What is all this blocking about

[exile]

there is a lot in there that can be used as a block, or at least a re-directing parry of some sort....there is often an exaggerated reverse swing in the punch that can also be used as a deflection or parry or block, depending on how you chose to define it.

...But we definitely do have defensive techiques for intercepting an attack that is coming in before we go into berserker mode and wreck the room.

What your post made me think of, FC—especially the bolded part in this excerpt—is the role of chambering motions in TKD and other karate-based arts and how of they're misinterpreted because of the packaging involved, seen as something useless or over-stylized—when in fact, it's these moves which are the literal blocks/deflections/interceptions/parries, and the `block' movements actually correspond to strikes on weak points like the throat,, collarbone, and groin. So you see somebody swing both arms back with the hands open, and then sweep forward into a `middle knifehand block'. But this is typically code for the deflection of a hard swinging punch to the outside, with the innermost elbow following round to smash the attacker's face; the out back-swinging knife edge, after completing its pain-inflicting redirection of the punch, works in a species of hikite to trap the attackers' damaged striking arm while the defender's hips and upper body pivot round, getting in very close to the attacker's head; the trapping hand anchors the attacker's arm, whilst the `knifehand block' which concludes the techniques is blocking nothing, but is instead targetting the attacker's throat or carotid sinus. I've recently started doing triple 1" board breaks, no dividers, for the first time since I broke my hand doing that with a punch two years ago; these days I only knifehand breaks, and I know that if I can break three one-inch boards in a stack, that a really experienced fighter is going to be able to do some major damage applying that same strike to someone's exposed neck or larynx. This is as I say a standard kind of defensive attack sequence in the karate-based arts, but the important point is that all the deflection takes place in that `exaggerated reverse swing'—exactly the right phrasing—which proceeds what advertises itself as the blocking movement, but which is actually the terminating strike of the combat sequence.

Similarly, a standard bunkai for the elaborate back swing of the so-called down block is presentation of a horizontal or spearing elbow strike (in connection with the hikite of the retracting fist trapping the attacker) to the forward-moving assailant, who will slam into it and then meet the incoming `down block' motion, aka a hammer-fist strike to the head, neck or groin.

So yes, I think I can see that, like any TMA that's been around for a while, TWC combines deflecting and attacking moves, using a certain amount of concealment. Makes most excellent sense!

 

[CuongNhuka]

Well, Tibetan White Crane does not have blocks. At least not officially as such. But ya know what? After you have been working on it for a while, you begin to realize that they are also in there too. Can't exactly get by without any of them...

From my understanding, it's largely the same with Choy Li Fut. The way they "block" is by using an attack as a block. What in Cuong Nhu is called a "blocking punch", or in some systems is called a "parry". Their has already been a discussion on this topic in general self defense.
Keep in mind, if you call it a block, parry, or strike to an opponents strike (what my Sensei has called blocks many times) it is effective. The OP and the people supporting his postion would be called a 0.5 demensionalist in Cuong Nhu. Or 0.3, I don't think such a claim has been made to a Cuong Nhu sudent before. So, it could easily be a whole new demension of thought for Cuong Nhu guys. If you would like an explaination of Cuong Nhu demension theory, let me know.

 

[Steel Tiger]

This is the SOP of a `fence'-type defensive set-up. I've seen Gm. John Pelligrini and other Hapkido masters demonstrate this kind of deflection in seminars and have found in practice with seriously non-compliant partners that it's extremely effective. Very little force is needed to carry out the deflection, and it's true that what force is applied mostly comes from fairly small upper-body rotations driven from the hips. But those kinds of techs are implicit in a lot of TMA forms. Still, they have be trained hard and long to become automatic—that's going to be the case regardless of the intrinsic effectiveness of the technique, no?

So yes, I think I can see that, like any TMA that's been around for a while, TWC combines deflecting and attacking moves, using a certain amount of concealment. Makes most excellent sense!

I'm just going to stray off topical a little here, but Exile has made two points that give an understanding as to why TMA are still around and why so many people cannot understand them when viewing them from the outside.

These two points also define the nature of defences in forms. A lot of what is seen as pointless arm waving to fill gaps between techniques are actually other techniques. Attacks are so overt so it is not surprising that they have drawn the spotlight and, in the case of Karate and TKD, been misinterpreted.

 

[Kacey]

Thank you, that was a great debate, alot of views, good points, and new info. I enjoyed reading these post,

soo....... is a block an attack or an attack a block or they the same, the primary intent may be one or the other, the secoundary result is the other, it makes contact resulting in damage, it takes up space resulting in blockage of that space.

????????

Yes and no - all blocks can be used as attacks, and all attacks can be used as blocks; the names are just convenient ways to categorize techniques.

Let me try to explain what I mean here: if you attack me with, let's say, a punch to my face, and I block your punch so hard your hand goes numb or I break your arm - was that a block (because I prevented your punch from hitting me) or was it an attack (because I caused you physical pain/damage that limits your ability to continue attacking)? Likewise, you throw any hand technique, and I plant a front kick on your solar plexus, which, since my leg is longer than your arm, prevents your hand attack from hitting me - was my kick a block or an attack?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Cuong Nhu's concept of Blocking punch and the origin of what we call the forarm smash.

 

[Sukerkin]

QUOTE Exile:

"Makes most excellent sense!"

As do you, my friend :tup:.

Because yet again the Rep Gnomes say "No!", I thought I'd put my public IOU out on the table .

 

[MJS]

bla bla bla bla bla... all I hear is philisophical theory non-sense... if the style of blocking you guys are talking about it would of been in the old game of pugilism a long time ago due to it being all arms and hands... I want to see you block a crushing blow from someone who knows how to throw a good hook or cross and tell me that aint gonna cause damage to your arm if your even lucky in getting it in the path... but hold that statment... it's gonna spark someone in talking about iron training... yeah if you have all day to beat yourself with sand bags 3 times a day... those of you who are talkign about the redirection of a punch... that isnt blocking... thats a parry... blocks are what are used in systems like karate, tae kwon do, and kung fu... the whole upward downward block bs... all this theory is leading to the same place... put up or shut up... reason why eastern martial arts besides like muay thai or doing well in NHB events you can say rules all you want but you take NHB athlete and take away the rules your in for some trouble... you dont think they train in cheap shots... just like professional boxers dont train in em either huh? the argumemnts will always be the same but your arguement will always be nothing more then philisophical theory bs... just like time travel... it dont exist till it's proven... and sure hasnt been proven...

Perhaps you can share with us, your method of blocking. The posts that you've been making have been less than friendly. You come across as if you have quite a bit of experience. Now, I don't know if you're basing your opinions off of what you've seen on Youtube clips, MMA fights, or something else, but rather than base how its done off of what others do, why don't you provide us with your method. Just because you see something on Youtube or the latest UFC, doesnt mean its the best way, that its going to work for everyone or that there are not other options.


Like so many other armchair, UFC QB's, you seem to be under this misconception, that every person you may encounter on the street, is going to be a professional fighter. There are many tools for blocking, such as a parry, an actual block, which by the way, is also a strike, as well as the crazy monkey method of blocking, that I believe you mentioned in another post.

So, what exactly are you suggesting? To have someone just keep their hands up, covering their head, and taking punch after punch on their arms? Sorry, but if you're basing the effectiveness of blocks on the UFC and boxing, keep in mind that these fighters are wearing gloves.

I'm guessing that the good portion of people here, myself included, have quite a bit of training time under our belts. I'm also going out on a limb and am going to say that a good portion have most likely used their training to defend themselves. That being said, just because you dont feel its going to work, doesnt mean that it didnt already work for someone else.

Mike

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm just going to stray off topical a little here, but Exile has made two points that give an understanding as to why TMA are still around and why so many people cannot understand them when viewing them from the outside.

These two points also define the nature of defences in forms. A lot of what is seen as pointless arm waving to fill gaps between techniques are actually other techniques. Attacks are so overt so it is not surprising that they have drawn the spotlight and, in the case of Karate and TKD, been misinterpreted.

I think this is very true, and much of what is in traditional forms and kata was deliberately hidden to a certain extent. Often, the technique in the form is either vaguely suggested, or if it is quite definitely "there", it might need a little bit of tweaking before it would really work. I think perhaps this was deliberate. Anyone trying to learn the form on the sly would get something that doesn't quite work. But when the form is properly taught, along with the finer points and details including the necessary tweaks, suddenly the material becomes quite useful.

In learning a certain spear form, there is a sequence where we slam the spear downward in a horizontal position, followed by a snap forward. The obvious translation is that you are slamming down an enemy's weapon and immediately thrusting into him. But if you take the form literally, with your spear aiming directly at him, then you are probably trying to slam one skinny spear shaft directly on top of another parallel skinny spear shaft. You have a good chance of missing his spear shaft completely. But if you understand that in order for the tech to work you need to actually reposition so your spear slams down at a bit of a horizontal angle so that you have a greater chance of catching his shaft, then the tech is effective. But in the form, the tech is suggested and needs a little tweak before it becomes practical. Hidden stuff.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think this is very true, and much of what is in traditional forms and kata was deliberately hidden to a certain extent. Often, the technique in the form is either vaguely suggested, or if it is quite definitely "there", it might need a little bit of tweaking before it would really work. I think perhaps this was deliberate. Anyone trying to learn the form on the sly would get something that doesn't quite work. But when the form is properly taught, along with the finer points and details including the necessary tweaks, suddenly the material becomes quite useful.

In learning a certain spear form, there is a sequence where we slam the spear downward in a horizontal position, followed by a snap forward. The obvious translation is that you are slamming down an enemy's weapon and immediately thrusting into him. But if you take the form literally, with your spear aiming directly at him, then you are probably trying to slam one skinny spear shaft directly on top of another parallel skinny spear shaft. You have a good chance of missing his spear shaft completely. But if you understand that in order for the tech to work you need to actually reposition so your spear slams down at a bit of a horizontal angle so that you have a greater chance of catching his shaft, then the tech is effective. But in the form, the tech is suggested and needs a little tweak before it becomes practical. Hidden stuff.

The same can be said for Kenpo knife techs.:ultracool
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

The same can be said for Kenpo knife techs.:ultracool
Sean

Yes, I believe this is true in kenpo forms as well.

Ever notice that most of the techs found in the forms are the "kata version" of the tech? And often that Kata Version isn't quite as good as the real version as taught. The tech is suggested in the form, but the details are somewhat left out.

At least that's my take on it. I don't know if those who invented the kenpo forms did that deliberately.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yes, I believe this is true in kenpo forms as well.

Ever notice that most of the techs found in the forms are the "kata version" of the tech? And often that Kata Version isn't quite as good as the real version as taught. The tech is suggested in the form, but the details are somewhat left out.

At least that's my take on it. I don't know if those who invented the kenpo forms did that deliberately.

Forms can be in an entirly different context than the reality and nuance of the techs it holds. You can flow in circles or you can accent individual points of contact. When you flow there are no blocks or strikes, just good or bad motion, tight or not so tight, contoured and uncontoured, strong or weak stances, with good or bad posture. Making these forms work on the street requires individual attention to variations of attack and purposefull attention to that points where flesh meets flesh. Yes you gotta change the angle to stay neutral to any given situation and the stories that govern a technique choice are generaly not addressed in a form.
Sean

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I was just looking thru some old seminar notes and from one in paricular seminar with Kyoshi Pat Kelly. I wrote, "You must get blocking out of your mindset. All that is necessary is to move strikes past your shoulders and kicks past your hips. Anything beyond that is for manipulation."


_Don Flatt

 

[exile]

I was just looking thru some old seminar notes and from one in paricular seminar with Kyoshi Pat Kelly. I wrote, "You must get blocking out of your mindset. All that is necessary is to move strikes past your shoulders and kicks past your hips. Anything beyond that is for manipulation."


_Don Flatt

Sounds right to me, so far as deflection goes. John Pellegrini likes to say that the first rule of self-defense is, don't get hit, and a lot of the techs in, say, Combat Hapkido drills (many of which seem to look awfully similar to subcomponents of TKD hyungs) are just along the lines you quoted.

But there's another kind of `block' which is a counterattack on an assailant's attacking limb, the kind described here. For this kind of limb destruction, blocking movements correspond not to deflection moves but to a kind of terminating strike.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sounds right to me, so far as deflection goes. John Pellegrini likes to say that the first rule of self-defense is, don't get hit, and a lot of the techs in, say, Combat Hapkido drills (many of which seem to look awfully similar to subcomponents of TKD hyungs) are just along the lines you quoted.

But there's another kind of `block' which is a counterattack on an assailant's attacking limb, the kind described here. For this kind of limb destruction, blocking movements correspond not to deflection moves but to a kind of terminating strike.

That is a very nice point Exile and a good link. For myself and in IRT I do not block at all. There is of course evasion, dodging, parrying, counter striking and of course limb destruction techniques. However, like John Pellegrini I to believe what is most important is simply not to get hit.