The X-blocks

[Bill Mattocks]

I was doing kata today and I realized that the opening move in Seuinchin (middle-body block, two arms), the X-block in the opening of Chinto, and the double-overhead block in Seisan (and also Chinto) are all the same block, just variations on a theme. However, I could be imagining things. This is with regard to Isshin-Ryu, BTW.

In Seuinchin, normally I am thinking about defending against a double-handed collar grab by my opponent. But while doing it, I realized I could be blocking a straight punch to the face if I use the 'crossover' while coming up as if it were the same as the X-block in the opening move of Chinto. And I've been shown several times that the double-overhead block in Seisan also crosses the hands subtly and can be used the same way; to block a straight punch to the face.

So what say you Isshin-Ryu and similar ryu karateka?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I believe the purpose to train X block is to train both arms at the same time. In combat, you should use only one arm to block. If you use X block to block a

- punch, your groin will be open.
- kick, your head will be open.

 

[seasoned]

There are three levels of kata application.

Basic
Intermediate
Advanced

In all three levels, the kata is always preformed the same way because of the underlying principles being taught. Breath, movement and structure. Once the principles are adhered to, the techniques will take on the three levels, pertaining to who you are teaching it to.
All movements of Okinawan GoJu involve moving off of center line, and Seiunchin, as with other kata, is no different. Initially, the right foot moves forward 45 degrees into a Shiko dachi and both hands are chambered. Once in Shiko dachi, both hands move straight up at the same time to a spear hand strike and are placed back to back as they reach chin level. The elbows are close into the body, and the fingers are pointing up, now both hands preform an augmented down block.

At the basic level someone has double grabbed your collar, as you re-grab their wrists from underneath, step 45 degrees forward, pulling their arms down breaking their balance. At the basic level a head butt and/or knee strike is preformed.

I know there are slightly different interpretations depending on styles, this is problem one of many.

 

[seasoned]

I believe the purpose to train X block is to train both arms at the same time. In combat, you should use only one arm to block. If you use X block to block a

- punch, your groin will be open.
- kick, your head will be open.

Also what appears to be an x block can be used to reach up for a double collar garb/choke.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Also what appears to be an x block can be used to reach up for a double collar garb/choke.

If you are talking about to:

- use your right hand to grab your opponent's right wrist under his left arm,
- use your left arm to reach his left shoulder under his right arm,
- spin your body to your right, and
- use your left arm to put pressure on his right elbow joint,

that will be a good X block application. Your X block should have right fist closer to you and left palm away from you instead (or reverse).

 

[punisher73]

I believe the purpose to train X block is to train both arms at the same time. In combat, you should use only one arm to block. If you use X block to block a

- punch, your groin will be open.
- kick, your head will be open.

My opinion is that you are missing some valuable lessons if you think that x blocks are only put in kata to train both arms at the same time.

I was taught that the X block isn't so much a block as introducing students to the idea of limb control. As soon as the "x" makes contact one of your hands now transitions into a controlling technique. So for using an x block on a kick, you now transition into controlling the ankle for a break or a takedown.

Another "misuse" of the x-block that I see is using it as a hard block against an overhead attack (especially against a knife). Everyone talks about how you just pull the hand back and cut him. That is true if you only stop with motion, but if you defend with that and immediately use it as a redirect you can now have more control of the arm.

As far as the other "double blocks" there are various applications that can also be done. As Mr. Mattocks pointed out, I can use the two middle blocks against a lapel grab or an attempted bear hug. I can also change the focus onto the hammerfist/knifehand and upper forearm and use it to enter into and jam the attackers shoulders to move him back and stop his attack (think of people when they push/shove only with closed strikes). Another one same idea, on a roundhouse attack, one arm is striking into the bicep and the other is striking up into the neck/jaw area of the attacker.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I was taught that the X block isn't so much a block as introducing students to the idea of limb control. As soon as the "x" makes contact one of your hands now transitions into a controlling technique. So for using an x block on a kick, you now transition into controlling the ankle for a break or a takedown.

Yes, that was my teaching as well.

Originally, it was shown to me as the obvious bunkai for the X-block used at the beginning of Chinto.

My point was that it begins to appear to me that the first move in Seiunchin is the same kind of movement; but the first bunkai was defense against a double lapel-grab. I was performing that kata and thinking about that move and what else it could be used for when it suddenly seemed to me that it could also be used the same way the X-block in Chinto is; although the first move in Seiunchin is not a clear and obvious 'X-block', the hands do cross slightly, and so I imagined it could be used as if it were an X-block.

It was later in my training that it was pointed out to me that the double-overhead block in Seisan also requires the hands to cross slightly; otherwise a straight punch to the face would clearly get through (and how often are you going to be attacked by someone with a double-overhead chop, which is the first stated bunkai for that move?). Since the single overhead block requires crossing the body's centerline, it seems only reasonable that a double overhead block would require a means of crossing the centerline as well, or it doesn't cover attacks to the center. That makes the double-overhead block in Seisan also a kind of an X-block; at least that's what I'm thinking at the moment.

Another "misuse" of the x-block that I see is using it as a hard block against an overhead attack (especially against a knife). Everyone talks about how you just pull the hand back and cut him. That is true if you only stop with motion, but if you defend with that and immediately use it as a redirect you can now have more control of the arm.

Yes, that is standard practice in our dojo when we perform the jodan tegata uke, jodan tsuki (open hand upper body block, followed by an uppercut). We practice grasping the arm after stopping or deflecting it and then redirecting the motion to our obi, bringing the opponent's face to meet our rising uppercut with the other hand. We have lots of alternative bunkai for that movement, including stiking the nerve cluster in the upper arm of the attacking arm, moving underneath as a judoka would, retaining control of the arm, and then twisting to bring the opponent's face down to obi level, where we kick it.

We also practice a variety of soft blocks to overhead strikes to keep the opponent from automatically firing his other fist, including a rising 'chicken head' block, which although not technically Isshin-Ryu, is quite effective, I think.

As far as the other "double blocks" there are various applications that can also be done. As Mr. Mattocks pointed out, I can use the two middle blocks against a lapel grab or an attempted bear hug. I can also change the focus onto the hammerfist/knifehand and upper forearm and use it to enter into and jam the attackers shoulders to move him back and stop his attack (think of people when they push/shove only with closed strikes). Another one same idea, on a roundhouse attack, one arm is striking into the bicep and the other is striking up into the neck/jaw area of the attacker.

Outstanding, thank you.

I realize that I am not 'inventing' anything new; this is the part of karate that some call 'secret' but it's not really secret; it just becomes obvious over a period of time, and I can only hope that I'm moving in the right direction and bunkai is finally starting to open itself up to me a bit instead of me having to be told what it is and then having the lighbulb go on. I'm really just kind of wondering if I am on the right track here with seeing the various blocks described as variations on the same theme as the obvious and open 'X-block' in the opening move of Chinto.

 

[WC_lun]

In our Wing Chun system, we have the x-blocks at the beginning of the first form, but would never use it in actual combat because it opens up too many gates. In our system, the "x-blocks" are actually just defining our space. To each his own though. Different systems use things in different ways. As long as something doesn't get your butt kicked, it is all good!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In our Wing Chun system, we have the x-blocks at the beginning of the first form, but would never use it in actual combat because it opens up too many gates. In our system, the "x-blocks" are actually just defining our space. To each his own though. Different systems use things in different ways. As long as something doesn't get your butt kicked, it is all good!

Does one hand never cross another for any specific purpose, then?

One I was just thinking of; in Seiunchin kata, at several points in the kata, we step in and deliver a lower body block with one arm, then we step out and deliver a lower body block with the other arm. However, one of the possible bunkai for this is that we deliver the first block and the opponent grabs our arm at the wrist. We than spin out and deliver the second block as an "X" over the wrist being held, knocking the opponent's hand off. Not an obvious interpretation as it is in the opening of Chinto where we clearly hold our arms up in an 'X', but still (I think), an X-block. Or an X-strike, if you think about it that way - we're delivering a blow by following the arm that is grabbed until it impacts the hand of the person holding it, then continuing through as if we were 'wiping it off'.

While there are lots of effective ways to escape a wrist grab, that one seems to work really well. Nothing like that in WC?

 

[WC_lun]

2 replies off into the ether of the internet. One more try

Wing Chun has a technique that is similiar, but not the same. X blocks are an anathema to our concepts and principles. Wing Chun has something called 2 line defence. I'll try to explain in a very simplistic and basic way If a person's hands are out from thier body at an equal distance, then he will only have one line of defense. Once that one line is defeated, the body is open for attack. If a person has his hands out at an unequal distance, then if the first line is overcome, the second line is in place to pick up the incomming threat. Good Wing Chun players will rarely break this "rule" even when attacking or employing chin na. Of course being Wing Chun this rule is interconnected with other concepts and principles such as centerline theory, triangulation, six gate theory, replacement hands, sinking the bridge, etc.

 

[mook jong man]

In our lineage of Wing Chun the lower and upper x block type movements in the forms define the centerline where the wrists cross.
There are also many applications , mostly of the single arm variety.
But there is one that uses both arms , it is a counter to when you have been caught with your arms down and someone is trying to grab you around the neck with both hands and pull you into a knee strike.

Using your downward x block you rotate the backs of your hands toward yourself and strike down at a 45 degree angle into his bladder region with the edges of both your palm heels in a type of double palm strike action.
The contact points should be the edge of your hand and edge of the palm heel

As with all things Wing Chun , attack and defence are inseparable so that as you are attacking with your downward x block it will also provide a defence against his rising knee.

It is a powerful strike especially if you use his energy to help you step in as pulls on your neck , in training don't hit the bladder aim for your partners gut.
Done correctly your partner should end up with some nice horizontal red stripes across his gut.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

2 replies off into the ether of the internet. One more try

Wing Chun has a technique that is similiar, but not the same. X blocks are an anathema to our concepts and principles. Wing Chun has something called 2 line defence. I'll try to explain in a very simplistic and basic way If a person's hands are out from thier body at an equal distance, then he will only have one line of defense. Once that one line is defeated, the body is open for attack. If a person has his hands out at an unequal distance, then if the first line is overcome, the second line is in place to pick up the incomming threat. Good Wing Chun players will rarely break this "rule" even when attacking or employing chin na. Of course being Wing Chun this rule is interconnected with other concepts and principles such as centerline theory, triangulation, six gate theory, replacement hands, sinking the bridge, etc.

OK, thanks for the replies. I guess it's a very different philosophy, then. I have two hands, I use them both when required. Same with two feet, although of course gravity has something to say about that.

Just as an example, if I use both hands in a defense move, but turn the attacker's body, he cannot engage me with his other hand. I have nothing to fear. If I unbalance them, same thing. If I block in such a way as to avoid drawing an automatic punch in return, I may be able to strike before the opponent's second blow. I mean I don't just toss my hands out and leave them there; they are doing something, or they are returning to be used again. One of the codes we use, and my personal favorite, is "A person's unbalance is the same as a weight." It doesn't matter what I'm using to defend myself - one hand, two hands, whatever. As long as I have put them in a position from which they cannot strike me; either by unbalancing them or by turning them so that they cannot reach me.

But all respect to your system; I am not attacking it. I just think we see things differently; and of course, I am only a student of my own art.

 

[punisher73]

I realize that I am not 'inventing' anything new; this is the part of karate that some call 'secret' but it's not really secret; it just becomes obvious over a period of time, and I can only hope that I'm moving in the right direction and bunkai is finally starting to open itself up to me a bit instead of me having to be told what it is and then having the lighbulb go on. I'm really just kind of wondering if I am on the right track here with seeing the various blocks described as variations on the same theme as the obvious and open 'X-block' in the opening move of Chinto.

I think so. One thing is that katas (especially in Isshin-ryu) were taught to teach a specific combat scenario and ideas surrounding that idea. So exploring those ideas in that scenario is good and if you read the top "traditional" masters in karate. They will often make mention of finding your own applications from the kata. If we go back to Seiuchin, it was an "antigrappling" kata against types of grabs etc. Try the opening moves of dropping down into the shiko-dachi and bring up the arms along your centerline as your partner tries to put on a rear bear hug, and you will find that it defends it quite well.

Now what if it's a front two handchoke, or even a two handed rear choke. Take those initial hand moves and grab onto the attacker's thumbs and then as you bring them down in the double hammerfist postion, you break the grip and the thumb.

Now lets look at the next set of moves. You do the ridgehand block to the side (movement where palm is up) followed by a spearhand. Now picture that as a wrist grab (right hand to right hand). You bring the hand up into that position, but instead of doing a spearhand with the left turn it into a palm to the elbow as you bring back your right hand and now you have a arm takedown. If you are familiar with "ikkyo" from Aikido it will look very similar.

Are these the original applications? Who knows, but I think the biggest thing is finding tools that fit the movements and can work. I only draw the line on applications where it is "dishonest". Such as saying the cross over step from Naihanchi is really a hidden triangle choke from your back (yes, I have seen someone advertising that and selling it that way).

Sorry, kind of wandered a little bit. But, the crossing hands is many times a distinction by angle and distance of your hands. Even in the basic blocking exercises where one hand crosses the other, you are training a minor parrying movement before the major block.

 

[WC_lun]

Oh we definitely have our ideas on unbalancing the body. In fact, when you hear Sinking the Bridge that is what is being referred to. Also, because we have a 2 line defense does not mean that defense is static. If two hands at equal distance does the job, then that is what counts. Wing Chun just feels it is more effecient and safer to do the job with one hand...though that isn't entirely accurate either, since the hands do not work independant of the body.

I'm not dismissing what you do either. It is just two different systems, that train differently. For me, Wing Chun matches many of the ways I think of fighting. There is a lot more to it than the chain punching while stepping forward that some tend to think of when Wing Chun is mentioned. I also think a lot gets lost in the translation. Many of the things I describe a Wing Chun guy will understand immediately. Not because they are any better at martial arts, but because they already have experience of the Wing Chun framework...and already know what our school refers to as the Wing Chunese language.

For me, more than the differences in any styles is the question, "Does it work?" If the answer is yes, then all due respec and props for what you are doing.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Using your downward x block you rotate the backs of your hands toward yourself and strike down at a 45 degree angle into his bladder region with the edges of both your palm heels in a type of double palm strike action.
The contact points should be the edge of your hand and edge of the palm heel

We have what I believe is a very similar strike. It is used in several katas, but as you described this one, it's here:

Exactly at 20 seconds - the beginning of Naihanchi - we display a double-handed down block - imagine blocking a rising knee with it. However, although it is NOT displayed in the kata, the next move in bunkai (only) can be a double strike to the opponent's balance point - hip, spleen, general obi area, etc. One 'bounces' off the incoming knee and uses that force against the opponent, who currently has one leg off the ground anyway, and is probably leaning towards you (knee strikes often require it to achieve penetration). Even if the have their arms around your neck or shoulders to deliver the knee strike, it just makes them more vulnerable to being pushed off-balance by a strike to their center balance point. We might use the back of the hands, one reinforcing the other if you can visualize that. So the movement is the downward one you see in the video, but if you imagine the incoming knee being absorbed by using the arms as shock absorbers (not the shoulders), and then that upward motion immediately being transferred forward into the opponent, you can sort of 'see' it, I think.

Does that sound right?

We also have a number of reinforced down blocks in our kata (Chinto again) which I think could be used in the manner you described as well, now that I think about it. I'd have to figure out how the bunkai would work in that.

You see it above - the X-block upper body, and then a double block lower body after the double-kick.

FYI, these videos are not from my lineage, so they are not exactly the way we do them in my dojo, but close enough for the purpose of discussion, I think.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think so. One thing is that katas (especially in Isshin-ryu) were taught to teach a specific combat scenario and ideas surrounding that idea. So exploring those ideas in that scenario is good and if you read the top "traditional" masters in karate. They will often make mention of finding your own applications from the kata. If we go back to Seiuchin, it was an "antigrappling" kata against types of grabs etc. Try the opening moves of dropping down into the shiko-dachi and bring up the arms along your centerline as your partner tries to put on a rear bear hug, and you will find that it defends it quite well.

Now what if it's a front two handchoke, or even a two handed rear choke. Take those initial hand moves and grab onto the attacker's thumbs and then as you bring them down in the double hammerfist postion, you break the grip and the thumb.

Now lets look at the next set of moves. You do the ridgehand block to the side (movement where palm is up) followed by a spearhand. Now picture that as a wrist grab (right hand to right hand). You bring the hand up into that position, but instead of doing a spearhand with the left turn it into a palm to the elbow as you bring back your right hand and now you have a arm takedown. If you are familiar with "ikkyo" from Aikido it will look very similar.

Are these the original applications? Who knows, but I think the biggest thing is finding tools that fit the movements and can work. I only draw the line on applications where it is "dishonest". Such as saying the cross over step from Naihanchi is really a hidden triangle choke from your back (yes, I have seen someone advertising that and selling it that way).

Sorry, kind of wandered a little bit. But, the crossing hands is many times a distinction by angle and distance of your hands. Even in the basic blocking exercises where one hand crosses the other, you are training a minor parrying movement before the major block.

That's fascinating, thanks very much! Yes, we use the motion you described as bunkai in the next move of Seuinchin, in place of the 'basic' bunkai of a spear hand strike. It can also be seen as you describe in Sunsu if I understand it correctly (I am still learning Sunsu) when you stack hands before delivering the (no longer called) toe-rip kick. The bunkai I've been shown is just as you describe, I think. A grappling move of intercepting an incoming punch, and grasping the wrist and elbow of the incoming hand before twisting and offbalancing the opponent and then delivering the kick to their center. I can only imagine it would hurt like the dickens even in practice.

 

[mook jong man]

OK, thanks for the replies. I guess it's a very different philosophy, then. I have two hands, I use them both when required. Same with two feet, although of course gravity has something to say about that.

Just as an example, if I use both hands in a defense move, but turn the attacker's body, he cannot engage me with his other hand. I have nothing to fear. If I unbalance them, same thing. If I block in such a way as to avoid drawing an automatic punch in return, I may be able to strike before the opponent's second blow. I mean I don't just toss my hands out and leave them there; they are doing something, or they are returning to be used again. One of the codes we use, and my personal favorite, is "A person's unbalance is the same as a weight." It doesn't matter what I'm using to defend myself - one hand, two hands, whatever. As long as I have put them in a position from which they cannot strike me; either by unbalancing them or by turning them so that they cannot reach me.

But all respect to your system; I am not attacking it. I just think we see things differently; and of course, I am only a student of my own art.

In my lineage we can deflect a powerful straight punch with two hands , it is called a Seung Bong or "Double Bong Sau".
It is usually performed with a 45 degree pivot of the stance to both assist with the redirection and to off balance the attacker.

But it must be done on the outside of the attackers punching arm so we are on his blind side and not at risk of being hit by his other arm.

If we were to make a mistake and do it on the inside of his punching arm that would be termed "Inappropriate use of the Bong Sau".

Not the end of the world but it does mean you have to recovery very quickly indeed from that inside position in order to not get clocked by his other hand.

 

[WC_lun]

This just highlights that even in Wing Chun, there will be differences

On your double bong sau though, if you are on an angle addressing your attacker's centerline, aren't your hands at different distances in relationship between his body and yours? While perhaps this is a weakened structure, it still seems to be within the 2 line theory.

This has been an interesting discussion. I think it shows the spice that is the difference in training between us all, even fellow Wing Chun players. Not better or worse, but diffferent.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In my lineage we can deflect a powerful straight punch with two hands , it is called a Seung Bong or "Double Bong Sau".
It is usually performed with a 45 degree pivot of the stance to both assist with the redirection and to off balance the attacker.

But it must be done on the outside of the attackers punching arm so we are on his blind side and not at risk of being hit by his other arm.

If we were to make a mistake and do it on the inside of his punching arm that would be termed "Inappropriate use of the Bong Sau".

Not the end of the world but it does mean you have to recovery very quickly indeed from that inside position in order to not get clocked by his other hand.

Yes, I believe I know what you mean.

We practice a similar move in our self-defense exercises. Supposing a person throws a very typical (for Americans) overhand or roundhouse punch towards the face with his right arm. Lots of ways to deal with that, but as you described it, our analogue would be to step slightly to our left, and to use the left hand to 'pat' the attacker's right hand to our right. This turns their body slightly, redirects the punch towards empty air, and gives us the opportunity to use the right arm in a tegata barai (open hand side block) that assists the motion that the left hand started. By necessity, our arms cross over each other for a moment as this transfer happens. We would then try to lock onto the opponent's right arm at the wrist with our right arm, and pull sharply to our obi, which should have the effect of causing them to overextend their punch and lean forward, off-balance and away from us. We would then probably deliver a kick to the midsection or the face, since it might just be at obi level by then. But even if all we can manage is the first two moves, they are punching thin air away from us, and their body is turned such that their other side is useless to attack us with.

If I were to fight inside instead of outside, I'd have to handle it differently to avoid being hit with the opponent's other hand, of course. One way would be to meet his incoming right punch with a rising upper body block from my left, and then immediately stepping in and attacking his arm with a strong uppercut punch to the nerve cluster of the space between the bicep and bone on his attacking arm with my right arm. This would turn my body such that his left should be outside my frame; he might be able to club me on the back of the head, but if I can focus him on the pain in his arm, or bounce off of that and directly into a backfist to his face, he may find that not to be a viable option.

Another response to the same punch might be to turn my body sideways as we do in Naihanchi kata. I raise my left arm to deflect his incoming punch to whatever extent I need to, and use my body motion into his frame to propel my right punch into his body as we do in Naihanchi. His other arm is useless as it is completely behind me and my strike is to the solar plexus, which should keep my busy trying to breathe (and totally up in his grille, which I just love).

I like them all; and there are many more, of course. But the one you described sounds pretty familiar to me if I understand it correctly, and I like it very much.

 

[mook jong man]

We have what I believe is a very similar strike. It is used in several katas, but as you described this one, it's here:

Exactly at 20 seconds - the beginning of Naihanchi - we display a double-handed down block - imagine blocking a rising knee with it. However, although it is NOT displayed in the kata, the next move in bunkai (only) can be a double strike to the opponent's balance point - hip, spleen, general obi area, etc. One 'bounces' off the incoming knee and uses that force against the opponent, who currently has one leg off the ground anyway, and is probably leaning towards you (knee strikes often require it to achieve penetration). Even if the have their arms around your neck or shoulders to deliver the knee strike, it just makes them more vulnerable to being pushed off-balance by a strike to their center balance point. We might use the back of the hands, one reinforcing the other if you can visualize that. So the movement is the downward one you see in the video, but if you imagine the incoming knee being absorbed by using the arms as shock absorbers (not the shoulders), and then that upward motion immediately being transferred forward into the opponent, you can sort of 'see' it, I think.

Does that sound right?

We also have a number of reinforced down blocks in our kata (Chinto again) which I think could be used in the manner you described as well, now that I think about it. I'd have to figure out how the bunkai would work in that.

You see it above - the X-block upper body, and then a double block lower body after the double-kick.

FYI, these videos are not from my lineage, so they are not exactly the way we do them in my dojo, but close enough for the purpose of discussion, I think.

Looks a bit similar.

Ours is a bit of an emergency technique , we would probably prefer to do something else but we have been caught with our guard literally down and about to be pulled into knee strike.

We don't like to use two hands to defend if we can avoid it , because it can be a bit passive and a one -two type movement.
The highest form of skill in Wing Chun is to defend and attack in the one movement.
We prefer to defend and attack simultaneously , with one arm defending while the other arm and in some cases the leg attacks.

But if the circumstances dictate , due to say a large differential in size and strength between the combatants , then the Wing Chun person could use certain double arm deflections to defend/trap and then strike through using two movements.