Breakdown Of The SKK Katas

[MJS]

I've always felt that students will get more out of their kata practice if they understand the moves. Simply running thru the moves without knowing what they are is in essence, learning only half the kata IMO. What is the move? Is it an armbar, wrist release, etc. These are the types of things that the student needs to know.

I thought that we could start off with a kata, and give some examples of exactly what is being done.

Lets start with 1 pinan, and build from there, seeing that this is a pretty basic kata.

Now, when I first learned this kata, it was explained to me that we were just blocking kicks and counter punching. So...turning to our left, left downward block, half moon forward and right punch. Sure, that is one option, but that can't be the only one. One that I thought of:

The opponent is standing in front of us, executing a left wrist grab with their left hand. We begin to move our hand counter clock wise, counter grabbing their hand, assiting with our right on their elbow. We turn to the left, bringing them into an arm bar, as we step forward executing a right punch to the head.

A viable technique? Possibly, but IMO, its something more than stating that all we're doing is blocking front kicks.

Any other suggestions?:ultracool

Mike

 

[DavidCC]

This has been on my mind for some time.

I started experimenting with different pieces of our basic forms - pinan 1-3, looking for other applications of the moves.

And I found some interesting stuff too.

But I realized that this was simply stuff I made up, and not some "secrets of the masters" hidden the form - becasue the pinan were designed to be basic drills for school children!

So I stopped looking at them, and switched instead to the Katas created by Pesare/Gascon.

Lots more variey, lots of stuff to play with. I found even more interesting ideas. but again I have to question the validity of it, as opposed to going through this same exercise with forms that really DO have "hidden" levels of technique. (such as watch Mr. Oyata with Naihanchi)

So, I think this is an interesting exercise to get your student's to think freely and not be bound by technique. But as far as finding anything special hidden in the pinan series... I don't know...

I hope that I am wrong about this...

If you disagree, please, get deep on me

 

[DavidCC]

its something more than stating that all we're doing is blocking front kicks.

Any other suggestions?:ultracool

Mike

blocking body punches?

 

[IWishToLearn]

I've always felt that students will get more out of their kata practice if they understand the moves. Simply running thru the moves without knowing what they are is in essence, learning only half the kata IMO. What is the move? Is it an armbar, wrist release, etc. These are the types of things that the student needs to know.

I thought that we could start off with a kata, and give some examples of exactly what is being done.

Lets start with 1 pinan, and build from there, seeing that this is a pretty basic kata.

Now, when I first learned this kata, it was explained to me that we were just blocking kicks and counter punching. So...turning to our left, left downward block, half moon forward and right punch. Sure, that is one option, but that can't be the only one. One that I thought of:

The opponent is standing in front of us, executing a left wrist grab with their left hand. We begin to move our hand counter clock wise, counter grabbing their hand, assiting with our right on their elbow. We turn to the left, bringing them into an arm bar, as we step forward executing a right punch to the head.

A viable technique? Possibly, but IMO, its something more than stating that all we're doing is blocking front kicks.

Any other suggestions?:ultracool

Mike

In practicing my forms - I learned all 5 Peians and both resulting Kankus. The first move from Peian 1 is the turn left, low block. I've seen it taught as both a low block for a kick and a middle block for a punch. I've also explored the possibility that it could be instead a downward outward backfist strike coupled with what in Kenpo we would call a "cover" instead of rotating into a "front stance", amongst other things.

 

[kosho]

Take a deeper look into this form. as you do the first movement . down block 1/2 moon and punch... spin 180 and down block and 1/2 moon and punch.

NOW lets say you did the same thing this time you punch just past the attackers punching arm as you spin and make the next move 180 spin you
are now going to throw the person as you make the move.
because you are now in the exact same place just now are closer and have the body angles to do so. try it you will see what i mean....
there are all kinds of throw in the forms we learned, just never shown them but all of the hidden movements are there you just need to open the eyes,,, and that can really be hard at times,,, my 2 cents
Kosho

 

[LawDog]

MJS,
The form has many key principles within it. I will first start with the footwork.
Halfmooning:
This footwork is not linear, it contains 2 small laterial movements. While you half moon towards your opponent you will shift towards one side of your opponents center line then back to your starting center line position. This will change the target doorways on both you and your opponent.
Pivoting:
A pivot is a two directional move. When you pivot you will move towards one direction and at the same time you will move towards one side.
*Example, a full pivot to the rear. The direction that you are facing is 12:00, execute a full pivot to the rear, you will move one zone forward towards the 06:00 position and a full zone to the side of the original 06:00 line.
Timing / Rhythm developement.
Depending on the system, either -
*The first block or strike should be completed when to moving foot roots.
*The first block or strike is released after the moving foot roots.
These timing motions should be constant throughout the form.
There's more, another time.
:ultracool

 

[MJS]

Great replies! Keep them coming! As I said, unfortunately, when I was first learning these katas, the breakdowns were never taught. This is sad, because IMO, its like teaching the student half the material. I took it upon myself to start breaking down some of the moves. Later on, I was fortunate to come across an instructor that I trained with for a while (who's actually a member on this forum) and he was able to further breakdown the movements.

Lawdog: Great stuff! Thanks! Looking forward to more.

Mike

 

[LawDog]

MJS,
Now add the exhale portion of the breathing into the timing/rhythm sequence.
:ultracool

 

[graychuan]

Mutiple Attack Movement

Anyone ever notice that in 1st pinion one always turns into the 'middle' of the form when pivoting. If you visualize the 5 or 8 attackers( depending on how you look at it) you pretty much always pivot(90,180 or 270) so that the least amount of poeple(if any) are at your back and your area of vision always can scan the other potential attackers before you engage the next one in the form.

 

[MJS]

Just a note:

You will notice some posts are missing. I created a new thread here to continue the discussion of the history of SKK katas. I'd like this thread to be reserved strictly for application of the various movements.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[kidswarrior]

In keeping with Mike's returning this thread to technique/application focus, I started re-thinking Pinan 1 from the beginning (I don't even practice this anymore, but even so this is a good exercise for me). Don't know about other strains of SK, but I learned that the Pinans begin with forearms straight up meeting in the middle of the body, followed by a knuckle roll downward and ending with forearms basically in front of and parallel to legs. Anyone else do this?

Anyway, that's always bothered me. What's that all about? Well, just occured to me in other tech's that's a trap, so why not in Pinan 1 salute also. Example: this 'opening' is not the beginning at all, but a snapshot of the middle of a technique, as in: before form began, I kicked him in low trunk (groin/abdomen--anywhere below the waist), which bent him over. Then, his head is right there for me to trap with my 'salute', and the knuckle roll is me rolling his head to the ground.

Am I on a different planet here, or is this the kind of thing we want to explore? I don't expect all my ideas to survive under scrutiny, but maybe that's half the fun, eh? :wink2:

 

[14 Kempo]

In keeping with Mike's returning this thread to technique/application focus, I started re-thinking Pinan 1 from the beginning (I don't even practice this anymore, but even so this is a good exercise for me). Don't know about other strains of SK, but I learned that the Pinans begin with forearms straight up meeting in the middle of the body, followed by a knuckle roll downward and ending with forearms basically in front of and parallel to legs. Anyone else do this?

Anyway, that's always bothered me. What's that all about? Well, just occured to me in other tech's that's a trap, so why not in Pinan 1 salute also. Example: this 'opening' is not the beginning at all, but a snapshot of the middle of a technique, as in: before form began, I kicked him in low trunk (groin/abdomen--anywhere below the waist), which bent him over. Then, his head is right there for me to trap with my 'salute', and the knuckle roll is me rolling his head to the ground.

Am I on a different planet here, or is this the kind of thing we want to explore? I don't expect all my ideas to survive under scrutiny, but maybe that's half the fun, eh? :wink2:

It can be a trap, that's one of the applications I have for that particular movement and there are others. The salutation for pinan#1 and #2 can be a defensive technique against a bear hug from the rear, with arms trapped. Here's how, step to the side slightly, lower your center of gravity, expand your chest to create a bit of space, use your arms to release or further loosen the grip. Turn 90 degrees and apply a hammer fist to the groin (this is seen as a block in most applications), turn another 90 degrees and deliver a front punch ... there, another possible technique. Yes, I turned an extra 90 degrees, but nowhere does it say that martial arts techniques need to be exact ... just my 2 cents.

 

[kidswarrior]

It can be a trap, that's one of the applications I have for that particular movement and there are others. The salutation for pinan#1 and #2 can be a defensive technique against a bear hug from the rear, with arms trapped. Here's how, step to the side slightly, lower your center of gravity, expand your chest to create a bit of space, use your arms to release or further loosen the grip. Turn 90 degrees and apply a hammer fist to the groin (this is seen as a block in most applications), turn another 90 degrees and deliver a front punch ... there, another possible technique. Yes, I turned an extra 90 degrees, but nowhere does it say that martial arts techniques need to be exact ... just my 2 cents.

Great interpretation!

 

[14 Kempo]

Great interpretation!

Here's another ... salutation. Turn 90 degrees counter-clockwise, passing through a cat stance, to face your opponent, step out with the left and apply a #8 block to a kick, trap the leg by continuing the blocking movement. You are now to the inside of your opponent. Right halfmoon in, either applying a punch, or placing your right foot behind the opponents left heel and applying a punch or simply a push to take the opponent off thier feet. I believe this is a more advanced movement, being that you are inside, a punch is coming and one of your hands/arms is tied up, you must move fast to apply this technique. I don't teach this in the early stages.

 

[LawDog]

14_Kempo,
Are those from the FV system or new USSD system?

 

[14 Kempo]

14_Kempo,
Are those from the FV system or new USSD system?

I would have to say USSD, cause that's where I am now ... and to be completely honest, when I was studying previously, I didn't care what I was doing as far as forms went, I was just doing it. Now I take the time to not only ask the questions, but to tear down what I'm doing and why.

Hope that answers your question ...

 

[LawDog]

14_Kempo
Yes it does, thanks. Keep up the good work.
:ultracool

 

[14 Kempo]

Here's another one that I thought was pretty cool ... Pinan #3 ... there is a part where a person turns to face 6 o'clock, bringing thier hands in crane's beaks back to protect the kidneys, then right front ball kick, turn 90 degrees ccw land in horse stance. Use wing block, draw to cat stance, lung out and strike simultaneously with right back two-knuckle to the face and left tiger claw to the groin.

Application for double crane's beaks at the kidneys: Think of someone behind you holding your wrists. Kick the person in front, pivot, blicking a strike also from the person in front. Then roll your hands out of the hold as you use that resistance to add striking force to the finishing simultaneous strike.

Hard to explain, hope that gives you a picture ... let me know.

 

[kidswarrior]

Here's another one that I thought was pretty cool ... Pinan #3 ... there is a part where a person turns to face 6 o'clock, bringing thier hands in crane's beaks back to protect the kidneys, then right front ball kick, turn 90 degrees ccw land in horse stance. Use wing block, draw to cat stance, lung out and strike simultaneously with right back two-knuckle to the face and left tiger claw to the groin.

Application for double crane's beaks at the kidneys: Think of someone behind you holding your wrists. Kick the person in front, pivot, blicking a strike also from the person in front. Then roll your hands out of the hold as you use that resistance to add striking force to the finishing simultaneous strike.

Hard to explain, hope that gives you a picture ... let me know.

No, you explained quite well. Good 'hidden/additional meaning' for the crane's beaks at that point, which never really made a lot of sense to me.

 

[14 Kempo]

Again, in Pinan#3, the portion just after the salutation and opening movements, facing 3 o'clock, feet together, cup and saucer on the right side. Attacker comes from your left. You step out with your left foot, delivering a left rolling backfist to the nose, right hand guards the left ribcage. Turn 90 degrees ccw and half moon in with right foot, apply a bridged spearhand plke to same attackers groin. With your right hand, sweep the attackers right ankle, pulling him off-balance, turn 270 degrees ccw, moving the right foot, deliver a hammer fist to the attackers left temple. Again with the right foot, turn 90 degrees ccw applying a thrust punch to the groin. This is all done against a single opponent.