The Thuggee connection...

[Cruentus]

I was reading the other day about the "Thuggee" cult in India. They were basically a cult of assassins who were best known for their use of the Garrote in the 19th century, however, they used a variety of assasination tactics. They were well versed in blade, a variety of weapons, and empty hand. The oldest written reference to the cult goes back as far as 1300's, but it is estimated to be at least as old as the Muslim Religion, and some estimate that the cult goes as far back as Before Christ. "Thuggee's" were both Hindu and Muslim by religion. This is where we get the word "Thug" from, as Thuggee members were called Thugs.

But, here is the interesting part...they payed homage to the goddess of destruction..."Kali" (yes, even the muslims).

Now, this is purely speculative, but, is it possible that the "Thuggee" cult influenced the Indonesian and Filipino Martial Arts, thus giving another possability to the origin of the term "Kali." Some assess that Kali is only a term for westerners, but the Sayoc Kali people assess that the word "Kali" was found in Sanskrit in the PI.

We know that People migrated from India/Southeast asia to Indonesia and the PI. It wouldn't be far fetched to find that assassins on the run from the law escaped to the islands, and brought their methods, which may have mixed with Martial Arts of the tribesmen. The Muslim religion exists in the PI do to migration.

Isn't it possible that "Paying homage to Kali" through MA Practice (as the Thug's did) could be mutated into "Doing Kali" or "Practicing Kali," thus coining a term for FMA during the prespanish days?

This is purely speculative, and I am not saying this is true for sure, but I just find the connection interesting.

Thoughts?

 

[Cruentus]

No hits on this one...eh?

 

[tshadowchaser]

An interesting point of view. Not sure if I disagree or agree but it raises some good qustions. Might be more for historians than martial artists

 

[Joe Eccleston]

Now, this is purely speculative, but, is it possible that the "Thuggee" cult influenced the Indonesian and Filipino Martial Arts, thus giving another possability to the origin of the term "Kali." Some assess that Kali is only a term for westerners, but the Sayoc Kali people assess that the word "Kali" was found in Sanskrit in the PI.

A great follow up question for this theory, would be to ask if "Kali" is indeed used in Indonesia, Malaysia, and the rest of the countries in between India and the Philippines. For example, Silat is used in the south of Philippines, and also used in Indonesia (also Malaysia?).

If "Kali" comes up in Indonesia, whose Hindu influences are still very much part in their culture (i.e. the island of Bali, architecture, old Hindu temples, etc) then this theory becomes somewhat solid. But, I believe the closest Indonesian word they came up with, that was related to fighting, was "tjakalekale", and I read somewhere that this was a war dance for one of the tribes there.

We know that People migrated from India/Southeast asia to Indonesia and the PI. It wouldn't be far fetched to find that assassins on the run from the law escaped to the islands, and brought their methods, which may have mixed with Martial Arts of the tribesmen. The Muslim religion exists in the PI do to migration.

There's actually another theory, based on linguistics, that theorizes that migration also came from south China. First inhabitants, were the "negritos", related to the aborigines of australia. They got to the Philippines, prior to it becoming an archipelago (land was still connected). They theorized this because of these peoples' lack of any words that have to do with seafaring (i.e. boat, sails, oar, etc.).

Second migrants came from Southern China, they were able to theorize this because academics found a lot of similarities/cognates in words and concepts in South China, the natives of Formosa (Taiwan), some islands in between, and in the Northern tip of the Philippines (Luzon). So, in this theory, the migration directly after the "negritos" came from the north, from china. Then came the last migration, through the south of the Philippines, from Indonesia/Malaysia.

So, if the Hindu influence, came on the last migration, from Indonesia, via the South of the Philippines, then we should be able to see the use of "Kali" scattered throughout Mindanao, the Visayas, and maybe to a lesser degree in the North.

The questions I would follow this up with would be, who uses Kali (which groups, or schools)? where they are from in the Philippines? and if their use of Kali is indeed original, meaning their use of this word came from the Philippines, not in the 1960s-1970s here in the US? so, after you weed out the ones who have just began using it here in the US, and figured out the ones who can trace their use of it in the Philippines, plot out where their Kali came from in the Philippines.

If the theory holds, we should see points of which Kali is used around Mindanao, connected to Borneo, to Java, and up, and also from Mindanao and up to the Visayas.

 

[Joe Eccleston]

An interesting point of view. Not sure if I disagree or agree but it raises some good qustions. Might be more for historians than martial artists

Chaser, academics are somewhat conceded when it comes to which subject matter to study. Simply put, they could care less about studying fighting arts, or systems, as they relate to history and culture. We have no choice but to do this ourselves (i.e. Don Draeger, and a very few others). Or else it will never get done, or atleast done right.

 

[Rainman]

I was reading the other day about the "Thuggee" cult in India. They were basically a cult of assassins who were best known for their use of the Garrote in the 19th century, however, they used a variety of assasination tactics. They were well versed in blade, a variety of weapons, and empty hand. The oldest written reference to the cult goes back as far as 1300's, but it is estimated to be at least as old as the Muslim Religion, and some estimate that the cult goes as far back as Before Christ. "Thuggee's" were both Hindu and Muslim by religion. This is where we get the word "Thug" from, as Thuggee members were called Thugs.

But, here is the interesting part...they payed homage to the goddess of destruction..."Kali" (yes, even the muslims).

Now, this is purely speculative, but, is it possible that the "Thuggee" cult influenced the Indonesian and Filipino Martial Arts, thus giving another possability to the origin of the term "Kali." Some assess that Kali is only a term for westerners, but the Sayoc Kali people assess that the word "Kali" was found in Sanskrit in the PI.

We know that People migrated from India/Southeast asia to Indonesia and the PI. It wouldn't be far fetched to find that assassins on the run from the law escaped to the islands, and brought their methods, which may have mixed with Martial Arts of the tribesmen. The Muslim religion exists in the PI do to migration.

Isn't it possible that "Paying homage to Kali" through MA Practice (as the Thug's did) could be mutated into "Doing Kali" or "Practicing Kali," thus coining a term for FMA during the prespanish days?

This is purely speculative, and I am not saying this is true for sure, but I just find the connection interesting.

Thoughts?

Depends of which region of the PI your are referencing. The Visayas are arnis and doce pares strong holds... I have a friend down there who trains both arnis and doce pares, they don't use the word kali. Don't know much about Luzon and Mindanao regions. There are many dialects down there as well, be really hard to trace the exact root of the word and to find others who would agree!

I read an article about thugs many years ago... found it very interesting but completely forgot about it until this thread. I remember reading about a particular man used for the article that had a colletion of silk scarves because their thing was to come from behind and strangle.