Thrusting Salute

[punisher73]

I have a question concerning the technique "Thrusting Salute" against a right kick. I have seen a left downward block and also a version that has a right inward/downward block with the palm up WITH the left downward block.

What version do most of you practice and why the two different versions?

 

[Storm]

I have a question concerning the technique "Thrusting Salute" against a right kick. I have seen a left downward block and also a version that has a right inward/downward block with the palm up WITH the left downward block.

What version do most of you practice and why the two different versions?

Hi there

Personally I use a right inward/downward palm up with a left downward which we call a double factor block. The right is really IMO to guide the leg with the left downward as the main block.

If im teaching it to someone it depends on how they pick moves up. For children I just teach the left downward as they do not always understand the concept of double factor blocks. If it is an adult I may choose the version I use.

Why two different versions. IMO it would be when you first learn kenpo one hand mainly does the work and as you progress further you learn and understand the importance of utilizing both hands

 

[Shodan]

The way I was taught is pretty much what Storm said- the "double factor" block can also be called a double coverage block.

:asian: :karate:

 

[KenpoTex]

I was taught this tecnique with the double-factor block. However, the way I do the technique, the right hand moves the kick offline (you're stepping away anyway) and the left is actually a hammerfist to the leg. (if you're gonna touch 'em it might as well hurt :ultracool )

 

[Michael Billings]

... and rebound the left immediately into an active check at the source for the rt. arm.

-Michael

 

[rmcrobertson]

While it may be more important to step back (and off-line) from the kick, the version that primarily uses the left downward block is technically incorrect, because this adds an "and," to the process of blocking the kick, since you must change the point of origin of the left hand in order to do a block that moves down and out. By the time you get the hand around that arc, you've been kicked.

In other words, the right hand can get there way quicker, and way more effectively, than the left....a move established first, I'd say, by the old, "Intellectual departure," technique.

One minor variation for more-advanced students is this: step back with the right inward downward, and as you, "springload," out of the left forward bow, deliver a left heel palm with the right kick to the groin in advance of the right heel palm. It's also fun to practice this so that the poor dummy is not allowed to get their kicking foot back down before you hit them.

 

[MisterMike]

I think it was established by the rule that inward motion precedes outward motion. See Sword of Destruction.

 

[punisher73]

I guess it's my previous training coming out but, I can "get" the left strike to the right kick of my opponent. But, for the life of me I can't get the right strike to work for me. I feel all bound up with it. Any help with this part of it so I can understand using this tool?

 

[Kenpodoc]

I think it was established by the rule that inward motion precedes outward motion. See Sword of Destruction.

More of a guideline than a rule. You could only start with a Naked L palmdown downward block if your L hand happened to be at your R shoulder. Not inconcevable but unlikely. In Kenpo the outward downward block tends to either be a check or a hammering strike following the palm up block from point of origen.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think it was established by the rule that inward motion precedes outward motion. See Sword of Destruction.

I have not heard this rule. Can you elaborate? Are you saying that IM is stronger than outward and there for should preceed for back up? Personaly I would think that unless the hands are already positioned, iserting double factor will slow you up. I can see where double factor can be misused to allow one time to better position for the outward motion but that violates economy of motion all across the board.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

In Intellectual Departure, you'd respond to a right kick by stepping back left, and turning to your left as though you were going to run away. The left, "block,"--it's actually more like the deflection in Deflecting Hammer--gets done because as you step and turn, your right arm swings in front of you more or less naturally.

So, in Thrusting Salute, the right arm swings forward, inward and in front of you as you step back with the right foot. The only way to get the left hand there quicker is if you start with your left hand already raised--and this still raised two problems, a) that will end up being a, "force on force," block, with the arm meeting the leg at a 90 degree angle; b) if the dummy, or attacker, really enforces the kick, they are very likely to get blocked right into your left knee if you DO get the block there in time.

Common errors--which I know about because I've got chewed out for them-- are that the dummy does a sort of inward/outward crescent kick to, "help," the defender, or does a kick that is far short of the target.

Then too, if you just step back and off with your whole heart--just as you'd block or strike--you're off-line anyway.

Good questions, I thought.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I'm going to be a cynic here, for a moment. Bear with me, as I'm re-learning. 2 things:

1. The technique assumes that a person sophisticated enough to have trained in the delivery of a front kick that can be defended by a downward block, is somehow cognitively deficient...because we turn right around and throw the same front kick at him, as if, in all his kuh-roddy training, he's never trained a downward block.

2. Why is this a better option then teaching students to use a more natural defense to this attack, employing the nearest natural weapon...raise the lead leg in a leg check, jamming his kick, while attacking with a counter? (if done from a stance...if executed from a united stance, just turn and cover with a positioned check).

I'm really not saying this to be obnoxious...this is one of those questions that's been nagging the back of my mind since I was a kid, and still does.

Dave

 

[MisterMike]

More of a guideline than a rule. You could only start with a Naked L palmdown downward block if your L hand happened to be at your R shoulder. Not inconcevable but unlikely. In Kenpo the outward downward block tends to either be a check or a hammering strike following the palm up block from point of origen.

Respectfully,

Jeff

Well, ya, I look at Kenpo as containing rules and principles. Rules can be bent, broken, ignored, etc. So, a general rule is that inward motion should precede outward on the first defensive move.

My point of origin for this technique is the hands at the sides, standing naturally. The left hand must chamber to the right hip before becoming outward motion. As it is chambering, you can insert the inward block with the right hand in case your left doen't make it in time.

An example of leaving the inward motion out before the outward would be Twirling Wings. You are running a vertical outward block "motion" with no in2ward motion preceding it. But the attack type is different, the direction of attack is differetn, etc. All things to consider.

I have not heard this rule. Can you elaborate? Are you saying that IM is stronger than outward and there for should preceed for back up? Personaly I would think that unless the hands are already positioned, iserting double factor will slow you up. I can see where double factor can be misused to allow one time to better position for the outward motion but that violates economy of motion all across the board.
Sean

Not necessarily stronger, but when it can get there faster it should be inserted. In the Sword of Destruction example, if you start with your hands down, your right outward block leaves you open as it is chambering at your left hip. Some folks run it by 'lifting' the block into position and never going through the circular motion passing past the left hip. This 'lifting' technique is good for a hook punch when they are in close and you do not have time to run the outward block and the inward motion will not give you the right angle of incidence.

So the inward 'double-factor' should not slow up your technique or violate point of origin or else yes, I'd leave it out. In the other cases, like say, Shield and Mace, you see the inward parry before the vertical outward block 'motion'. Could you leave off the parry and change the footward base? Probably. But I think if it was important enough to put in Short Form 1 then there's a pretty good reason for it.

Respectfully,

 

[Kenpodoc]

Agreed.

Jeff

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, ya, I look at Kenpo as containing rules and principles. Rules can be bent, broken, ignored, etc. So, a general rule is that inward motion should precede outward on the first defensive move.

My point of origin for this technique is the hands at the sides, standing naturally. The left hand must chamber to the right hip before becoming outward motion. As it is chambering, you can insert the inward block with the right hand in case your left doen't make it in time.

An example of leaving the inward motion out before the outward would be Twirling Wings. You are running a vertical outward block "motion" with no in2ward motion preceding it. But the attack type is different, the direction of attack is differetn, etc. All things to consider.



Not necessarily stronger, but when it can get there faster it should be inserted. In the Sword of Destruction example, if you start with your hands down, your right outward block leaves you open as it is chambering at your left hip. Some folks run it by 'lifting' the block into position and never going through the circular motion passing past the left hip. This 'lifting' technique is good for a hook punch when they are in close and you do not have time to run the outward block and the inward motion will not give you the right angle of incidence.

So the inward 'double-factor' should not slow up your technique or violate point of origin or else yes, I'd leave it out. In the other cases, like say, Shield and Mace, you see the inward parry before the vertical outward block 'motion'. Could you leave off the parry and change the footward base? Probably. But I think if it was important enough to put in Short Form 1 then there's a pretty good reason for it.

Respectfully,

I see what you are saying. We don't use the hands at your side position as a starting point for our tech practice; so, the "double factor inward before outward rule" would not apply where I train.
Sean

 

[TwistofFat]

"1. The technique assumes that a person sophisticated enough to have trained in the delivery of a front kick that can be defended by a downward block, is somehow cognitively deficient...because we turn right around and throw the same front kick at him, as if, in all his kuh-roddy training, he's never trained a downward block.

2. Why is this a better option then teaching students to use a more natural defense to this attack, employing the nearest natural weapon...raise the lead leg in a leg check, jamming his kick, while attacking with a counter? (if done from a stance...if executed from a united stance, just turn and cover with a positioned check)."

Dr. Dave - I would agree that this tech. is not my favorite but I will jump in the water here since work is slow. My opinion on Thrusting Salute is to attack the uke's foundation by a) getting out the way and b) elongating uke's base (and blocking the what if punch). Uke is then spread out, off line and momentarily delayed from responding with a follow-up or defense - especially if you do not allow his kicking leg to hit the ground when you deliver your right front snaping ball kick.

Having said that - I employ the jam with the lead anytime I spar/fight. The challenge I have teaching that orange belts is two-fold. I harp on the message to get out of the line of attack and secondly, the lack of instant recognition of depth (how fast is the kick - ie can I still retreat and be effective in my targeting - beating his apex with my linear knee strike).

I like to teach TS in relation to the Orange Belt saying "In every offense there is a defense and in every defense is an offense". In Orange I like to ask the Tori to think about Uke's reaction and counters. When my martial art hodgepoge of buddies beat each other around however, you will not see anything that looks like TS.

Regards and Advocatus Diaboli - Glenn

 

[kenposikh]

I was taught with the right inside downward palm up block with the left downward block and of course all the checking as mentioned in other posts. Double Factor Blocks are very important in the system and a good idea to get used to.

I have a question concerning the technique "Thrusting Salute" against a right kick. I have seen a left downward block and also a version that has a right inward/downward block with the palm up WITH the left downward block.

What version do most of you practice and why the two different versions?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Advocatus Diaboli - Glenn

Thank you for your reply. I have provided the technique to students despite my reservations, also using it as an introduction to minor/major blocking movements in SD, evasion angles in footwork, and counters from planes tangential to the original direction of committed attack. All the while, making sure I cover leg checking in sparring that same night, presenting it to students as, "here's alternative information, so you have choice...a wider array of options from which to choose".

I will also deviate from thrusting salute to some aikijujutsu counters against a downward sword attack or overhead bat that employ the same essential footwork, but reiterate the minor/major principle with a double parry prior to the entanglement and throw...the idea to preview students to multiple applications of the same ideas. Thrusting salute is then used to explore, with slight modifications, defenses to a low line thrust, wrist grab, push, and others, to illustrate the universality of the movements and open up options aside from it being only a defense against a kick (exploring the universality of kenpo combinations, versus conditioning perception to specificity).

I deviate significantly from standard EPAK to demonstrate the minor/major; step offline then return to attacker from alternate direction (used to call it "ghost dancing" in Japanese jujutsu, b/c the attacker should have the impression they are dancing with an ungraspable ghost that disappears and reappears during the encounter); front thrusting snap kick followed by a palm heel is a good divided zone attack, and should be reachable in mind from many positions, against many attacks (general applications vs specific; also train the combo...lunging front followed by thrusting palm...like a sparring combo to deepen the performance groove). Also, just for kicks and giggles, then have them explore the implications of running the same sequence to the opposite side of the body line, applying counter-strikes to available/presenting targets (inside vs outside line; open vs closed relative positioning).

Will typically end the session with explorations to judo throws or take-downs optimally available from the ending positions of the techniques, followed by choke or control holds, or finishing blows. Want the students eye to be trained to be opportunistic about presenting targets, and to have the flexibility in combat vocab to make adaptations on the fly to stuff that happens in the chaos of fighting...things rarely go as planned, making the flexibility to adapt paramount for successful defense.

Sure I'll get fried for daring to break the sanctity of classical kenpo (?), but there you have it.

Regards,

Dave

 

[parkerkarate]

The right inward-downward palm up is a cover block for the left downward block.

 

[Brother John]

I have a question concerning the technique "Thrusting Salute" against a right kick. I have seen a left downward block and also a version that has a right inward/downward block with the palm up WITH the left downward block.

What version do most of you practice and why the two different versions?

That's not a different version, maybe an advanced execution: It's just double factoring. (Look that term up, you'll see)

Your Brother
John