com/pages/70/aboutfb.htm):

Before Parliament altered it, the common law would have acquitted Mr Tony Martin. I quote Blackstone: ‘If any person attempts to break open a house in the night-time, and shall be killed in such attempt, the slayer shall be acquitted and discharged’. Blackstone added that burglary, or nocturnal housebreaking, had always been looked on as a heinous offence; not only because of the abundant terror that it naturally carries with it, but also as it is a forcible invasion and disturbance of that right of habitation which every individual might acquire even in a state of nature. ‘And the law of England has so particular and tender regard to the immunity of a man’s house that it styles it his castle and will never suffer it to be violated with impunity’. Nowadays the law’s tender regard is for villains and burglars.

...

The chief cause of public disquiet over the case of Tony Martin and similar cases is the test of reasonableness in relation to resistance by householders to burglars or other invaders of their home. English common law has moved on from the days of Blackstone and reached a position where the amount of force used, if the householder is not to risk prosecution and conviction, must be proportionate to the threat posed. If an intruder comes at you with a knife, you may use a knife in return. If he is armed only with a baseball bat you would be unwise to use a knife in defending yourself – and discharging a firearm would mean certain trouble with the law. Yet when the adrenalin flows in the trauma of an attack it may be difficult to keep a cool head. Darkness may prevent you seeing whether a burglar is armed, and if so with what kind of weapon. You may panic. How then can you judge accurately what degree of force is proportionate?

The difficulty is that the test is objective not subjective. A jury trying your case will be directed to assess whether in all the circumstances the amount of force you used really was reasonable and proportionate, not whether you genuinely thought it was. The position is fully set out in a Law Commission document on the defence of self-defence.

 

[Adept]

there are MANY things that are not taught in schools that are EXTREMELY effective in a street fight.

You're going to the wrong schools.

 

[still learning]

Excellent find (to use the word 'expose' would be over-gilding the lily but it does explain much).

S_L for one last time I shall try to entice you into seeing that no matter how much you want something to be true, sometimes it simply isn't. Now I realise that this cuts both ways and also concede that to argue your case is not necessarily being disruptive per se. But, that being said, the ground you're on is not firm in terms of the actuality of what kata based training is all about.

I've hinted at it before but you are not doing your reputation any good with this constant grind of us telling you "Look! The sky is blue!" and your gainsaying of that. For all our sakes, please stop and think on both what we have said in various forms in various threads and your reaction to the same.

I commend you on the fact that when given some fairly brusque responses you have, in the main, retained your calm. That was very well done. But, as with any activity involving human interaction, there is usually a reason why people start to become exasperated. Sticking to your guns is one thing and commendable under some circumstances but there comes a time when it is better to be the willow than the rock.

Mata Na.

Hello, There are NO science or real solid FACTS that Kata training is a big benifit to learning real self-defence for the streets!!!

All those masters before us? ....were taught kata's and where train to believe in them. (those days they did it for hours and hours...daily...in sense this builds memories) to the mind and body...

Today this is rare to see this type of Kata training and with so many kata's ? NO sure?

IF kata's where so effective in training? ...How come you do not see this is others sports...or FBI training...or seals training? ...or our own military self-defense programs?

NO proof of kata's effectives for the streets? ....The truth will be known by your own students trying to protect themselves on the streets....using the forms of kata? .....where fights are never like a kata fight!

Look at many of the movements? ....will you be like that is a real fight?

Where is the proof or truths? .....base on real science and actully facts?

Maybe that is why the controversy will go on and on...because many are starting to see the the truths of kata....one by one....

( everytime one reads about those in the past...shame,trial,jail, hung, or remove from society because they were the only ones who believe in there beliefs...today were found to be correct....even the inventer of the radio...)

Aloha .....One day? ...I may be proven wrong? ...or maybe correct in my beliefs...

FACTS is not the same as beliefs ......

 

[Makalakumu]

SL - I would suggest you check out this thread. See if any of these dojos are near you and try them out. My advice is to find a traditional Okinawan karate dojo, train for a while, then come back and see if you still feel this way. This is about all anyone can do right now in this discussion. You want facts, they exists. In the thread located above are some resources. Go out and discover for yourself.

 

[MJS]

Cirdan,

by killing an opponent in a knife fight while being a trained person the rules of self defense dont apply the same to Martial Artists.. because if you kill your attacker, you'll still go on trial, and they'll ask, "havent you had training on how to stop knife attack's?" it can be used, and has been in the past. (in England they threw a farmer in jail for shooting a burglar in the leg, for defending his life and his house they threw him in jail for something like 3 years...and the burglar took him to court and won for the gun wound to the leg!)

Are you sure about that? Laws vary from state to state, country to country.
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2002/olrdata/jud/rpt/2002-R-0847.htm

and on the "X" block issue.. over half of HwaRang Do's Orange belt techniques start with steping back and blocking a kick, following up with a block to a punch, or punches, and then counter attacking. i'm sure if these techniques were good enough for Korean Elite warriors who often faught at hand to hand distance then they still apply today.

A few things:

1) I always find it interesting when people say, "Well, if it worked for this person or during this time, it'll always work!" Personally, I'm not interested in what worked or works for others, I'm interested in making sure things are going to work for me.

2) An X block has its plus side. I have not argued against that. However, the difference in its effectiveness lies in the application of the X block.

3) I still find it interesting that I have not seen much discussion on exactly what point and time does the X get executed on a kick.

 

[MJS]

Hello, There are NO science or real solid FACTS that Kata training is a big benifit to learning real self-defence for the streets!!!

And this comes from someone who trains at a school with little emphasis on kata, correct?

Today this is rare to see this type of Kata training and with so many kata's ? NO sure?

And you know this how? I guess you're not reading these threads too well, because I could pick out quite a few people on this thread alone that have an in-depth knowledge of kata.

IF kata's where so effective in training? ...How come you do not see this is others sports...or FBI training...or seals training? ...or our own military self-defense programs?

Then if you don't like kata, don't train it!!!! You repeat yourself over and over. It gets old hearing the same thing. Just because you don't do it, just because you don't understand it, does not mean that there are others around that love kata, understand kata, and can make kata work!

NO proof of kata's effectives for the streets? ....The truth will be known by your own students trying to protect themselves on the streets....using the forms of kata? .....where fights are never like a kata fight!

Ahh..the magic word...proof!! Sorry but I don't walk around with a video camera. However, if you took the moves of kata, yes, they can be broken down into self defense techniques, so I'm sorry to say, but you are wrong here. Then again, if you don't understand kata, and apparently you don't, you would never know this.

Aloha .....One day? ...I may be proven wrong?

Actually you already have been proven wrong I'm afraid...many times.

 

[still learning]

Hello, War of words .....anyone can win......when science proves with technical data.....even this can be dismiss...depends on how the reseach was done and if done with fairly!

Best way to learn is full contact and with realism.....

Even soldiers who train before going into actual combat....says the training at home is NOT the same as the REAL COMBAT!

Cause anything goes....NO rules by the enemy!

"X" blocks are taught and use in Kata's .....we just have to accept the fact...and do it that way.....even if we do not like blocking that way!..because we are ''sheeps" ...following the way? ...or path of kata's...

In most of our fights we will use the top 20% of our techniques and use it 80% of the time.....the rest of the 80% of techniques or tools we learn...will be use on 20% of the time!

the 80/20 rules for alot things .....in business the top 20% of products will create 80% of sales..and 80% of the other products will create 20% of sales

Watch any fights....you will see only a handful of techniques use punches and kicks....NOT much others techniques use....

"X" block good to know about? ....it may work? ....just another tool in the bottom 80% of tools in a fight which maybe use in the group of 20% use!

There are many things taught in martial arts ....so many of them you wonder if one can use them (techniques in kata's) for the real fighting like that on the streets of survival?

Bruce Lee said: take what is useful ...disguard the uselessness...

Wonder why people learn the uselessness of certain moves for todays world? ...is it because that is the way it is? ...traditions' or sheeps?

 

[Cirdan]

Since we are back where we started still_not_learning I suggest that you start reading this and the other Kata thread from the start again. When finished do it agan. And again. Serves the same purpose as you reposting the same statements and us trying to explain ad naseum. Who knows, maybe eventually you will pick something up. I`m done talking to the wall.

 

[morph4me]

:deadhorse

 

[MJS]

Sigh...once again..its really very simple SL. If you like kata, do it. If you don't, then don't do it! You're harping on one small part of training, acting as if its the end all be all of training. News flash...it isn't!! Kata is a small part of the puzzle, just like kicking is, just like punching, boxing drills, grappling, stand up, clinch, weapons, etc.

 

[still learning]

Sigh...once again..its really very simple SL. If you like kata, do it. If you don't, then don't do it! You're harping on one small part of training, acting as if its the end all be all of training. News flash...it isn't!! Kata is a small part of the puzzle, just like kicking is, just like punching, boxing drills, grappling, stand up, clinch, weapons, etc.

Hello, Glad you agree? ...KATA IS A SMALL PART OF THE PUZZLE...and not consider a major role in learning MARTIAL ARTS!

KATA's is a great way to teach beginners...as one progress the kata should envolve into a NON restricted form of training...unlimited..free forming...anything goes of self..development...

meaning as one pass the beginning...one should process on their own free form kata movements...NON restricted....each makes his own and changes as the wind blows....like a street fight...unlimited attacks, anything goes...always changing....

Kata is just a small part...good for beginners...fighting for your life on the streets....is anything goes..no rules...always changing...and can be never ending.....(two minutes is a life time) .......

Yes I am not a fan of Kata...it does have it's place...BUT should not be consider the utimate training tool......good for beginners..

Read up on this when Kata was taught in Okinawa elementary schools...by a karate teacher...? . .....and how it was later taught to older students as a form of training......today....some believe it is the only way to train?

Thank-you...you have brought out many things to look at...in other ways....

The progress of learning martial arts...is ever changing......the methods, the teachings.....the future holds the truths........Aloha

PS: S/L...is just a tiny part of the discussions, trying to share other point of view.......

 

[MJS]

Hello, Glad you agree? ...KATA IS A SMALL PART OF THE PUZZLE...and not consider a major role in learning MARTIAL ARTS!

KATA's is a great way to teach beginners...as one progress the kata should envolve into a NON restricted form of training...unlimited..free forming...anything goes of self..development...

meaning as one pass the beginning...one should process on their own free form kata movements...NON restricted....each makes his own and changes as the wind blows....like a street fight...unlimited attacks, anything goes...always changing....

Kata is just a small part...good for beginners...fighting for your life on the streets....is anything goes..no rules...always changing...and can be never ending.....(two minutes is a life time) .......

Yes I am not a fan of Kata...it does have it's place...BUT should not be consider the utimate training tool......good for beginners..

Read up on this when Kata was taught in Okinawa elementary schools...by a karate teacher...? . .....and how it was later taught to older students as a form of training......today....some believe it is the only way to train?

Thank-you...you have brought out many things to look at...in other ways....

The progress of learning martial arts...is ever changing......the methods, the teachings.....the future holds the truths........Aloha

PS: S/L...is just a tiny part of the discussions, trying to share other point of view.......

Glad you found some use in my post SL. I think the difference between you and I though, is that while I don't focus 100% of my training time on kata, I still am able to pull out some applications to it. I get the feeling that you're not doing this. Not sure if you know it or not, but take Short 2 from the Parker system. The first move is an inward block, followed by an outward knife hard strike, with the same hand. Applications for defense: Against a single or double hand lapel grab. Another application for defense: A right or left punch.

So you see, just that little move and I came up with a few different applications.

Like I said...if you want to train it, then train it. If you don't, then don't. Some will train it more than others. Some will find more value in it than others. I find value in it, but I also have other aspects of my art to work on too.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Many years ago ...long time...ok a few years ago..while learning Kata's....if one got into a real fight and try to use the traditional karate and kata way of fighing....

Most likely....NOT here to talk about it.....the deep stances, and long blocks and punches...NOT sure if it would work on the streets....

Question is what we are learning today and what is being taught? ....for those students who believe their Sensi? WILL IT WORK FOR STREET FIGHTS? ...just go to You tube and watch a few of them?

answer lies in the skill of the beholder and those who are lucky too!

ARE WE BEING TAUGHT....the right things..the in the correct way...for a real fight?

or is there alot of useless....tools? ..movements ..like in kata's?

Thank-you..MJS.....Aloha ....

PS: No two fights will be the same...meaning..no one knows what will work for the next one....so we have to prepare ourselves...for everything....

best to have a few good tools..to master...than a jack of all trades...

 

[MJS]

Hello, Many years ago ...long time...ok a few years ago..while learning Kata's....if one got into a real fight and try to use the traditional karate and kata way of fighing....

Well, I think that we've beat this horse a few times already, but hey, whats one more. I don't think that anyone has said that you will use a kata in the same fashion that you would fight in. IMHO, I think this is where you may be getting confused. Think of a kata this way...think of it as a bunch of techniques. Now, just like all of our other empty hand defenses that we have, depending on what is being thrown at us, we select the correct response. The same applies to kata.

Most likely....NOT here to talk about it.....the deep stances, and long blocks and punches...NOT sure if it would work on the streets....

I know I've started a discussion on something similar here in the past. Something along the lines of whether or not TMAs need to update themselves. Now, while there may be deep stances in the kata, it does not mean that those same stances can't be shortened, thus giving a more practical application.

Question is what we are learning today and what is being taught? ....for those students who believe their Sensi? WILL IT WORK FOR STREET FIGHTS? ...just go to You tube and watch a few of them?

Please, please tell me you're not watching youtube and using that as a deciding factor as to what works/does not work?? But hey, you can do what you want, but for myself, I'll go another route. I want to know what works for ME, not what works for someone else. Just because someone can make something work, doesn't mean I can make it work and vice versa. But like I said, you're free to train how you want. Will anything ever work? Who knows...but the best we can do is train hard, train alive and hope for the best.

ARE WE BEING TAUGHT....the right things..the in the correct way...for a real fight?

Well SL, this is why I always say that its very important to always evaluate your training. Everyone should have a goal, something that they want to get out of their training. If they're not getting it, or certain things are lacking, then you should seek out a source where you can get that training.

 

[JadeDragon3]

IMO X blocks suck. The best defense against a kick IMO is stepping in and merely deflecting it to the side or simply just not be there when he kicks you. Move out of the way of the kick. When his (opponent) kick is returning is the time that he is off balance and is vulnerable for counter attack. Or as soon as the kicking foot is back on the ground sweep that leg/foot with a front leg check followed up with a side kick (same leg). This is all done in one move. Shaolin Do teaches the X block as well and I have never been to "hip" on that type block. I've seen a lot of SD students use it. Not that I would bash Shaolin Do Karate becauseLord knows enough people have done that already......LOL.

 

[exile]

IMO X blocks suck. The best defense against a kick IMO is stepping in and merely deflecting it to the side or simply just not be there when he kicks you....I've seen a lot of SD students use it. Not that I would bash Shaolin Do Karate becauseLord knows enough people have done that already......LOL.

I've seen realistic, practical bukai for many kata that contain a so-called X-block... and not one of them interprets the movement as a blocking move. Almost always, the move is part of a pin or lock, and is a controlling move; in some bunkai, one of the crossed arms is gripping the attacker and the other is striking from below—exactly as in the case of so-called down blocks, again virtually never applied as actually blocks in any realistic scenario, where the retration hand is a hikite contolling move pulling the attacker in and the down block is a strike to the attacker's temple, neck, collarbone or groin, depending on whether the preceding moves have forced the attacker's upper body down or not. As Kane & Wilder point out in their landmark book, The Way of Kata, practical bunkai virtually never apply movements traditionally described as blocks as actual blocking moves. And you (all) might be interested in Iain Abernethy's comments here:

The "x-block" is perhaps one of the most obviously flawed techniques should it be applied as a block. The most common modern interpretation of the movement is thrusting both arms downward to stop a kick or low punch. It is highly unlikely that this would work. Even if we do manage to get our arms to the opponent's striking limb, it leaves the head dangerously exposed and, in the case of a kick, it is very likely to result in damage to the blocker's arms. It is very unlikely that the warriors who formulated the kata would have even considered the use of such a technique. So if they weren't using the motion as a block, what where they using it for?

As we'll see, the motion now labelled as "x-block" has a number of differing applications depending upon the exact way in which the technique is performed and the context of the kata (what moves are before and after it). One of the first uses we'll look at is using the "x-block" to strangle an opponent....​

(pay attention to the accompanying photos in the article!) This is something which is kind of frustrating: people ignore the kaisai no genri, the general method of deciphering the combat applications encoded in kata movements; they instead follow Itosu's disguising labels for kihon moves—which, as he himself insisted on, was necessary to package karate for grade school use in the Okinawan children's curriculum—and then complain that the moves are ineffective! This is kind of like trying to use a metal stapler as a hammer and then complaining that not only is this hammer weird-looking, but it's really lousy at driving nails in. Well, yeah!! :lol:

The upshot... and I'm thinking of the OP here, 100%... don't blame the kata because you haven't learned the skill of interpreting the movements correctly (again, see Abernethy's comments in the link I've provided).

 

[Doc_Jude]

The upshot... and I'm thinking of the OP here, 100%... don't blame the kata because you haven't learned the skill of interpreting the movements correctly (again, see Abernethy's comments in the link I've provided).

If the Dog Brothers are teaching X-block applications to deal with realistic knife attacks, then there is something to dealing with attacks while holding your arms in a seemingly crossed formation. I would say that most of the flack that the X-block gets is from faulty execution or the lack of dynamic off-line footwork. Also, there is no reason to stick in a down X-block once a kick has been intercepted when the front hand of the X can come up immediately to handle a punch if not engaged in a grapple. Folks need to learn how to use the X-block properly instead of jumping on the "I hate techiques that I don't understand" bandwagon.