Kittan Bachika
Purple Belt
The standard downward block in Tae Kwon Do and Karate has many applications. But what is the primary application? Is it to block a kick? I have never seen it used during sparring.
The primary application of a downward block
- Thread starter Kittan Bachika
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Don't focus on "what" the block is designed for; look at where it protects. The downward block isn't aimed at stopping kicks anymore than an upward block is only for punches; each block protects against attacks to particular areas on your body. The downward block will cover attacks, whether hand, foot, elbow, or whatever, to the area below your elbow/sternum and above where your fist hangs naturally, usually just a bit below the groin.
I learned the downward block in both shotokan and kyokushin, and didnt use them for kumite in either case. I had on instructor inform how the downward block is a good strike to the groin, and the action of chambering a punch and blocking meaning the chambered hand grabs the enemies hand and pulls it to the side of your rib (where the chambered fist goes) and the downward block was a strike/arm break to the elbow of the grabbed-extended arm.
I have always seen karate blocks and punches as exaggerated for training purposes. Like a sprinter who does wide exaggerated sprints to push the muscles further so that the minimal less stressful work of a normal sprint is easier. This is usually what I believe in, considering how many schools drill this block so much yet dont use it much during live kumite.
But then again it could just very well be a block, one of many in a system. Three step sparring practice considers it a block.
I have always seen karate blocks and punches as exaggerated for training purposes. Like a sprinter who does wide exaggerated sprints to push the muscles further so that the minimal less stressful work of a normal sprint is easier. This is usually what I believe in, considering how many schools drill this block so much yet dont use it much during live kumite.
But then again it could just very well be a block, one of many in a system. Three step sparring practice considers it a block.
In Isshin-Ryu, we cross the center when blocking down to either side, so the block can block low-to-medium height punches as well as kicks, trips, or sweeps. It can also be a punch, as mentioned, and it can be a feint too. It can also be used to turn the opponent - low block a right-hand punch with your right, it turns the opponent away from you and gives you his side and back - lots of goodies there.
In addition, the low block can be the first part of a trap-and-pull where you block a punch low, then lay your other hand over the opponent's arm (and the opponent's arm/fist is over your blocking arm) and then lock it in, and pull towards your obi. Brings the opponent down and in towards you, and you open their face like a leaky paint bucket with an elbow, or step in and take out the groin with a knee or kick, or sweep the inside, whatever you like; they belong to you now. You can't camp out on the block, it's got to be bang-bang, block, trap, pull in one fluid motion, but if you do it right, they are off-balance, leaning forward, giving you their face like 'ta-da' for you to push in their mush. And believe me, I've had my mush pushed in. No fun.
Every time I practice a basic exercise or kata that has low blocks in it and I wonder what on earth it's really good for, Sensei shows us bunkai that is both amazing and practical. It may not be used much in kumite, but that's because the practitioners aren't skilled enough, not because the move's no good. I am not skilled enough either, so I'm not dissing those who don't use it in kumite, but I've seen it used by experts and I'm a believer. A low block can be awesome.
In addition, the low block can be the first part of a trap-and-pull where you block a punch low, then lay your other hand over the opponent's arm (and the opponent's arm/fist is over your blocking arm) and then lock it in, and pull towards your obi. Brings the opponent down and in towards you, and you open their face like a leaky paint bucket with an elbow, or step in and take out the groin with a knee or kick, or sweep the inside, whatever you like; they belong to you now. You can't camp out on the block, it's got to be bang-bang, block, trap, pull in one fluid motion, but if you do it right, they are off-balance, leaning forward, giving you their face like 'ta-da' for you to push in their mush. And believe me, I've had my mush pushed in. No fun.
Every time I practice a basic exercise or kata that has low blocks in it and I wonder what on earth it's really good for, Sensei shows us bunkai that is both amazing and practical. It may not be used much in kumite, but that's because the practitioners aren't skilled enough, not because the move's no good. I am not skilled enough either, so I'm not dissing those who don't use it in kumite, but I've seen it used by experts and I'm a believer. A low block can be awesome.
In Isshin-Ryu, the first block in Wansu is a strike to the groin, or at least that's what we taught to think of it as.
Of course, we incorporate a lot of Goju-Ryu. This morning, we were practicing Sanchin 'Goju-Ryu' style, when we do because our founder, Tatsuo Shimabuku did it that way too, to honor his Goju-Ryu master, Chojun Miyagi. So we're not Goju-Ryu, but we give respect to Goju-Ryu in our kata.
The mere fact that many have said they don't use the downward 'block' in sparring is possibly an indication that, as seasoned says, it is in fact a strike. Applied to the arm near the elbow in buckles the knees and exposes the neck.
It is invaluable as a set up point. As seasoned says there are multiple targets but 'blocking' a kick is not one of them.
Keep in mind, just because you dont see it used in sparring, doesnt mean that its a bad technique. I primarily use it to block kicks, usually the front kick. Can it be used to block low punches? Sure, however, that would not the block of my choice. Also keep in mind, that all blocks are strikes, so if you adept in pressure point striking, that is another option. For example: Quite a while back, I attended a George Dillman seminar. He covered a number of kata applications, one of them being the downward X block. He stated that many times, people will say that the X block is a defense against a kick, however, he frowned upon that. Instead, he did a downward blocking type motion, against a wrist grab.
So, as you can see, the options are pretty wide.
Kittan Bachika
Purple Belt
First of all thank you for the responses.
Some of the posts here mentioned groin strikes and arm bars. Is the groin strike the block itself? Or is it in the preparation with one arm aimed downwards?
If it is the block, then are you using a hammer fist to strike the groin since it is a downward block goes to the side?
As for the arm-bar, is this what you all mean?
Some of the posts here mentioned groin strikes and arm bars. Is the groin strike the block itself? Or is it in the preparation with one arm aimed downwards?
If it is the block, then are you using a hammer fist to strike the groin since it is a downward block goes to the side?
As for the arm-bar, is this what you all mean?
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JWLuiza
Black Belt
Groin strike could be the low hand during the chamber or the completion of the block.
The arm bar shown is within the ballpark of how I teach it.
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In Okinawan karate, the down block (as mentioned above) is often referred to as 'gedan barai'. If you Google 'gedan barai' and 'bunkai', you can find some examples of creative applications of this basic move. Here's a good one I just found:
http://www.shotokankarate.ca/bunkai the missing link in kata.htm
This is just one example. Bunkai goes on and on; there are always more practical applications that can be dragged out of the simplest (seeming) moves.
http://www.shotokankarate.ca/bunkai the missing link in kata.htm
This is just one example. Bunkai goes on and on; there are always more practical applications that can be dragged out of the simplest (seeming) moves.
marlon
Master Black Belt
It is an effective block for anythng that you want to strike downwards and move
off to the side
including a kick. I just don't stand there after the block with my fist at knee level. There are of course many many applications I am just saying that it s an effective downward block even against a kick. If you block with both hands as you fall backwards you have an effective slap out...
off to the side
including a kick. I just don't stand there after the block with my fist at knee level. There are of course many many applications I am just saying that it s an effective downward block even against a kick. If you block with both hands as you fall backwards you have an effective slap out...
Blade96
Senior Master
So do we. We're taught also that a block is also a strike.
Danny T
Senior Master
Its primary application is its movement from whatever position the hand/arm is into the downward block position. Look to what is happening or what can be happening within that movement.
Bill, there is a good reference book I have, called Okinawan GoJu-Ryu 2, Advanced Techniques of Shorei-Kan Karate by Seikichi Toguchi. In this book it explains certain rules to follow when deciphering kata. It goes on to say that "Techniques executed while advancing imply attacking techniques, even if they appear to be blocking techniques". It gives a whole new meaning to some kata moves.
I've used that movement in sparring as well. The issue here, IMO, is one of semantics. We are calling something a "downward block" and it really is much much more then that. That should clue us in that there is something wrong with the name for the technique, not the technique itself.
Karate traditions have passed on many misconceptions and misunderstandings in regards to techniques. Looking at the history, we can start to piece together some kind of new understanding for this technique, one that encompasses what it actually is used for and one that correctly identifies this purpose.
IMO, the bottom line is that this terminology was designed to obfuscate the meaning of movements in kata. The sooner karateka stop using this terminology, the sooner they start to see the possibilities in the movement.
Karate traditions have passed on many misconceptions and misunderstandings in regards to techniques. Looking at the history, we can start to piece together some kind of new understanding for this technique, one that encompasses what it actually is used for and one that correctly identifies this purpose.
IMO, the bottom line is that this terminology was designed to obfuscate the meaning of movements in kata. The sooner karateka stop using this terminology, the sooner they start to see the possibilities in the movement.
I'm not so sure it was deliberate obfuscation so much as communication errors across languages. I'm not suggesting that there wasn't some concealment of the real uses, for a number of reasons, but I don't think we really need to point the blame at some sort of conspiracy, either. I think a lot goes back to the way that martial arts -- especially karate & judo -- got introduced to the US. Servicemen would go to Japan or Okinawa for a year or two, and have lots of time and energy to devote to learning the basics intensely. But they only learned the basics... And they didn't necessarily speak Japanese. So they're shown "move like this" against a strike, and they call that a block. In time, they'd learn that it can be much more -- but they were back in the US and didn't necessarily reach that point. Or, when they did, they kept the name "block" because they don't have a better name.
It might even go back to Funakoshi (and others) introducing karate to Japan, and developing the group instruction model rather than the very individual instruction that seems to have been the norm in Okinawa.
Maybe someone who can actually speak Japanese can give us a better/more accurate translation of the terms, like "jodan uke". I suspect that we simply have translated it as "upward block" or "rising block"... but doesn't uke really mean something more like "receiving?"
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