Tracy's Kenpo Practicioners Slamming Mr. Parker and American Kenpo(older posts)

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superdave

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I was surfing though the web this evening, looking for information on Kenpo systems(Parker and Tracy)
and came across some really nasty posts made by people who study Tracy's Kenpo. There are people out there who are or had claimed that American Kenpo was a cult, and that Ed Parker was using Kenpo to spread his Mormon religion. There are people who claimed that Ed Parker did not earn his blackbelt from William Chow, and that he had made up most of the material that he was teaching. There are other less that flattering thing that were said also, just too many to list.

I know that some Tracy Kenpoists claim that their system is superior to Parker's system based just on the amount of techniques per belt level. I don't know really anything about Tracy's system so I won't comment on that, but from what I have seen in Parker's system(not really much beyond purple belt)one can tell that it is not a watered down style as some may claim.

It is really sickening to see the disrespect for the man that made it possible for the Tracy's to learn Kenpo. If this type of stuff is coming from the head of the Tracy system, then that is really sad. If anyone want to read some of the posts that I am refering to please go to GOOGLE and type in TRACYS KENPO and then click on the GROUPS TAB.

I would bet that if Mr. Parker was still here, this kind of thing would not be said about him.

I am not trying to offend any Tracy students, so don't take it personal.
 

Cthulhu

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I'd just like to say that the idea of more techniques per belt = superior style is just utter BS. It is not the number of techniques that matter, but the person doing the techniques that makes all the difference.

Pft.

Cthulhu
 
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Sandor

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Cthulhu is right. Let me just add/share this;

The whole more is better argument is wrong. So is the whole perceptioin that Parker's is 'less' or that the less is incomplete. What good is knowing 10 or 1000 techniques if you are too busy trying to cram them all in to actually master them(as in your neuromuscular memory knows them)?

Take a look at Bill 'Superfoot' Wallace for a second to see what I mean. Wallace used 3 basics in his arsenal. (Hook, roundhouse and sidethrust kicks, all off of the left leg) I don't remember seeing him ever throw a punch in a match and everyone knew what Superfoot was going to use against them. They would train to try and defeat his simple tactics and yet nobody could. Why? Because he got so good at them that nobody could beat him at his game.

That kind of perfection in a given set of skills simply cannot be attained across hundreds of techniques. Just keep in mind all of those techniques are physical manifestations of ideas to teach your body through high quantities of quality repetition. Find the best ones that work for you, feel right and you can easily modify to handle a variety of attack scenarios.

Focus on the quality of your Kenpo and don't let the endless bickering drag you down. It aint going away any time soon and as long as they are all arguing they aren't breaking each others windows or legs ;)


Just my dos pesos :)

Sandor
 

Cthulhu

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I was trying to find a good analogy for this, Sandor, and completely forgot about Bill Wallace. Good catch! :)

Cthulhu
 
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Sandor

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Funny thing (this is a big picture kinda funny) is that as much of a hero/mentor Wallace was when I was a kid (and still is today) I am not a kicker.


Peace,
Sandor
 
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Sanxiawuyi

Guest
These postings you are referring to on Google are up to five to eight years old. Most have to do with the old Tracy web site, which was not written by the head of the system, Al Tracy.

I was hoping that sleeping dog would lie resting, but every now and then it awakes. Many of us are embarrassed by it, and rather not even speak of it.

I can assure you that most Tracy Kenpo practitioners (like myself) have the highest respect for American Kenpo, Mr. Parker and his incredible contributions to martial arts and his development of American Kenpo.

We also, as Tracy Kenpoist, dont think about numbers, rather we are just concerned with the effectiveness of the system. As I have studied in both systems I can tell you there are many more similarities then differences between us. We just like to hold on to the old traditions and you the new.

Please dont think Tracy Kenpoist as bad or with attitude, as I would never slander all of American Kenpo for what some idiots may have done on their own, and we all know those stories here as well.

Thanks for reading, and maybe check out my site The Kenpo Exchange to see how other Tracy Kenpoist are, or try the Tracy Kenpo Forum hosted by a practitioner from Texas.

Sincerely,
Sanxiawuyi

:asian:
 
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GouRonin

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I know some Tracy guys like Ricardo from Texas who runs the Tracy forum they are good guys. If some Tracy guys in particular want to slander and make up weird sheet about their past because it makes them feel better then let them. Doesn't make a bit of difference to me. With the sex cults and the having to keep up with other weird stuff it's not like they aren't doing themselves favours and not attracting attention to themselves.

The Tracy's were instrumental in pushing Kenpo across North America. So I just say cut them some slack, let them do what they want, and take it with a grain of salt.
 
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Sanxiawuyi

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Thanks from a fellow Canuck and Kenpo brother.

:asian:
 
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superdave

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Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi
These postings you are referring to on Google are up to five to eight years old. Most have to do with the old Tracy web site, which was not written by the head of the system, Al Tracy.

I was hoping that sleeping dog would lie resting, but every now and then it awakes. Many of us are embarrassed by it, and rather not even speak of it.

I can assure you that most Tracy Kenpo practitioners (like myself) have the highest respect for American Kenpo, Mr. Parker and his incredible contributions to martial arts and his development of American Kenpo.

We also, as Tracy Kenpoist, dont think about numbers, rather we are just concerned with the effectiveness of the system. As I have studied in both systems I can tell you there are many more similarities then differences between us. We just like to hold on to the old traditions and you the new.

Please dont think Tracy Kenpoist as bad or with attitude, as I would never slander all of American Kenpo for what some idiots may have done on their own, and we all know those stories here as well.

Thanks for reading, and maybe check out my site The Kenpo Exchange to see how other Tracy Kenpoist are, or try the Tracy Kenpo Forum hosted by a practitioner from Texas.

Sincerely,
Sanxiawuyi

Thanks Sanxiawuyi, for your input. I don't group all Tracy's students together with those who posted that garbage on the old site.I understand that there are bad apples in every martial art. It is ashame that there are people like that out there who act so childish never bothering to see that both systems have common roots. I feel that There is alot to learn from ALL OF THE Senior blackbelts, wether they are from the Parker or Tracy system.

Please do not take offense to my post as I meant no harm.

On another note, I have visited the new Tracy's site and was welcomed very warmly. I will check out the Kenpo Exchange also. By the way, do you know of a site that describes any of the Tracy self defense techniques? There are no Tracy schools near my home in Maryland, I am kind of curious to see some of the techniques in your system. That was what I was looking for when I came across those posts.

Well got to go.

Superdave


:asian:

mod note: just corrected the 'quote' and 'bold' tags...hope you don't mind, superdave
 
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Nate_Hoopes

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I am a Student of Tracy kenpo, I dont claim it to be any better than parker, Many people give the tracys a hard time, theres many a people dont have half the experience they do and then claim to start there own martial arts. The tracys are well seasoned, as I was told to me the first day i started training, theres only one difference between a white belt and a black belt, and that answer is simply...Time. There isn't many people outthere with as much experience and time in the art that are still alive. The concepts taught in tracy are much the same as taught in parker, even many of the techniques are the same. I feel parker has a more traditional feel and look to it, the tracys try to stay up to date and keep it modern. some people are morons dont let those guys leave a bad taste in your mouth, not all of us feel that way.
 
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GouRonin

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You are stating that the Tracy's are more up to date and modern in their material and that Parker's is more traditional?

I'd have to disagree with that. I'd say more vice versa.
 
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Nate_Hoopes

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Let me rephrase, The way it is taught is more up to date, this is all a matter of opinion, in the earlier belts tracy puts many variations to make more emphasis on all aspects of the move you are doing, I feel it made it easier for me to learn how the mechanics are supposed to work in the move. I'll admit i dont know a great deal about parker kenpo, but i do know that the tracy techniques change from time to time to fit better, the order in which the moves are taught made it very easy to begin building my foundation, and although i know there is still much to learn, I do feel i have a basic understanding of whats going on in almost every technique im taught right now, I feel the way tracy builds up is more modern than parker, but like i said its all a matter of opinion.
 

Blindside

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Hi Nate,

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you also.

"but i do know that the tracy techniques change from time to time to fit better"

Actually contained within in the official Tracy curriculum are variation that Al Tracy says himself "would not work." So instead, a B variation is added to give a workable solution. (One of these that comes to mind is Twisting Staves.) To me, and I like to consider myself a "modern" instructor, I would simply never teach a technique that I think is a POS. But the Tracy's have to keep a bad technique in because they have had it in their official curriculum for the past 38(?) years.

Another way to address the question of what is more "modern" is to see how the system fits within the framework of todays society. I do not see how learning the katana, spear, chinese broadsword, or even the staff is more modern than the stick and knife.

There is the whole question of whether kenpo is a technique based or conceptual vehicle for self-defense. I believe the Tracy's tend toward the "technique" based, due to its endless variations on a technique that simply change one hand weapon. In a conceptual vehicle these questions are addressed through "web of knowledge" or another similar concept. In my opinion techique based systems are less "modern" than the conceptual vehicles. That being said, I've seen AK practitioners who learned the system by rote and didn't have an understanding of the concepts behind the techs.


Just to let you know, my lineage goes through Al Tracy.

Just my opinion,

Lamont
 
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Chiduce

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Originally posted by Blindside
Hi Nate,

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you also.

"but i do know that the tracy techniques change from time to time to fit better"

Actually contained within in the official Tracy curriculum are variation that Al Tracy says himself "would not work." So instead, a B variation is added to give a workable solution. (One of these that comes to mind is Twisting Staves.) To me, and I like to consider myself a "modern" instructor, I would simply never teach a technique that I think is a POS. But the Tracy's have to keep a bad technique in because they have had it in their official curriculum for the past 38(?) years.

Another way to address the question of what is more "modern" is to see how the system fits within the framework of todays society. I do not see how learning the katana, spear, chinese broadsword, or even the staff is more modern than the stick and knife.

There is the whole question of whether kenpo is a technique based or conceptual vehicle for self-defense. I believe the Tracy's tend toward the "technique" based, due to its endless variations on a technique that simply change one hand weapon. In a conceptual vehicle these questions are addressed through "web of knowledge" or another similar concept. In my opinion techique based systems are less "modern" than the conceptual vehicles. That being said, I've seen AK practitioners who learned the system by rote and didn't have an understanding of the concepts behind the techs.


Just to let you know, my lineage goes through Al Tracy.

Just my opinion,

Lamont
I think the two previous posts are very informative. The understanding of including a bad technique by the Tracy System is very profound in my case. The Kenpo system which i teach (Dragon Kenpo Karate) was Founded by Master Ed. Hutchison and in his original version, he includes a bad technique or 2 it seems on purpose to enlighten the practitioner on the unlimited number of variations of the systems techniques! This gives the stylist a learning experience of exploring what will actually work in an actual violent street attack situation! This gives the student the understanding to not just take a technique for what it is worth. But to examine it's motion, direction and effectiveness in application for street combat! I think it is a great learning tool for the instructor teaching as well as the student learning! My lineage traces thru both the Tracy and Parker Lineages. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!
 
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GouRonin

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I have been told that there are techniques in the Parker system that are only there for exploration and catagory completion.

I agree with Chiddyduck in that there will be techniques that one might not like but they serve a purpose. Also that each person will find techniques they might not like and they will be different for everyone.

So while these techniques might seem not to work they have a purpose. Maybe in teaching the ART aspect more than the MARTIAL aspect.
 
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RCastillo

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I was gonna say some things, but everybody else beat me to it, as always!

Hey, but the battle with the Goldendragon rages on!:boxing: ;)
 

Greggers69

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Heck who cares what someone else says. I still ain't gonna change my mind and switch schools or quit mine cause I am not mormon.:asian:
 
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Kirk

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Originally posted by Greggers69
Heck who cares what someone else says. I still ain't gonna change my mind and switch schools or quit mine cause I am not mormon.:asian:

Same here. What I study works for ME. I think a lot of it stems
from everyone, especially Americans IMO, wanting to be the
best. I remember the fights as a kids, because others didn't
realize that the Steelers were "the best", the Marines were "the
best", the South was "the best" and so on and so forth. Now we
all consciously know that that attitude is stupid, but I think
subconsciously that kid still pokes his head out now and again.
What I study is the best for me, and my instructor is the
best for me ... and that's all that matters.
 
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stacks

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Originally posted by Greggers69
Heck who cares what someone else says.
I agree :cheers:
do not get caught up in the politics of kenpo both have the best to offer. do not let somebody else sway your opinion. devote yourself to your opted art, do not get drawn into debate

stacks :asian:
 
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