FMA origins

arnisandyz

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Thats a good point about other (more advanced) civilizations encountering fighting styles of the PI to try and determine how far the native fighting system evolved before outside influences. I think the first recorded writings were of the Spanish (I may be wrong) who wrote of swords, shields, knives, spears, rocks attached to rope (the yoyo) and sticks, blowguns, and bows (I'm writing this from memory, so i may not have all the facts strait). If this is the case, of course many outside influences had already reached the PI before the Spanish recordings.
 
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Wingman

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I think the first recorded writings were of the Spanish (I may be wrong) who wrote of swords, shields, knives, spears, rocks attached to rope (the yoyo) and sticks, blowguns, and bows (I'm writing this from memory, so i may not have all the facts strait).

... and may I add "lantaka" or bamboo cannon.
 

arnisandyz

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A couple of years ago a distant cousin visiting us from PI showed me how to make, what he then called a lantaka. Its was basically (in its modern state) a noisemaker Filipinos use in celebrations consisting of a six pack of aluminum cans (we used beer cans and of course had to empty them:p), the ends cut open and attached end to end with tape ( I think the bottom can wasn't opened up). a small pinhole is punched into the bottom can and injected with lighter fluid then lit.Seemed a bit dangerous at the time!

The way I understand it, this was a pretty crude weapon like the musket loader, not very accurate and probably many exploded on the person shooting it. Maybe thats why FMA developed into a highly skilled blade art! No one wanted to shoot it! Anyways, i'm guessing gunpowder was "borrowed" from the Chinese. Not to take anything away from Filipino inginuity, but why invent something when you can get it already made.

As a side note, I remember reading somewhere someone's essay on FMA. He said the next logical transition for FMA would be Firearm tactics (I think he meant with Glocks and not lataka!!)
 
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sweeper

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had no clue they used hand cannons predating the spanish in the phillipines.

Now for another question... I havn't realy been practicing FMA that seriously and havn't researched it to much depth but one thing that seems to be missing (from what I have seen at least ;-p) from phillipino military history is accounts of phillipino military tactics when fighting in large groups. For example in the story about megelon(sp) being killed by lapulapu weren't there 1500 phillipinoes waiting for 49 portugues? well I assume they weren't just lined up, and I assume (though a baseless assuption) that it wasn't common to rally 1500 soldiers for combat. But in phillipino combat involving more than a handfull of fighters fighting another handfull how is combat directed? Or is it at all even? considering the terrain in some regions I could understand if battals were esencialy groups of small "squads" fighting but like I said I know nothing about it.
 

arnisandyz

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Maybe they fought similar to the "bolo battallions" fought in WW2. With the best fighter at the point, gaining an entry cut (and/or disarm) then moving on to the next, leaving the wounded for the people behind him to finish off. I read about this in Leo Giron's book. Also while at a seminar Chris Sayoc's crew gave a demo of the Sayoc family fighting strategy, again, putting the best fighter in front and using the others (sometimes women and children) to reload the knives of the pointman, finishing off downed opponents and throwing blades. But it all centers on the point. I wouldn't count out jungle warefare strategies similar to the Vietnamese. I also understand many battles happen by way of execution, sneeking in at night and ending it quietly.

The idea of the pointman could explain how LapuLapu got to Magellean before anyone else, just a guess.
 

thekuntawman

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sweeper, you wrote

Hmm.. If Eskrima/Arnis did not develop form a phillipino mother art than where did they come from? I am aware of the spanish influence in terminology and I could see how some of the aproach to teaching could have had a spanish fencing influence (like the use of angles to describe an attack) however the genneral strategies and tactics of phillipino wepon fighting is quite diffrent from european wepon fighting and spanish wepon fighting. So it doesn't realy look like it was derived from spanish fighting systems so where did it come from if not something that was already there?

the philippine martial arts develop just like the fighting styles of any other place, that people take the best fighting techniques they can find, and then adopted it into his own technique. the story of all fighting arts coming to one art, or one man, those are stories, like ones each culture has for where man came from. the history goes back to far to say exactly what the history is, especially what date it goes to.

the philippine people dint write down to much because facts about history like dates, who did what and things like that are not important to us. just like how our silat is different from indonesian because of what is important to the filipino is different from what indonesians like (we dont practice langka and form). when we trace history, we usually go back only one or two generations, and our own history, when we talk to the younger ones. some stories, like the ones with a morale to it, or the history of a certain person or thing that happened (another morale), these things get passed down.

now the chinese and japanese trace there own history back in books and stories, but the filipino is not too interested in that, when it comes to a fighting technique. what is important, is does it work, how did the last few generations developed this style, and what can i learn about them that can make me a better fighter. when my teachers talked to me about the past, they went to how the art developed in the last generation and then his, and why he believed it is a superior fighting technique, then like all teachers, one day they tell you to go out and live your own stories to tell your kids and students.
 
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sweeper

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well I would agree that in practice it doens't matter how a martial art came to be, just how you apply it and how effective it is. But it is kind of interesting.. If when the spanish came blade fighting wasn't prevelant than in around 300 years a rather developed sword fighting system came to be..
[qoute]the philippine martial arts develop just like the fighting styles of any other place, that people take the best fighting techniques they can find, and then adopted it into his own technique.[/qoute]
Most every other part of the world that has system of sword/blade fighting has had a fairly long history of use of bladed weapons, wether japanese, chinese, or itallian blades have been used in those regions for over 2000 years, the weapons evolved and so did the fighting methods.

Point being it's just rather interesting how quickly sword and knife fighting evolved in the phillipines.
 

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