The Thousand Form Challenge

[Monkey Turned Wolf103]

It's actually ok What Monkey Turned Wolf said is a real concern, having some way to show accountability in a way that is perceived both as 'practical/for-purpose', also 'safe' and 'convenient'.

I want to clarify that a large bit of this is the convenience angle. I live in a not-so-spacious apartment. I can do my forms out in a grassy area nearby, which I do, but I wouldn't have an easy way to record there. I do have a room in my apartment that I can clear, then record from my laptop, but that involves me moving multiple pieces of furniture, which I know I won't consistently do every day. So I only do it if there's a specific purpose for the day, which normally involves answering a question someone asked here that can't be explained via typing.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf103]

I think a lot of the arguments here come from people being over-reactive. I see 3 different statements here:
1. Appledog posted on multiple sites. This got pointed out by others, since he didn't mention it. I don't think any harm was meant by them pointing it out, but he seems to disagree. His response then made other people mad.
1 solution: Appledog has acknowledged this. Not sure why anyone else needs to continue focusing (beyond potentially mentioning the site), or why he should continue being upset it was pointed out.
2. Appledog mentioned the challenge, but didn't mention if he would participate.
2 solution: Appledog has since mentioned he'd participate. So that point is null.
3. Appledog is making pointed comments about others not wanting to participate.
3 solution: There are multiple reasons not to participate (one of which I mentioned in my last post, but also safety if you don't want your face out there, concerns about being seen as representing your style, and just personal comfort levels). If this is meant to be a challenge for personal growth, someone not participating shouldn't be held against them.

 

[isshinryuronin]

There are multiple reasons not to participate

1000 forms in a year challenge - it's not a challenge for me, it's my regular workout schedule, averaging at least 3 forms/day average. Some days I only do a couple, others 6-10. And I've been doing this for decades, just a habit.

An important consideration is HOW the forms are being done. Are they done half-a**ed or is each one done with a specific goal in mind: Speed, power, form, biomechanics, flow, application, breathing, footwork, etc. with an effort to improve? Being self-aware is important when on your own - you must not only be the executing student, but the observant knowing teacher as well.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf103]

1000 forms in a year challenge - it's not a challenge for me, it's my regular workout schedule, averaging at least 3 forms/day average. Some days I only do a couple, others 6-10. And I've been doing this for decades, just a habit.

An important consideration is HOW the forms are being done. Are they done half-a**ed or is each one done with a specific goal in mind: Speed, power, form, biomechanics, flow, application, breathing, footwork, etc. with an effort to improve? Being self-aware is important when on your own - you must not only be the executing student, but the observant knowing teacher as well.

I think this is a really good point. I could very easily do a form, just sloppily get through it, to keep a 'streak' going. After a point, doing that every day would have significantly less benefit than doing the same form twice a week, but putting my effort into it and using it to consciously improve my martial arts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang102]

3 solution: There are multiple reasons not to participate ...

To me, form is for teaching and learning only. Form is not for training. Also, I don't believe if you train form 1000 times, you will become a good fighter.

A form may contain many logical sequences such as: a1,a2,a3,b1,b2,c1,c2,c3,c4 where

- a3 and b1 have no logic connection.
- b2 and c1 also have no logic connection.

It's better to train

- a1,a2,a3 1000 time,
- b1,b2 1000 times,
- c1,c2,c3,c4 1000 times,

than to train

- a1,a2,a3,b1,b2,c1,c2,c3,c4 1000 times.

Also, if a form contains "front kick, straight punch" combo, you should also train "side kick, hook punch" combo, "crescent kick, hammer fist" combo, and ...

In other words, if a form tells you that a table has 4 legs, and the form only shows you 1 leg, you have to figure out the other 3 legs by yourself.

Here is an example of to repeat a1,a2,a3 left and right over and over. I do believe this is the proper way to train.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf103]

To me, form is for teaching and learning only. Form is not for training. Also, I don't believe if you train form 1000 times, you will become a good fighter.

If this is true, then what are you teaching when you teach the form?

A form may contain many logical sequences such as: a1,a2,a3,b1,b2,c1,c2,c3,c4 where

- a3 and b1 have no logic connection.
- b2 and c1 also have no logic connection.

It's better to train

- a1,a2,a3 1000 time,
- b1,b2 1000 times,
- c1,c2,c3,c4 1000 times,

than to train

- a1,a2,a3,b1,b2,c1,c2,c3,c4 1000 times.

When you train a1,a2,a3,b1,b2,c1,c2,c3,c4 1000 times you are training a1,a2,a3 1000 time, b1,b2 1000 times, and c1,c2,c3,c4 1000 times. You just aren't taking a break between them.

That said, I also don't know of anyone who's ever said no to a student wanting to focus on just a specific part of a form (a1,a2,a3), and practice that. It's an easy way to practice all 3 drills, rather than just one.

Also, if a form contains "front kick, straight punch" combo, you should also train "side kick, hook punch" combo, "crescent kick, hammer fist" combo, and ...

In other words, if a form tells you that a table has 4 legs, and the form only shows you 1 leg, you have to figure out the other 3 legs by yourself.

No form is claiming to teach you everything you need to know. No drill is either. If I have someone drill jab-cross-hook-uppercut, it doesn't mean that hey shouldn't also know jab-low hook-high hook-clinch. But the fact that that second combination exists, doesn't invalidate the first.

Here is an example of to repeat a1,a2,a3 left and right over and over. I do believe this is the proper way to train.

Not the move itself, but the concept in your video is essentially the concept behind 1 pinan/pinyon in a lot of karate/tkd styles.

 

[Kung Fu Wang102]

If this is true, then what are you teaching when you teach the form?

I don't teach form any more. I only teach "partner drill".

When students train partner drill without partner, they get "solo drill".

If students link many solo drills in sequence, they get "solo form".

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf103]

I don't teach form any more. I only teach "partner drill".

When students train partner drill without partner, they get "solo drill".

If students link many solo drills in sequence, they get "solo form".

As you mention, link that second video five times together and it's a drill. Have some block/dodge into it, then perform it 3 times. The turn, do a different block/dodge into it and perform it 3 more times. Turn, a new entrance then the same technique, one more time... you've come up with a form.

The form now lets them train the technique 12 times, while teaching them 4 different ways to enter it. And is very easy for someone to solo train even in a limited space. Bonus of that particular technique is it can be added as part of the warmup to a class (I like using throws and sweeps at the beginning of a class as a replacement to traditional stretching).

 

[isshinryuronin]

When you train a1,a2,a3,b1,b2,c1,c2,c3,c4 1000 times you are training a1,a2,a3 1000 time, b1,b2 1000 times, and c1,c2,c3,c4 1000 times. You just aren't taking a break between them.

It should be understood that a1, a2, and a3 is a combination to deal with a specific self-defense scenario such as a front choke, wrist grab or a punch. b1, b2 will be a combo to deal with a different attack, and the same with c1, c2... In traditional karate kata, each scenario (a, b, c, d...) is a stand-alone situation that is basically unrelated to the others. They are just more or less randomly linked together in the form to give a bunch of self-defense senarios to practice.

This is not to say kata has no theme, they often do. The a, b, c... combos may share certain characteristics. 0ne kata may be dealing with the attacks mostly by evasion, another kata may stress power strike counters, another, joint locks and yet another, many directional changes. Study several kata and you have several strategies on how to deal with a specific attack.

that said, I also don't know of anyone who's ever said no to a student wanting to focus on just a specific part of a form

Considering the above description of kata there is no reason the individual combo series in kata cannot be extracted from the form and be practiced or drilled solo or against partners. IMO, this is a much-underused method in the great majority of dojo. One reason is that the actual application of the series was unknown, the form's bunkai lost over time, at least in the West and even Japan where the teaching of the kata's combat application was replaced by form over function. I think this is why it is rarely done, and kata was seen to be separate from kihon and kumite. In fact, kata, kihon and kumite are all the same thing in my view, karate merely practiced with 3 different methodologies.

 

[Same Trick48]

The TJQ form as solo form practice is different from its original Shaolin method of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 …and so on step by step posture method .

The traditional long TJQ form is done in one unbroken flow with intent and awareness in six directions simultaneously, a kind of omnisituational and multifunctional awareness practice in one mind.

As such, skill can’t really be observed and judged in the shapes of forms/postures alone, however if the traditional form is done in its intended pace one can observe practitioners awareness/mental focus durability/strength.

To truly observe if the practitioners TJQ form performance skill level is accurate it must be in free settings outside and away from the form….. That’s the correct and truest challenge of a 1000(TJQ) forms.

 

[Prince_Alarming103]

I was going to post something but I'm worried it might be...ahem...bad form

 

[_Simon_102]

I was going to post something but I'm worried it might be...ahem...bad form

Too late! Already posted something!

Badum.. tsshhhhhhh!

 

[Kung Fu Wang102]

When you train a1,a2,a3,b1,b2,c1,c2,c3,c4 1000 times you are training a1,a2,a3 1000 time, b1,b2 1000 times, and c1,c2,c3,c4 1000 times. You just aren't taking a break between them.

The mind set is different. When you train

- a drill such as "side kick, spin back fist", you will have an imaginary opponent in front of you. You intend to use your side kick to set up your spin back fist and knock down your opponent.
- the whole form, you may be in a daydream mode, and you may just do it for health and not do it for combat. It's difficult to have an imaginary opponent in front of you when you train the whole form.

There is a big difference between 1000 combat training and 1000 health training. A traffic cop may direct traffic for 20 years. He will never become a good fighter. The reason is simple, when he direct traffic, he doesn't have an imaginary opponent in his head.

 

[isshinryuronin]

the whole form, you may be in a daydream mode, and you may just do it for health and not do it for combat. It's difficult to have an imaginary opponent in front of you when you train the whole form.

This is very true. It is difficult to maintain a martial spirit as you do multiple forms. But it's equally difficult to do it while doing dozens of drill reps IMO. It takes intent and discipline to maintain a martial spirit in practice. You have to imagine an opponent in front of you during drills or forms to maximize TMA advancement. The ability to do all this IMO is one of the things that separates the serious martial artist and one who dabbles or seeks other benefits from TMA.

 

[Kung Fu Wang102]

The ability to do all this IMO is one of the things that separates the serious martial artist and one who dabbles or seeks other benefits from TMA.

The most valuable lesson that I have ever learned in my life is when my SC teacher lived in my house. One day I trained the SC form "diagonal strike" that he taught me. This form is simple. I step in and strike one of my palm 45 degree forward with the other hand holding fist next to my waist. When my SC teacher saw me doing that. He came to me and asked what I was doing. I told him I was training "diagonal strike" that he taught me.

He then said, "Form is for teaching and learning only. Form is not for training. When you train 'diagonal strike', if you intend to use it as 'knee seize', you need to drop the other hand down to pick up your opponent's leg. If you intend to use it for 'slant cut', you need to use your leg to hook your opponent's leg up."

After that day, Form training started to have a new definition for me. I need to modify the traditional form to fit my application.

 

[windwalker099102]

After that day, Form training started to have a new definition for me. I need to modify the traditional form to fit my application.

. agree..

Understanding for some things, until one has reached a certain level, they won't work...Not everyone can reach the same place...but still be quite good at
the place they've reached....

People sometimes say Taiji has no legs — no real kicks — it’s all there just practiced in a different way.

The teacher’s showing 并劲 (Bìng Jìn) expressed as 短劲 (Duǎn Jìn) — short power.

It’s not the long power (长劲, Cháng Jìn) usually shown in demos, but a compact expression that’s normally not practiced openly until a certain level of understanding is reached.
Without this understanding, the issuing just becomes like all other CMA — externalized fa-jin (发劲).

 

[Prince_Alarming103]

I'd kinda like to do this, but I already do 5-6 forms a day (kata, rather) as part of my daily workout. I think we should have a harder challenge.

 

[Prince_Alarming103]

We could do our favourite form (Kushanku, no question) a few thousand times in some way shape or form?

 

[Badhabits]

I can't see how a kata can be brought to life, so to speak, without envisioning an opponent. Without that, how do your movements even have any intent? Perform the same kata with and without visualizing doing something to another person...your performances of the same kata will probably even look different.