The Hidden Roots of Judaism and and Christianity

[elder999]

You do realize that a infinitisimal number of the Orthodox community do this, and that the Orthodox community in North America is roughly 10% of the total Jewish community. The 'ritual' is now mostly performed as a way to donate food for the needy at our most Holy festival.

Well, let's see then. If 25% of Brooklyn is Jewish, that's about 750,000 people. (Based on the 2.5 million being from the 2000 census, and having grown.)

10% of those would make the Orthodox 75,000 people. Call it 62, 500-75,000 (It's actually substantially more, but what the heck...)._

That would still be right in line with the 50,000 chickens claimed in the one article.

You come at it with a 'look at what Jews are still doing today' attitude.

Perhaps, but that's why it's called an example. I don't have an issue with the practice. Today, yesterday, tomorrow. Animals get killed. Animals get eaten. Sometimes they don't get eaten. Animals get prayed over. Animals get killed. Animals get eaten. Sometimes they don't get eaten.

I don't see too much difference.

Before you try to criticize, inform yourself. And newspaper articles are not the best of sources.

Where, exactly, have I even tried to "criticize?" Show me, and I'll gladly offer yet another apology.

 

[Tez3]

Elder,I still don't see the point of this post. I'm aware there are myriads of Christian sects from Quakers to Greek and Russian Orthodox, from Baptists to methodists to Roman Catholics, there's High church, Low church and everything in between but are you aware just how many different groups of Jews there are? There's Sephardi, Askanazi, Othodox, Ultra Orthodox, Modern Orthodox, Progressive Orthodox Reform, Conservative Reform, Liberal Reform, Chasidic ( Polish and Russian and the various groups under different rabbis thereof, at least ten that I can think of off the top of my head) Mizrahi, Lubavitch, Yemenite (both Baladi and Dor Draim),Romaniote, Masorti, Reconstructionist, Jewish Renewal,Humanistic Judaism and many, many more so why do you treat us as if we are all one big group? We all have our views on Judaism and I will tell you know it's unlikely you will ever find even ten Jews who will agree on what it is. It's unlikely that any two communties will share totally the same traditions and ways of doing things. Canuck and I will understand each other perfectly but we won't do or say the same things in services or in how we celebrate High Holydays. it's the way Judaism is. It's not one large religion it,s each small community doing it's thing if you like, that community may belong to a larger group or not. what one group thinks is right may not be what another things is right even down to what is Kosher, the law allows local traditions to prevail so what can be eaten in one place will not be eaten in another.
So, when you say Orthodox Jews who do you mean? which group of us is supposed to talk to which other group about chicken waving?

 

[jarrod]

tez & elder, you're two of my favorite people on here, please don't scrap

 

[punisher73]

Elder999 wrote:

And, in fact, while "the Lord" orders that all first born males are consecrated to Him (widely read as "sacrificed") the consecration that actually takes place is a Temple offering, an animal sacrifice made in the child's stead-in the case of Jesus, 2 doves.....

Ummm, no if you read the passages where is says something is consecrated, it means "to make and set apart as holy" to God. It does not mean to sacrifice something.

The Bible has never condoned human sacrifice. The two passages given to support that are taken out of context and meaning. In the second one, it has nothing to do with what God wanted it was one man making an improper oath that he didn't need to and then kept it.

 

[CanuckMA]

Well, let's see then. If 25% of Brooklyn is Jewish, that's about 750,000 people. (Based on the 2.5 million being from the 2000 census, and having grown.)

10% of those would make the Orthodox 75,000 people. Call it 62, 500-75,000 (It's actually substantially more, but what the heck...)._

That would still be right in line with the 50,000 chickens claimed in the one article.

New york's Jewish population is about 2 million. Brooklyn's is about 500,000. no more than 50,000 are Orthodox. Of those a tiny percentage will perform Kapporos with a live chicken. At this point most will just hold a chicken, say the required blessing and move on to the next. It has become a ritual to fulfill the commandment of charity. Because, unlike the strereotype, there is a significant portion of the Jewish population that lives below the poverty line. Kapporos has become a way to enable those Jews to celebrate our Holiest day with some dignity. Of course the press will focus on the few individuals who overdo it. That sells newspaper.

 

[elder999]

are you aware just how many different groups of Jews there are?

Yes, I am, Tez. I've actually written a paper or two on the subject. One was on the crypto-Jews of New Mexico and Mexico-those are descendents of 15th and 16th century Spanish immigrants who converted to Catholicism during the Inquisition, but kept their Judaism hid-now somewhat openly practicing what survives of their heritage.

so why do you treat us as if we are all one big group?

Where have I done that? I'd say, in fact, that only you and CanuckMA have done that.

which group of us is supposed to talk to which other group about chicken waving?

None Tez. No one is "supposed to talk" to another about it. I've posted before that it doesn't bother me. The only one it seems to bother is you.I don't think it's something anyone should "do something about." I didn't ever say that "all Jews" do it. I didn't ever say it was bad. I've offered no judgements-in fact, I only used it as an example to support the main theme of my post, and it was one small paragraph in the entire thing that you've seized upon as a point of contention. Over the course of two pages your combined reactions have ranged from, No they don't, and you shouldn't say such a thing because the next thing you know, people will say we eat babies, to Well, those are just nutters-kabbalist posers, really, to Well, yes, but only a very few.... to, Well, it's really just a charity program-a way to put chicken on the tables of poor people.

In fact, the only ones who seem to have any judgement about the practice at all are you two, and mostly that judgement seems to be that I shouldn't have brought it up. It's okay to say the Holy Eucharist has its roots in cannibalism and sacrifice-at least, it seems to be based on the number of outraged Catholics posting here. It's okay to say that santeros are Catholics, and sacrifice chickens, goats and lambs to pray and entreat the saints, though, admittedly, it's far too easy for most Catholics and other Christians to distance themselves from the practices, and to even say that they are not Christian in any way. No one has argued that, though-they haven't said anything. You, on the other hand, have seized on one small paragraph in a larger theme and chosen to use it as a subject of contention. The only other member of your tribe that I know to have posted here pretty much tried to tell you, Yeah, they do that, Tez. While I gave the readers digest version, I haven't in any way misrepresented the rite, or passed any judgement against it-in fact, the only things I've had to say were favorable.

Sujects like these are, as evidenced by other posts I've made, more than an idle curiousity. I have a degree in religious studies-it was the first subject I studied in college,more than 30 years ago, now. It's a subject of interest-one that others on this board seem to share from time to time, and I share with them from time to time. It continues to be a "weird hobby" of mine, one of many. While I recognize that such subjects can be charged, and sometimes rattle people's cages, that's never exactly been my intention-I want to have discussions-some just like this one-others maybe not so charged-because my basic beliefs say that as long as it's not hurting a fellow human being, when people get together and pray, whatever form it takes, it's a good thing. And, if we don't try to know and understand these differences and the roots behind them, they'll only stay "differences" instead of what I believe them to be: different flavors of the same fruit-man's innate urge to express a connection to something greater than himself, and that's something that I will alwaysbring up and ask questions-I have lots, and lots of questions.

Gets me into trouble, sometimes, always has. :lol:

I'm aware that some of the arguments about kaparos stem from its apparent relationship to Temple worship, and I have a question that's somewhat related to this thread: there are movements within the Fundamentalist Christian community as well as the Jewish communities to build a third temple in Jerusalem.Should such an event come to pass, do you think it would bring the revival of Temple worship, and animal sacrifice?

 

[elder999]

New york's Jewish population is about 2 million. Brooklyn's is about 500,000. no more than 50,000 are Orthodox. Of those a tiny percentage will perform Kapporos with a live chicken..

I don't think your numbers are quite right, but I can certainly offer no argument to the rest of your post-nor would I. You don't have to defend the rite to me or anyone else. Nor, for that matter, do I think that you or anyone should.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Pretty sure you're the only one who's mentioned Islam.

Don't get peanut butter on my chocolate... :lol:

I'm aware i'm the only one who has mentioned the amazing coincidence that this continues the line of argument about Christianity and Judaism from the now defunct Islam thread......but just because i'm the only one who has mentioned it, doesn't answer the question.

It's almost as if......this whole thread is a response about the.....ORIGINS of ISLAM!

Clever.

 

[elder999]

I'm aware i'm the only one who has mentioned the amazing coincidence that this continues the line of argument about Christianity and Judaism from the now defunct Islam thread......but just because i'm the only one who has mentioned it, doesn't answer the question.

How's this then?: no.

 

[sgtmac_46]

How's this then?: no.

Ahuh......then may I ask what brought this subject to the forefront of your mind?

Because it kind of seems strange to me that we are going to be able to continue to onslaught on Christianity and Judaism portion of the Islam thread.....while the original discussion of Islam is now side-stepped.......that's certainly convenient.

Perhaps you're right.....an amazing coincidence that happens to mate chance with fortune.

Then there's "Is America a 'Christian Nation'" which was a question pulled DIRECTLY from the Islam thread......


Not that it bothers me discussing any of it......but it hardly seems the same since the MAIN part of the conversation has been permanently severed from the topic.

 

[elder999]

Ahuh......then may I ask what brought this subject to the forefront of your mind?

You may indeed.

The wife bought me this book for Christmas. I read it at lunch the other day. It wasn't very good, but it does cover an interest of mine. My family partially owes the growth of our fortunes to an incident of cannibalism that took place in the early 19th century, and, as I've said, religion is an interest of mine itself.

Because it kind of seems strange to me that we are going to be able to continue to onslaught on Christianity and Judaism portion of the Islam thread.....while the original discussion of Islam is now side-stepped.......that's certainly convenient.

Don't get your chocolate on my peanut butter. :lol:

Then there's "Is America a 'Christian Nation'" which was a question pulled DIRECTLY from the Islam thread......

Hey, you got my peanut butter on my chocolate! :lfao:

Not that it bothers me discussing any of it......but it hardly seems the same since the MAIN part of the conversation has been permanently severed from the topic.

Well, they're clearly different topics. I think the thread you're speaking of is defunct. To bring it up here constitutes thread drift of the worst sort. Again, I'll say "no" ; one thing has nothing to do with the other. I've posted my reasons for starting the thread, and my a review of other posts of mine would demonstrate the truth of that. Sorry, you're wrong in this case mac.......

 

[CanuckMA]

Elder,

If you don't get it, then so be it.

You start a thread entitled 'the hidden roots of Judaism and Xtianity' where you phrase it like you have uncovered some deep dark secrets, throwing in animal and human sacrifice and cannibalism. Then you claim that you don't care, it was just a question.

If you can't grasp why Jews get suspicious of such actions, then you know nothing of our communities and history. Our practices are always under attack by some well meaning group of folks, it's not antisemetism, the practices are just barbaric they say. Current popular focii is on ritual slaughter and circumsision.

Anybody who reads the Bible knows that Judaism had animal sacrifices. Nowhere is there human sacrifice, and 2 out of context quotes does not a proof make. There is also nothing to substantiate that Holy Eucharist is rooted in cannibalism.

Try coming at it another way. Ask questions instead of spouting specious facts.

 

[elder999]

Elder,

If you don't get it, then so be it.

I get it-you've been persecuted and oppressed in the past, and have every reason to be wary of it happening again. That's not what I'm doing.

You start a thread entitled 'the hidden roots of Judaism and Xtianity' where you phrase it like you have uncovered some deep dark secrets, throwing in animal and human sacrifice and cannibalism. Then you claim that you don't care, it was just a question.

Guilty. Made you look, didn't it, though?

And I don't "claim" that I don't care-I really don't care. I haven't (for the umpteenth time ) offered any judgement one way or the other.

. Current popular focii is on ritual slaughter and circumsision.

Again, I don't care. I'm circumcised, not that you need to know, and I don't think for a minute that I was traumatized by the experience. I hunt, and slaughter my own livestock, so that doesn't confront me one way or the other, either. And, as I've offered, one of the ceremonnies I participate in makes circumcision seem pretty tame, even for an adult, and is, for some, about as gory as ritual slaughter might be.

Anybody who reads the Bible knows that Judaism had animal sacrifices. Nowhere is there human sacrifice, and 2 out of context quotes does not a proof make. There is also nothing to substantiate that Holy Eucharist is rooted in cannibalism.

Lots and lots and lots of books and papers have been written to discuss the matter of the Eucharist and cannibalism. The concept is as old as the rite itself. As I posted earlier, theophagy is a universal religious concept that isn't exclusive to Christianity at all, and in many instances, it did entail actual cannibalism.That the notion was unkown to the people of the time seems ludicrous, especially given the likely Roman and obvious Mithraic influences upon it...

As for human sacrifice in the Bible, the two quotes (there are also instances of cannibalism, but we'll leave that aside for the moment) open a variety of questions about the heathen practices of the early Hebrews and other tribes of the region: What of Abraham's willingness to do such a thing? What of Isaac's willingness to go with his father? If it was a test, what was God "testing," or was it a test for Abraham's own awareness? What of Jeptha's willingness to fulfill his promise to the Lord? Were there mechanisms to not fulfill this promise? If there were, why didn't he use them? What of his daughter's willingness to go along with the promise? All in all, these questions lead to the inevitable notion that human sacrificial rites weren't unheard of, anthropologically speaking. Ditto the prohibitions against such things-why forbid it if it hasn't taken place?

Try coming at it another way. Ask questions instead of spouting specious facts.

Didn't spout any "specious facts," I'm pretty sure there is no such thing.On the other hand, I did ask a question:

Anybody who reads the Bible knows that Judaism had animal sacrifices

I'm aware that some of the arguments about kaparos stem from its apparent relationship to Temple worship, and I have a question that's somewhat related to this thread: there are movements within the Fundamentalist Christian community as well as the Jewish communities to build a third temple in Jerusalem.Should such an event come to pass, do you think it would bring the revival of Temple worship, and animal sacrifice?

I'm pretty certain that the people trying to bring about a new Temple have read the Bible. I even could say something about the apocalyptic motivations of the Christians involved, but I have to reiterate the question, and wonder if they recognize this particular implication?

Not that I would actually care, one way or the other if it did. I'm just asking.

 

[Tez3]

Elder, I think perhaps one of your hobbies is posting up religious theories designed to get at least a couple of people biting. hence Sgtmacs points about this being a continuation of other religious points. i also think vanity creeps in at atimes because you love to tell us 'that you have written several papers' etc, well good for you but as the saying goes, until you walk a mile in a man's shoes......
I have to say the reason I answer is not for you to read and answer but for others who may be ignorant about Judaism and may believe things such as the blood libel.
You say you understand we have been persecuted in the past and are fearful of being persecuted again but in fact Jews have never stopped being persecuted. We have people who are in fear of their lives still in many countries, fleeing to Israel has proved impossible so far though efforts continue to try to get them out of their respective countries. there are Jews in such countires as Pakistan who may be the smallest community in the world but are in hiding,this pattern is repeated all over the middle east. Former communist countires are also beoming more and more anti semitic not that it had ever gone away. In the 'free' world anti semitisim is on the rise, there are increasing attacks on Jews and Jewish communities so yes it's our duty to guard agaisnt attacks that come from anywhay, it's the one thing Jews everywhere share, the fact that we are condemned for merely being Jews, even agnostic and atheist Jews suffer.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/03/14/anti-semitism/index.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/07/arts/kimmel.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7534243.stm

This is just the tip of the iceberg. On the BBC link look at how many attacks there have been last year on my community in Leeds alone. Just because we are paranoid doesn't mean to say people aren't out to get us!

You didn't answer my question though, which Jewish 'orthodox' community is waving chickens around? who is their Rebbe?

On the subject of circumcison, we had a mohel many years ago who whenever he did a circumcision his assistant would keep the foreskin, when the venerable gentleman finally retired he was presented with a wallet made form the foreskins, when he rubbed it though, it became a suitcase . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:ultracool



it's a joke people!!!!!

 

[elder999]

Elder, I think perhaps one of your hobbies is posting up religious theories designed to get at least a couple of people biting.

Hmmm...it wouldn't be a "discussion" without " a couple of people biting," so maybe you're right.

. i also think vanity creeps in at atimes because you love to tell us 'that you have written several papers' etc

Well, I won't deny my vanity-but I've lots of other things to brag on, and other places to do so....I've also got more than a few that I just can't brag on, and that's galling at times...
....the reason I bring up writing the papers, etc.-at least as far as this goes-is just to demonstrate that it's more than idle curiousity, passing interest, an accusation or an attempt to titillate or be provocative-though those last sometimes do wind up being an element of what I'm trying to do. I really do spend part of my spare time thinking about and investigating stuff like this-and my dad's dead, I can't talk about three quarters of it with my mom: she actually put her hand over my mouth when I posited the notion that Jesus might have been married because scripture calls him "rabbi"! And most of you are, outside of work, some of the most intelligent people I've found to discuss things like this with-that's not flattery, that's fact.

well good for you but as the saying goes, until you walk a mile in a man's shoes......

That's mocassins, actually. :lol:

You say you understand we have been persecuted in the past and are fearful of being persecuted again but in fact Jews have never stopped being persecuted.

Man's inhumanity to his fellow man is a universal thing for almost all of us. "Reasons," after all, are what we used to justify Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

You didn't answer my question though, which Jewish 'orthodox' community is waving chickens around? who is their Rebbe?

Actually, I posted the name, address and webpage of one of the rabbis involved. I also know the Lubavitchers, at least in the U.S. do this, as well as other Hasids, but the "who" of it is neither here nor there-I wouldn't be surprised if falashas/Beta Israel didn't do this and maybe even more....in fact, now that I've had the notion, I'll have to find out.

I'll keep it to myself this time, though...:lol:

On the subject of circumcison, we had a mohel many years ago who whenever he did a circumcision his assistant would keep the foreskin, when the venerable gentleman finally retired he was presented with a wallet made form the foreskins, when he rubbed it though, it became a suitcase . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:ultracool

:lol:

Of course, now that I've asked a question (rather than implying one by offering the question for discussion) no one is even trying to answer it....oh,well....

 

[Tez3]

Elder, I love you dearly as a brother but do give me time to post answers to your questons!
I doubt Jesus was married btw, for crying out loud he was Jewish, do you think his mother would have thought any girl good enough for her prince!!
"Ah all I went through when you were born, gave you the best years of my life and you want go off and leave your poor mother for this girl?" Even G-d is helpless in the face of a Jewish mother, He knows when he's beaten.

I do worry when things are posted about Jews, not so much things that are in a negative light, such as the recent Gaza situation which is in the open and can be discussed as it is but the things such as the blood libel and cannabalism which can be used against us slyly. It can be reposted on the internet as 'truth', printed off and used as a 'teaching' tool. It's also a great part of my job to be paranoid, the government pays me well!


I used the word shoes because like you I can't spell moccasins lol!

 

[elder999]

Elder, I love you dearly

And I love you back! :lol:

I doubt Jesus was married btw, for crying out loud he was Jewish, do you think his mother would have thought any girl good enough for her prince!!

Well, funnily enough-if you're not familiar with the wedding at Cana, it's called Jesus's first miracle. He turned water into wine at a wedding, because his mom told him They need more wine. Of course, the groom's family was at one time responsible for music, food and liquor at traditional Jewish weddings, but....:lol:

"Ah all I went through when you were born, gave you the best years of my life and you want go off and leave your poor mother for this girl?" Even G-d is helpless in the face of a Jewish mother, He knows when he's beaten.

....you may just have a point. :lol:

I do worry when things are posted about Jews, not so much things that are in a negative light, such as the recent Gaza situation which is in the open and can be discussed as it is but the things such as the blood libel and cannabalism which can be used against us slyly.

Not to worry-ignorance can try and masquerade as the truth all it likes; it's still recognized as what it is....

It's also a great part of my job to be paranoid, the government pays me well!

I know the feeling....kinda sucks, don't it?

I used the word shoes because like you I can't spell moccasins lol!

Apparently, I can't either! :lfao:

 

[Tez3]

Anyway our roots aren't hidden they are touched up regularly... ( I should be as lucky).
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews157228.html

 

[CanuckMA]

I doubt Jesus was married btw, for crying out loud he was Jewish, do you think his mother would have thought any girl good enough for her prince!!
"Ah all I went through when you were born, gave you the best years of my life and you want go off and leave your poor mother for this girl?" Even G-d is helpless in the face of a Jewish mother, He knows when he's beaten.

Proof the Jesus was Jewish:

He lived at home until he was 33
He went into his father's business
He thought his mother was a virgin.

Gut Shabbos

 

[elder999]

Ezekiel and Jeremiah both make complaints about the past instances of human sacrifice in Israel and Judea, when the Hebrews on occasion embraced the pagan practices of their neighbors, and there are verses in various other books of the Old Testament that show that these things are part of the narrative. Ezekiel makes the most interesting statement, though, when speaking on behalf of the Lord:

20And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter 21that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them

25Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; 26and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.30Wherefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and go astray after their detestable things? 31When you offer your gifts and sacrifice your sons by fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, says the Lord GOD, I will not be inquired of by you.(Ezek. 20:20-31)

So here we have the lord saying that he directed Israel to offer their first born, by fire, that he might horrify them……interesting.