Do you train against a real fight? ..punches/kicks flying fast and furious?

[still learning]

Hello, Have you notice many martial arts classes teach self-defense for the ONE punch or One kick type of defense only!

than we counter...most of these are done at a very slow or unrealistic speed. ...and most of these moves are told in advance..and we do them at slower speeds.

In the real world...these punches and kicks (any combintions) are coming fast, furious, and explosive! Like in a real fighting?

After watching many fights,boxers, MMA, tournaments figthing, and street figthing? .....it seems no does the one step block and counter like in practice?

Is it just me here? ...or will those actully stuff we learn will work once a fight starts?

Kempo training is famous for these one step attacks with counters that are mulitple hits,blocks type of defending back.

Yet in a real fight? ....one rarely or ever see someone fight back like that...even in Kempo tournaments?

Is what we learning? ...will work in the real world? ...for all situtions?

Aloha ( real fights never looks like a martial artists))

 

[jks9199]

One attack is the starting point. Since lots of people can't defend well against a single strike, they don't need to worry about the second strike!

But there's more to it... If you move on the first strike, defend and counter... in an ideal situation, their will be no second attack on you.

And NOTHING works everytime, for everything.

But, you're right on one point. A real fight is not the same as sparring.

 

[MJS]

Hello, Have you notice many martial arts classes teach self-defense for the ONE punch or One kick type of defense only!

than we counter...most of these are done at a very slow or unrealistic speed. ...and most of these moves are told in advance..and we do them at slower speeds.

In the real world...these punches and kicks (any combintions) are coming fast, furious, and explosive! Like in a real fighting?

After watching many fights,boxers, MMA, tournaments figthing, and street figthing? .....it seems no does the one step block and counter like in practice?

Is it just me here? ...or will those actully stuff we learn will work once a fight starts?

Kempo training is famous for these one step attacks with counters that are mulitple hits,blocks type of defending back.

Yet in a real fight? ....one rarely or ever see someone fight back like that...even in Kempo tournaments?

Is what we learning? ...will work in the real world? ...for all situtions?

Aloha ( real fights never looks like a martial artists))

When learning the preset defenses against an attack, they're done in the 'Ideal' phase. Every technique has an ideal phase. This is the starting point. Eventually, the student needs to move to the 'What If or Even If' phase. That is the part where things do not go as planned. The opponent resists, throws other strikes, etc., and its up to the defender to adapt to that. As always, keep in mind that the techniques are not set in stone. They're a foundation to build from.

When my inst. throws an attack at me, I need to do something, otherwise, I'm getting hit. If things don't go as planned, I need to be able to move on to something else.

The techniques work, but its up to the student to do their part as well. There are no secret solutions. Its really very simple...during training, we need to make it as realistic as possible. Of course, adding in some sparring will make a big difference too.

 

[onibaku]

my teacher taught me that whoever strikes first is the winner or has a higher chance of winning. he would always say that I should strike first

not everything we learned can be used in every situation. for example is blocks. I think that in a street fight evading is better than blocking. my teacher taught me to evade, then strike if striking first is not possible. he taught me techniques that finish a fight early. one strike, one kill. finish the opponent first before he has the chance to counter-attack

 

[Andrew Green]

Nobody trains against "a real fight".

Everyone trains with some combination of rules, safety equipment and control.

Different people just have different ideas on how to mix them.

 

[newGuy12]

Okay, I like this thinking. Who can have combinations to manage all of these attacks?

But, as has been said, these combinations are very robust. Consider, Five Swords. You defend against the right hook punch, thrown in a big way. You block, and then the right hand strikes the side of the neck. And then it continues.

What if the attacker throws a combination instead, one-two. In comes the attacker's left hand, and you get creamed. Not necessarily. The right hand chop to the neck, it can cross the body instead, to block, no problem. That is how robust Five Swords is.

When the hand crosses the body to block the left hand (second punch), you may give a rake to the face a little bit as well. This is why these techniques are so impressive. The Teacher can show how they can be used in very different circumstances. I've seen these demonstrations, where the "what if" parts are brought to light!

Of course, if it all ends up on the ground, oh my! That is a different story, of course!

 

[Sukerkin]

Not over this ground again, please ! Need a really big smiley for "exasperated" at this juncture ROFL.

We've hashed, rehashed, mashed, blended, dissected and dissemboweled this subject so many times ... and that's just in the short time I've been here .

Properly taught and implemented kata based training works wonderfully for transmitting techniques and knowledge to students. The pace of the training at any given time matters not one jot as long as you are aware of how to speed it up when you need to. As the old adage goes - first comes right, then comes fast.

Sparring is nothing like fighting in the 'real world' and has no more right to claim 'value' than any other training tool. In many ways it inculcates bad technique that you need kata training to remove or keep at bay. That doesn't mean that it has no value, just that you have to be aware of it's limitations. For example, it helps to teach students with under-active visualisation skills how to vary their timing and distance and can help iron out 'flinch' reflexes.

When I trained in Lau Gar, we did both kata and full contact sparring {none of todays cotton-wool approach to martial training back then :lol:}. Of the two, in my opinion, kata was more useful. I didn't think so when I started but after a decade I thought very differently. It's the visualisation and the understanding of the techniques that makes all the difference in the world between proper kata training and simple dumb-rote repetition.

When I had no choice but put that training into practise under very adverse conditions, I had no trouble at 'letting go' of the kata template and applying the techniques I required.

With the sword art I'm now training in, clearly sparring would be a most impractical way of training. There are some choreographed partner forms done with bokken but otherwise it's all kata and visualisation ... just as it has been for centuries (other than the odd break to go and slice someone in twain during battle). Does that mean that I wouldn't be able to use my katana for self defence if I needed to? I can't actually say but I would suspect that the only trouble would be steeling myself to use a three foot razor on another person.

 

[still learning]

Okay, I like this thinking. Who can have combinations to manage all of these attacks?

But, as has been said, these combinations are very robust. Consider, Five Swords. You defend against the right hook punch, thrown in a big way. You block, and then the right hand strikes the side of the neck. And then it continues.

What if the attacker throws a combination instead, one-two. In comes the attacker's left hand, and you get creamed. Not necessarily. The right hand chop to the neck, it can cross the body instead, to block, no problem. That is how robust Five Swords is.

When the hand crosses the body to block the left hand (second punch), you may give a rake to the face a little bit as well. This is why these techniques are so impressive. The Teacher can show how they can be used in very different circumstances. I've seen these demonstrations, where the "what if" parts are brought to light!

Of course, if it all ends up on the ground, oh my! That is a different story, of course!

Hello, Most Kempo school have mulitple counters and attacks ....ever see them do it in a REAL FIGHT...all those fancy and mulitple moves?....

Many of the MMA fighters have Kempo back grounds...ever see a fght where they block a punch or hook punch and do those Kempo moves? ....NEVER in the rings?....WHY? ...they work great in class.....BUT?

REAL fights are more liking boxing....just watch a few matches...and see how MMA fighters fight? .....which is one of the few things that is almost REAL fighting...............Aloha

 

[still learning]

Hello, In a real fight? ....you think after you block my punch? ...I am just going to stand there and wait for the rest of the kempo MOVES?

Kempo moves are NICE...can be fast....BUT only if the guy does not moves around or counter just as fast as you!

Instead of one step or couple of steps movements....have that person attack you like on the streets.....starting with a right hand punch..and continues his attacks against you? ....like it is for REALS......

than try to do the five swords? ....Aloha

PS:The proof is always in the ACTUAL combat.....not class rooms
Plus the adrenline,Fear factors,in a real situtions....always different from class room situtions.....REAL PLAY here!

 

[Tez3]

Ok, hands up all those people that have seen a 'real' fight. yes those brawling, sometimes drunken, swinging, grab a broken bottle on the way, stupid kicking madness that people like to call real fights.

Real fights aren't like matches. They aren't like boxing. MMA fighting isn't like 'real' fighting or at least street fights, don't even try comparing them and not because of the 'rules' thing. They aren't alike because both fighters are sober, both fighters are working to a plan and both have control. Fights in the street are nothing like this, there are confusing melees where anything can happen, people shouting, joining in or trying to drag people apart, girlfriends screaming and joining in, there's people spitting, peeing, shouting abuse, throwing things, that's the reality of 'street' fights. Ask any copper on duty in any British town on a Saturday night.

Street fighting is not combat, it's hooliganism, it's GBH,ABH, it's cowardly and stupid, there is no nobility in brawling.

I've seen blocks in MMA, I don't know if I've seen Kempo, it's rare in the UK though I think there are some clubs here.

Still Learning what do you consider combat?

 

[terryl965]

Hello, In a real fight? ....you think after you block my punch? ...I am just going to stand there and wait for the rest of the kempo MOVES?

Kempo moves are NICE...can be fast....BUT only if the guy does not moves around or counter just as fast as you!

Instead of one step or couple of steps movements....have that person attack you like on the streets.....starting with a right hand punch..and continues his attacks against you? ....like it is for REALS......

than try to do the five swords? ....Aloha

PS:The proof is always in the ACTUAL combat.....not class rooms
Plus the adrenline,Fear factors,in a real situtions....always different from class room situtions.....REAL PLAY here!

I would love to be in your fantasy world. Nobody trains like a street fight if they did they would only train once in a great while.

Street fight means everything goes. I would love to train with you.
Maybe I need to come to Hawaii so you can show me how to be trained since you have all the answers. I know alot of Kempo guys that would be offended by your statement and I know that I know nothing because I teach TKD, which is a joke to everybody.
ALOHA

 

[theletch1]

Ok, hands up all those people that have seen a 'real' fight. yes those brawling, sometimes drunken, swinging, grab a broken bottle on the way, stupid kicking madness that people like to call real fights.

Real fights aren't like matches. They aren't like boxing. MMA fighting isn't like 'real' fighting or at least street fights, don't even try comparing them and not because of the 'rules' thing. They aren't alike because both fighters are sober, both fighters are working to a plan and both have control. Fights in the street are nothing like this, there are confusing melees where anything can happen, people shouting, joining in or trying to drag people apart, girlfriends screaming and joining in, there's people spitting, peeing, shouting abuse, throwing things, that's the reality of 'street' fights. Ask any copper on duty in any British town on a Saturday night.

Street fighting is not combat, it's hooliganism, it's GBH,ABH, it's cowardly and stupid, there is no nobility in brawling.

I've seen blocks in MMA, I don't know if I've seen Kempo, it's rare in the UK though I think there are some clubs here.

Still Learning what do you consider combat?

I'll take the drunken hooligan over the trained MMA guy every time. Folks get a little blood in their whiskey stream and the balance goes to crap. Planted punches disappear, crisp kicks become non-existent, so on and so forth. Make no mistake, NO attacker should be taken lightly. Cowardly and stupid, you say? Could not agree with you more. That's probably why I stay away from places where drunks gather. I'm not sure what everyone is considering a "real" fight but the moment someone threatens me with physical violence that could keep me from coming home to my family it becomes a "real" fight to me and I will use "real" technique (and every dirty trick that comes to mind) to come home to my loving wife and adoring son.

 

[Tez3]

I'll take the drunken hooligan over the trained MMA guy every time. Folks get a little blood in their whiskey stream and the balance goes to crap. Planted punches disappear, crisp kicks become non-existent, so on and so forth. Make no mistake, NO attacker should be taken lightly. Cowardly and stupid, you say? Could not agree with you more. That's probably why I stay away from places where drunks gather. I'm not sure what everyone is considering a "real" fight but the moment someone threatens me with physical violence that could keep me from coming home to my family it becomes a "real" fight to me and I will use "real" technique (and every dirty trick that comes to mind) to come home to my loving wife and adoring son.

I totally agreed with you. I hate this 'glamming up' of so called street fighting as if it's something glorious and to be respected. We train self defence and fighting to defend our selves against attackers not ninjas or samurai or even Spec Forces on a mission. Some people need to get over this glorification of combat and see it for what it is.... a battle for survival and the person who wants to live most will most likely win. It doesn't necessarily take a martial artist to win either, imagine a mother fighting when her child is in danger. We will all do what we have to - to be the one walking away. That's the reality in black and white.

 

[MrE2Me2]

I totally agreed with you. I hate this 'glamming up' of so called street fighting as if it's something glorious and to be respected...

Amen to that!
There has been much to much emphasis on this foolishness.
Instead, one should be able to survive it intact and live a life worth living!
A Martial Art is one where there is realistic training for both aspects.
That is emphasis on the "Art" as well as the "Martial".

 

[newGuy12]

Many of the MMA fighters have Kempo back grounds...ever see a fght where they block a punch or hook punch and do those Kempo moves? ....NEVER in the rings?....WHY? ...they work great in class.....BUT?

Hello, still_learning!

I understand what you are saying. BUT, I actually DID see a Kenpo Man do a technique straight out of the book in one of those "cage match" things one time. Now, I do not regularly watch cage matches, and I cannot recall why I was watching this particular one.

But, there was a Kenpo Man (American Kenpo --> GrandMaster Ed Parker's style). And, he did a technique STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOOK!

I am not lying. This may not happen often, but it did this particular time, and I saw it on film. I cannot recall who this Kenpo Man is. He was fighting against some gosh-awful big guy. This opponent was as big as a house!!! Okay, so, the Kenpo Man comes out, and does SLEEPER.

Now, Sleeper is a defense to the punch. There was no punch, and he did not follow through all of the technique. He stopped once the choke hold was on. He simply stopped, and cinched down. The Real Big Guy went out like a light bulb.

No joke. I saw it on film.

Now, surely no one is going to expect all of these techniques to work in a textbook way all of the time. But, sometimes you may be surprised.

Besides... what about this? You are attacked with some big right hand punch... okay, you do FIVE SWORDS. At some point you must consider... what if it does not work? Okay, well, at least you have both hands flying about. They may block SOMETHING. They may hit SOMETHING. They may rake SOMETHING.

You see, when you are doing Five Swords, at least you are not just standing there waiting to be a punching bag. Five Swords is not to be taken lightly. It is a very dangerous technique, very fast motion, many strikes packed into a short amount of time!!!

Aloha, still_learning!



Robert

 

[newGuy12]

Still_learning, Sir.

I don't wish to cause a fuss or argument, but it confuses me that you would doubt this way. You yourself live in Hawaii. Ed Parker came from Hawaii!!! You seem to think that these people were just theoreticians, they were not. They would fight and so on. Ed Parker was a genius who understood how one motion flows into another. One strike can cause a reaction in the opponent. It is then anticipated.

He understood deep things about motion.

I have found an American Kenpo Teacher in my city who teaches classes, not just private lessons. I plan to visit him and join in his school to augment my TKD. This Kenpo is no joke. If you read Ed Parker's Infinite Insights into Kenpo, he makes it QUITE CLEAR that this real fighting has no rules. He understands this all too clearly. He had in mind this no-rules way of fighting from the beginning.

You also live in Hawaii. How can you doubt these techniques so???



Robert

 

[jks9199]

I totally agreed with you. I hate this 'glamming up' of so called street fighting as if it's something glorious and to be respected. We train self defence and fighting to defend our selves against attackers not ninjas or samurai or even Spec Forces on a mission. Some people need to get over this glorification of combat and see it for what it is.... a battle for survival and the person who wants to live most will most likely win. It doesn't necessarily take a martial artist to win either, imagine a mother fighting when her child is in danger. We will all do what we have to - to be the one walking away. That's the reality in black and white.

Until they've been there, seen the elephant, and got the t-shirt, they won't get it. But they'll be sure to tell you all about how it should go...

Kind of like a rookie just out of FTO...

 

[Tez3]

Hello, still_learning!

I understand what you are saying. BUT, I actually DID see a Kenpo Man do a technique straight out of the book in one of those "cage match" things one time. Now, I do not regularly watch cage matches, and I cannot recall why I was watching this particular one.

But, there was a Kenpo Man (American Kenpo --> GrandMaster Ed Parker's style). And, he did a technique STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOOK!

I am not lying. This may not happen often, but it did this particular time, and I saw it on film. I cannot recall who this Kenpo Man is. He was fighting against some gosh-awful big guy. This opponent was as big as a house!!! Okay, so, the Kenpo Man comes out, and does SLEEPER.

Now, Sleeper is a defense to the punch. There was no punch, and he did not follow through all of the technique. He stopped once the choke hold was on. He simply stopped, and cinched down. The Real Big Guy went out like a light bulb.

No joke. I saw it on film.

Now, surely no one is going to expect all of these techniques to work in a textbook way all of the time. But, sometimes you may be surprised.

Besides... what about this? You are attacked with some big right hand punch... okay, you do FIVE SWORDS. At some point you must consider... what if it does not work? Okay, well, at least you have both hands flying about. They may block SOMETHING. They may hit SOMETHING. They may rake SOMETHING.

You see, when you are doing Five Swords, at least you are not just standing there waiting to be a punching bag. Five Swords is not to be taken lightly. It is a very dangerous technique, very fast motion, many strikes packed into a short amount of time!!!

Aloha, still_learning!



Robert

What an excellent move for MMA! I'm going to try that out tonight, thank you! As I said the only reason I don't think we see Kenpo moves much over here in MMA is that it's a little known style here but that is the only reason.
I'm not going to add anymore as like many on here I'm a bit tired of bashing my head on a brick wall!

 

[terryl965]

What an excellent move for MMA! I'm going to try that out tonight, thank you! As I said the only reason I don't think we see Kenpo moves much over here in MMA is that it's a little known style here but that is the only reason.
I'm not going to add anymore as like many on here I'm a bit tired of bashing my head on a brick wall!

It temds to get old pretty fast and that brick is giving me an headache

.

 

[MJS]

Hello, Most Kempo school have mulitple counters and attacks ....ever see them do it in a REAL FIGHT...all those fancy and mulitple moves?....

Many of the MMA fighters have Kempo back grounds...ever see a fght where they block a punch or hook punch and do those Kempo moves? ....NEVER in the rings?....WHY? ...they work great in class.....BUT?

REAL fights are more liking boxing....just watch a few matches...and see how MMA fighters fight? .....which is one of the few things that is almost REAL fighting...............Aloha

Hello, In a real fight? ....you think after you block my punch? ...I am just going to stand there and wait for the rest of the kempo MOVES?

Kempo moves are NICE...can be fast....BUT only if the guy does not moves around or counter just as fast as you!

Instead of one step or couple of steps movements....have that person attack you like on the streets.....starting with a right hand punch..and continues his attacks against you? ....like it is for REALS......

than try to do the five swords? ....Aloha

PS:The proof is always in the ACTUAL combat.....not class rooms
Plus the adrenline,Fear factors,in a real situtions....always different from class room situtions.....REAL PLAY here!

SL, let me make a few suggestions for you. It seems like every post you make, you bash something. Why? I've been down the same road as you, saying that certain things are not in Kenpo, and others telling me yes, it is in there. Perhaps you should take a look at the way YOU train! Maybe, just maybe you're not getting what YOU want out of it. If thats the case, considering you're in Hawaii, the birthplace of Kenpo/Kaju, I suggest going to another school. Hawaii is loaded with Kajukenbo schools. Maybe you should try that.

If you're still not interested in Kenpo, then do MMA. If you feel that will better address your needs, then train in that.

I going to guess and say that you have not trained for that long. I've trained in Kenpo for over 20 yrs and I cross train in Arnis and BJJ. The 3 combined, meet everything that I'm looking for.

I strongly suggest that you re-evaluate your training, find whats best for you and train in it! You don't seem happy with Kenpo, otherwise you wouldn't bash it like you're doing now. As others have said to me...Maybe its YOUR Kenpo that needs improvement. I took on other arts to further address certain areas. I'm happy. I like Kenpo. If I didn't I would have left it a long time ago.

I find it odd that you say that certain things can't be done in a real fight. Hmmm...have you been in a real fight? I'm sure everyone else who trains in Kenpo or Kaju would have left if what they're training in failed them.

You're right...nobody stands still in a fight, allowing you to do your full technique. Thats why you need to be able to graft and flow from one move to the next, adapting to whats presented to you. As I said in another post you apparently didn't read, when my inst. throws a strike at me, I have two options...stand still and get hit, or move. He makes me work. He doesnt give anything to me. He'll throw a punch, and while I'm doing the tech. he'll do something else. He keeps it real. I'm guessing your inst. does not do this.

Good luck in YOUR training.

Mike