The True System

[MJS]

Looking at some articles online, it seems that there are articles out that raise questions as to things that used to be in Kenpo but were changed and/or removed. Specifically, I'm referring to things posted here.

Parker then began to criticize the Tracy brothers, by saying they had never learned his complete system. But this put him on unstable ground. After all, Ed had left Professor Chow in 1954, and with the exception of 3 weeks in September-October 1959, never studied with him again. Ed could, therefore, not have learned Professor Chow's complete system either, as that system was not developed until shortly before his death in 1987. The fact is, the Tracy brothers learned Professor Chow's complete system of Original Kenpo as he taught it to Ed Parker. That system was virtually unchanged from what Professor Chow taught Will Tracy between 1959-1964. The Tracy brothers also learned Ed Parker's complete system of Traditional Kenpo that he taught between 1960 and 1965. Further, Ed Parker consulted with the Tracy brothers on all the changes he made to his system until 1981. They rejected those changes and refused to incorporate them into their system.

Now, I have not read every article word for word, so perhaps I'm missing something. Maybe my answers are in one of the articles, but I overlooked it. In any case, reading the above quote it seems to me that there are some major differences between the Tracy/Parker systems. Why did the Tracys' reject the changes? Why did Parker feel it was necessary to make the changes? Are the Tracys' teaching the true Kenpo system?



Mike

 

[terryl965]

Mike I'm no Kenpo expert so I will put in my opinion over the years, the Tracey rejected Parker changes do to the fact they was different from the original way they where tought or at least that has been what was explained to me.

On making the changes it was to make it more modern and easier for the Western civilins to learn it or that is what I have heard.

Please do not qoute me on this but this is my understanding to the whole subject matter, it does goes alot deeper than this I know but I really do not know the whole story.

Just my opinion the way I have been told.

 

[Flying Crane]

ooh boy, can of worms, again.

Mike, I think this excerpt is from Will Tracys website. Will is sort of the blacksheep of the Tracy group, I think he may not really be officially affiliated anymore, and he is only expressing his own personal opinions, not speaking for the Tracy group as a whole.

I think a lot of what he writes is his version of the truth, which may not be the Whole Truth, or Nothing But The Truth.

That being said, I don't know what about the changes Mr. Parker made that the Tracys objected to. I do know that they decided to keep the art the way it was taught to them (more or less), and decided to not incorporate Mr. Parker's changes. I personally think it was just a different philosophy and vision of where the art should go. So ultimately they split up and went their own ways.

I just see the two arts as two viable options in the kenpo world. Each person to decide for themself which method works best for them.

 

[MJS]

ooh boy, can of worms, again.

Looks around innocently.:angel:

Mike, I think this excerpt is from Will Tracys website. Will is sort of the blacksheep of the Tracy group, I think he may not really be officially affiliated anymore, and he is only expressing his own personal opinions, not speaking for the Tracy group as a whole.

I think a lot of what he writes is his version of the truth, which may not be the Whole Truth, or Nothing But The Truth.

That being said, I don't know what about the changes Mr. Parker made that the Tracys objected to. I do know that they decided to keep the art the way it was taught to them (more or less), and decided to not incorporate Mr. Parker's changes. I personally think it was just a different philosophy and vision of where the art should go. So ultimately they split up and went their own ways.

I just see the two arts as two viable options in the kenpo world. Each person to decide for themself which method works best for them.

Thanks for the reply Mike. As you know, I have a background in EPAK and most recently made the switch to Tracy. This however has nothing to do with a dislike for EPAK. I enjoy both, feel that both have alot to offer. During my web surfing, I came across these articles and was just looking for clarification from some of the folks that have more knowledge of the background.

Mike

 

[Flying Crane]

Looks around innocently.:angel:



Thanks for the reply Mike. As you know, I have a background in EPAK and most recently made the switch to Tracy. This however has nothing to do with a dislike for EPAK. I enjoy both, feel that both have alot to offer. During my web surfing, I came across these articles and was just looking for clarification from some of the folks that have more knowledge of the background.

Mike

Yeah, I didn't figure you were looking to start yet another fight over these articles. I actually think perhaps it raises some interesting points of discussion, if we can all put aside our defense mechanisms and not get offended by what gets said. I know these articles have been argued over this site numerous times, don't need to see that again.

So speaking of changes, I know that the Tracys did incorporate their own additions to the art. I believe a lot of it is borrowed from other Chinese arts. If you go to the Tracy Kenpo website, there is a link listing everything they teach as part of their system. It includes a lot of Chinese forms, including Tai Chi, some Chinese weaponry, I think a Japanese sword form, and others. I never learned this stuff and cannot vouch for the quality of how it is being taught in Tracys. But this stuff was clearly borrowed from other sources, and was not stuff the Tracys learned from Mr. Parker. So I guess they have also made changes of their own, for reasons of their own.

I personally find it all interesting. The two arts clearly went in different directions. EPAK whittled the tech lists down, Tracy kept the tech lists and added material borrowed from elsewhere. Either way, its a WHOLE LOT of material. I guess it's good to have choices, to find what works best for your, what sparks your interest the most. That's really how I like to see it, I get tired of the arguments over Tracys vs. Parker, or specifically "Will Tracy is crazy and he is just trashing on Mr. Parker, who is dead and not here to defend himself". I hope this thread stays away from that, and maybe we can constructively discuss and compare and learn from each other.

I personally am quite sure that there are EPAK people who are really really good; as well as some who are really really lousy.

The same goes with Tracy people, and any other hybrid or variety of kenpo.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Looking at some articles online, it seems that there are articles out that raise questions as to things that used to be in Kenpo but were changed and/or removed. Specifically, I'm referring to things posted here.







Now, I have not read every article word for word, so perhaps I'm missing something. Maybe my answers are in one of the articles, but I overlooked it. In any case, reading the above quote it seems to me that there are some major differences between the Tracy/Parker systems. Why did the Tracys' reject the changes? Why did Parker feel it was necessary to make the changes? Are the Tracys' teaching the true Kenpo system?



Mike

Kenpo as taught by Ed Parker is a western system.
Sean

 

[Blindside]

Presumably either Chow or Mitose taught "the true system" otherwise no one below them on a lineage chart does, and if the arts that either the Tracy's or Parker taught don't resemble theirs, well it seems like no one is teaching "the true system."

What the Tracy's taught/teach is what Ed Parker taught, AFTER he added new 5 empty hand forms, borrowed two or three from Hung Gar, a staff set, and formalized techs that don't appear in any of the Chow lineages. Then the Tracy's added a two staff sets, a sword, and a couple forms of their own. And oddly enough, they don't teach Naihanchi which apparently Mitose did.

What the Tracy's teach is Traditional Kenpo which is a simply a version of one of Ed Parker's evolutions.

Lamont

PS: I don't have anything against the Tracy's, I do a version of Tracy Kenpo.

 

[Monadnock]

Well, a system should be complete to be called a system. Somewhere, if there's bickerin', sometime, somebody thought something was needed/should be removed. The ideas of what the system should include conflicted.

I used to care about these things, but later found that they were generally based on science and logic, both man-made, and only interpretations of someone's vision of reality. (In a lot of cases, someone who was just out to make a buck)

Definitely train in what feeds your mind and body, but later you have to make the leap into the void.

(OK, you don't have to....that's just my choice.)

 

[dianhsuhe]

Parker said that he changed roughly 90% of what he had learned from Professor Chow (and he only studied with Professor for a couple of years). Even Professor Chow himself made MAJOR changes throughout his Martial Arts career.

Seems like everyone adds their spin, some have/had the blessing of their teacher some did/do not. At the end of the day we are all brothers and sisters, although it is more like a foster-home I suppose.

Have a great night folks!

 

[Ray]

In any case, reading the above quote it seems to me that there are some major differences between the Tracy/Parker systems. Why did the Tracys' reject the changes? Why did Parker feel it was necessary to make the changes? Are the Tracys' teaching the true Kenpo system?

I think the Tracy's believe that they are staying true to the art that they were taught and thus reject the "innovation/evolution" introduced by Parker.

Look at the some of the changes that Mr. Parker made. The first two Tracy Techs are Japanese Sword and Chinese Sword. Chinese Sword (varation A) is no more than Sword of Destruction without the kick. Japanese Sword (varation B) is no more than Delayed Sword without the kick. It could be argued that by keeping those two techs, a system that is (perhaps) more true to the original art is perpetuated. However, do you really need to learn them or can you learn Delayed Sword (and Sword of Destruction) and extrapolate Chinese & Japanese Sword via the Equation Formula? Same with some of the other techniques.

I think that the Tracy's system is as true a system as the 154 tech (+96 extensions). I feel that the EPAK system is more compact, reduces redunancy and was "better thought out" as a "scientific system of study" versus an "art"

 

[MJS]

Yeah, I didn't figure you were looking to start yet another fight over these articles. I actually think perhaps it raises some interesting points of discussion, if we can all put aside our defense mechanisms and not get offended by what gets said. I know these articles have been argued over this site numerous times, don't need to see that again.

Agreed. There was a thread brought over here from KT that was talking about those articles. I have no desire to beat that horse, just using parts as a ref. point for this thread.

So speaking of changes, I know that the Tracys did incorporate their own additions to the art. I believe a lot of it is borrowed from other Chinese arts. If you go to the Tracy Kenpo website, there is a link listing everything they teach as part of their system. It includes a lot of Chinese forms, including Tai Chi, some Chinese weaponry, I think a Japanese sword form, and others. I never learned this stuff and cannot vouch for the quality of how it is being taught in Tracys. But this stuff was clearly borrowed from other sources, and was not stuff the Tracys learned from Mr. Parker. So I guess they have also made changes of their own, for reasons of their own.

Yes, I looked and saw what you were talking about.

I personally find it all interesting. The two arts clearly went in different directions. EPAK whittled the tech lists down, Tracy kept the tech lists and added material borrowed from elsewhere. Either way, its a WHOLE LOT of material. I guess it's good to have choices, to find what works best for your, what sparks your interest the most. That's really how I like to see it, I get tired of the arguments over Tracys vs. Parker, or specifically "Will Tracy is crazy and he is just trashing on Mr. Parker, who is dead and not here to defend himself". I hope this thread stays away from that, and maybe we can constructively discuss and compare and learn from each other.

Agreed. I don't want this thread to turn into a bash session. I'm hoping that some of the other Tracy people that we have on here, can join in on this thread and clarify some things. I"m just curious as to why the Tracys opted not to go along with the changes Parker was making. I'm sure there must've been something they didn't agree upon.

 

[Flying Crane]

I"m just curious as to why the Tracys opted not to go along with the changes Parker was making. I'm sure there must've been something they didn't agree upon.

Yes, I would be interested in knowing the ins and outs as well. I think the only account I have seen is Will Tracys, and as we mentioned, it's kind of to be taken with a grain of salt.

I just started retraining my Tracy kenpo with Ted Sumner, who is high up in the Tracy organization. He began studying under the Tracy brothers back in about 1963 or so. After I get to know him better and sort of establish myself as a trusted student, maybe I'll see if I can pick his brain a bit and get his perspective and insights. I've only had one class with him, my second class is tonight. I don't feel comfortable bringing up politics so soon after beginning with him. I'll give it some time, and if the opportunity presents itself, I'll ask him.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Presumably either Chow or Mitose taught "the true system" otherwise no one below them on a lineage chart does, and if the arts that either the Tracy's or Parker taught don't resemble theirs, well it seems like no one is teaching "the true system."

What the Tracy's taught/teach is what Ed Parker taught, AFTER he added new 5 empty hand forms, borrowed two or three from Hung Gar, a staff set, and formalized techs that don't appear in any of the Chow lineages. Then the Tracy's added a two staff sets, a sword, and a couple forms of their own. And oddly enough, they don't teach Naihanchi which apparently Mitose did.

What the Tracy's teach is Traditional Kenpo which is a simply a version of one of Ed Parker's evolutions.

Lamont

PS: I don't have anything against the Tracy's, I do a version of Tracy Kenpo.

In addition to Naihanchi, Mitose also taught Naihan No (his version of a Naihachi like wall Kata) and 3 Neko Buto Kata. Most important of all is the Hachi Henkai Keiho - Octagon drills and forms. Do the Tracys, EPAK, or Kara Ho practice the Octagon? If so please describe your drills. I'd like to know what else we have in common. I practice Kosho Shorei.

_Don Flatt

 

[Blindside]

In addition to Naihanchi, Mitose also taught Naihan No (his version of a Naihachi like wall Kata) and 3 Neko Buto Kata. Most important of all is the Hachi Henkai Keiho - Octagon drills and forms. Do the Tracys, EPAK, or Kara Ho practice the Octagon? If so please describe your drills. I'd like to know what else we have in common. I practice Kosho Shorei.

_Don Flatt

Could you describe the Octagon drill? It is possible that we do under a different name, but I have no idea.

Thanks,

Lamont

 

[John Bishop]

In addition to Naihanchi, Mitose also taught Naihan No (his version of a Naihachi like wall Kata) and 3 Neko Buto Kata.
_Don Flatt

According to who? Thomas Young, Adriano Emperado, and others have said that Mitose only taught "Naihanchi Shodan".
In fact, since Mitose only taught them one kata, Young went and learned the Kyokushinkai katas Bobby Lowe got from Mas Oyama in the 50's.

 

[distalero]

Only the Tracys can speak for the Tracy's, but I have a (very) small amount of insight as to possibly why:

EPAK, from the viewpoint of many students of the "stuff that came before", is a reduction in material. I know that's apparently inflammatory for some, but it's true that it was looked on as "less than" by many where I practiced, anyhow. I can tell you how it was promoted in my time; "it's breaking things down and simplifying them so you know where the power is, and so that it can be taught the same to everyone". Whether or not that's true, I don't know, but it was said by several trusted teachers of the time. My time came just a little after the break, so I don't speak with "I was there" authority, but it isn't difficult for me to do about a dime's worth of extrapolation and realize that simpler isn't necessarily attractive to guys who put their heart and soul, not to mention their business surival , in something a little different.

I will say this, though, I rejected it at the time EPAK arrived for the same reason, even when, to be completely frank, I could see that there was some merit to the argument. Mine wasn't a rejection based on what was superior (it was essentially similar), but rather based on the fact that I had been taken under wing and shown principles that addressed that "breaking things down...so you know where the power is" prior to the advent of the simpler material. My natural talent in all of this was speed, so it's not like finding "power points" (old term) wasn't crucial for me, it's just that this was being addressed already by several kind teachers, within the context of the prior material, and I suspect this was done for others as well.

 

[tigdra]

**Please read my post not as fact but as my opinions based on my experiences. Do not take any unusual action in your present martial arts study due to anything that I may say. Please do not read my words and think that I am stating facts, these comments are only ment for conversational purposes.**

(sorry for the disclaimer but I'm not in the mood to get sued or anything of the sort.)


I hate to be the barer of bad news, but I think there is one situation that hasn't been thought of.

What if the tracys got the entire system but no longer teach it due to what ever may be.

Could be that they don't remember all the material, have changed somethings because they felt it wasn't usefull or it could be that they no longer feal that the masses are worthy of such information.

I only present this possibility because I have some insight on the subject and the possibility that one of these are true.

I will keep my source a secret for obvious reasons, but I have been told by a very reliable person, on numerous occasions, that the tracys have forgotten some of the material and have filtered in some of their own.

I didn't believe it but I then also bought one of tracy's videos and was suprised to see how sloppy and incomplete his technique was. Not only that but Mr. Tracy admits, in this video, to changing some things.

I would love to go into more detail but I think it is wise for me to keep it simple so not to expose myself and my sources.

 

[Blindside]

I hate to be the barer of bad news, but I think there is one situation that hasn't been thought of.

What if the tracys got the entire system but no longer teach it due to what ever may be.

Not *GASP* change.....

Everyone who has touched what we call kenpo in the past 60 years has changed it. Chow did, Parker did, Emperado did, and many of Parkers students have as well. Yes the Tracy's have changed some things, added several forms, added variations onto techs they have learned, they even *GASP* changed an angle in Form 5, and they had the nerve to invent a Forms 6,7, and 8 for themselves after they left Parker.

So what???

Lamont

 

[Jdokan]

I agree with the last comment. I think evrybody pretty much changes or tweaks things. Sometimes it is done I believe to create distance from what their Instructor did/does...And can't that be a good thing? My instructor had very powerful upperbody strength I don't have that same strength, therefore techniques that work well for him don't work for me...With modifications (sometimes minor other times major) made that tend to work better is more important to me than trying to maintain the originality. I don't make changes just to make them, each change is after much deliberation. Example with #39 (Villari System) I was taught #4 block, stepping l/f to 3:00, spin cw striking with r/h spinning backfist, l/h thrust punch/ r/h thrust punch (midsection), r/roundhouse elbow face, l/h thrust punch (midsection), r/h backfist face. This whole technique was done directly in front of the attacker just off center in alignment with their left side....I always felt uncomfortable being direclty in front of their left punching hand....I have altered it using all the same strikes but working to the opposite side on the outside of their r/side....The block is the same but I step the l/foot to my 9:00 position I still spin into the backfist striking their right side of neck&face..I then continue my rotation stepping (with my l/f) behind them, the 2 thrust punches go to the kidneys, the rhouse elbow strikes the "knockout" area behind the right ear, r/h thrust again to the l/kidney, r/backfist to the other side of the head behind the ear....

The reason I felt this change made sense for me was to get away from the second (possibly) punching hand....

To my instructor the change probably won't make sense...but for me it makes the technique safer and feel more confident....

What are thougts on this???

 

[Flying Crane]

**Please read my post not as fact but as my opinions based on my experiences. Do not take any unusual action in your present martial arts study due to anything that I may say. Please do not read my words and think that I am stating facts, these comments are only ment for conversational purposes.**

(sorry for the disclaimer but I'm not in the mood to get sued or anything of the sort.)


I hate to be the barer of bad news, but I think there is one situation that hasn't been thought of.

What if the tracys got the entire system but no longer teach it due to what ever may be.

Could be that they don't remember all the material, have changed somethings because they felt it wasn't usefull or it could be that they no longer feal that the masses are worthy of such information.

I only present this possibility because I have some insight on the subject and the possibility that one of these are true.

I will keep my source a secret for obvious reasons, but I have been told by a very reliable person, on numerous occasions, that the tracys have forgotten some of the material and have filtered in some of their own.

I didn't believe it but I then also bought one of tracy's videos and was suprised to see how sloppy and incomplete his technique was. Not only that but Mr. Tracy admits, in this video, to changing some things.

I would love to go into more detail but I think it is wise for me to keep it simple so not to expose myself and my sources.

Well, I am currently training under a very senior instructor in Tracys, someone who has been with them since about 1964 or so, and I can say that he certainly knows his stuff inside and out and upside down. Does he even do some things differently from how they are printed in the manuals? Yup, that's just based on his own experience in other arts and a career in law enforcement. But it's still the same stuff. And he seems to be teaching the material very openly to his students. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me like he's holding back all the "secrets", for a special group of "indoor" students.

Have the Tracys "forgotten", or changed things? Probably. We can't remember everything we experience in life. If you go to their website, you will see that they have included material from Chinese sources, things that they definitely did not learn from Mr. Parker. So obviously they did change things, as well as keep other things the same.

I've seen tech videos that were produced by Mr. Tracy back in about 1980 or so. I also thought it looked pretty sloppy. But these videos were really only meant to be frame of reference for people who already know the material. I don't believe they were meant to teach all the little details, nor even to really show the tech done at realistic speed. They just show the gross movement as a reminder. So it's important to keep things in perspective.

My suspicion is that what you suggest is not true. There are a lot of politics on martial arts, especially in kenpo. Could be that your source is wrapped up in something that he is angry about, and wants to plant some bad seeds. I wouldn't buy his story...