The "perfect" art....

[CNida]

I am looking for some suggestions and recommendations for the perfect art.

When I say perfect, I of course mean something that is perfect FOR ME. Obviously there is no truly perfect art. And when I say for me, I mean something that fits well to my lifestyle and my profession in private security/law enforcement.

I have been considering Kenpo for some time. I just don't think Kenpo is what I am looking for, for reasons I don't want to elaborate on because I am not sure how to without sounding disrespectful, nor do I want to sound completely ignorant as I have never practiced the art.

What would be ideal for me? An art that benefits from a flexible and physically fit practitioner, but doesn't rely on it. Something that can be used to safely handle aggressors while minimizing harm done to them while defending myself at the same time, but also something that can be overtly rough if necessary.

To that extent I considered Judo, but I would like something that has some degree of focus on strikes as well. I like Judo for its throws and it's ground capability which I think is something that is good to know just in case the fight goes that way. Yes, I know, I could easily sign on with a boxing gym as well but I wonder if there isn't a more practical option as well.

I am wondering if there is a traditional art out there that has these things. Penny for your thoughts?


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[DennisBreene]

Consider looking in the realm of Aikido, jiu jitsu, Modern Arnis and hapkido. This is a short list and I'm sure more educated Practioners can expand on this but it appears you are looking for something that blends offense, defense, control and scalability of response.

 

[K-man]

Dennis has a good point with his selection but to become proficient at Aikido takes many years of dedicated training. In my case with an extensive MA background, it took about 5 or 6 years before I reached the stage where it becomes second nature. But it certainly has the attributes that you have listed.

But the style I would certainly consider if available is Systema. It relies on natural instincts, it teaches heavy strikes if required, all with the same body movement for different ranges, it teaches how to move comfortably on the ground, flexibility is a great asset, the legs are used for offence and defence, it trains multiple attacker scenario and is totally reality based. But the part of the training that fits best with the minimising harm scenario is the training, again with multiple attackers, to relax and move to escape from people trying to restrain you without actually hitting them.

Apart from all that it is an interesting art in that, like Aikido, it teaches total body relaxation.
:asian:

 

[CNida]

I would love to learn systema. If I am not mistaken, doesn't it originate from Russia, like Sambo? Are there any similarities?


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[Kframe]

The perfect art is the one you like and will stick with. It took me over 2 years in the stereo typical mma training before I realized I didn't find as much enjoyment in it. Don't get me wrong I like the kickboxing and boxing but there was no depth. We were never shown new things. In fact my biggest gripe was defenses. We only were taught the basic boxing covers and evasions. We were never taught the exquisite parries that boxing has. I had to self learn them from videos.

There is no one perfect art that covers all ranges or situations. To have that its up to you to seek out the training to fill in the gaps you perceive you need filled.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It doesn't matter what style that you train, the best training order is to learn how to:

1. use a technique (for example a toe push kick to the chest).
2. enhance it (how to make your kick fast and strong).
3. counter it (arm block, leg block, move back, ...).
4. counter the counters (use your kick to set up your punch).
5. ...

After you have developed one technique, you start to develop your next technique. After you have all the tools that you need in your toolbox, you then start your "combo" development (such as a groin kick followed by a face punch).

 

[K-man]

I would love to learn systema. If I am not mistaken, doesn't it originate from Russia, like Sambo? Are there any similarities?

Apparently they developed pretty much in parallel. Both are thought to have started from the traditional fist fighting that the men indulged in every time the had a get together. That was based on dancing, hence the loose limbs. How much Mikhail Ryabko took from Sambo, who knows? But they are both recent (relatively) forms of MA.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

I would recommend Brazilian Jiujitsu personally. If your goal is to dispatch an opponent in a humane and civilized way, Bjj is one of the best ways to learn to do exactly that. Putting someone to sleep via a choke, or locking someone in place until they say "uncle" or the cops come is far more gentle and civilized than ripping out a throat, or bashing someone's nose in with your head. Bjj will also get you in shape, since rolling is a very intense workout. There's not a lot of fatties doing Bjj.

Most Bjj schools will teach you striking and takedowns as well, but nothing beats a good ground game, since that will allow you to fully neutralize an opponent stronger than yourself. Keep in mind that many martial arts these days actively try to find ways to counter a good ground specialist.

There's a good reason for that. Might as well learn from the source.

 

[CNida]

It's not so much a preference for treating assailants humanely, but I work as a security officer at a local hospital. I am 6'3", 250 lbs., and lack the means to effectively handle some situations without causing unintentional harm. Namely when I have to deal with an intensely aggravated psychiatric patient. You might be able to match strength for strength with a person like that. I am somewhat knowledgeable of Brazilian jiujitsu but it would be somewhat unethical to place a person like that in a choke hold.

I just meant that I would like the art to be something that can be used to lethal and nonlethal effect equally well.... The ability to physically mitigate a threat offered by an enraged schizophrenic without causing any real harm to them, but an art that can be used to break bones if need be. Systema is starting to look more and more like what I am looking for.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[Xue Sheng]

Shuaijiao

Taijiquan

Baguazhang

 

[Hanzou]

It's not so much a preference for treating assailants humanely, but I work as a security officer at a local hospital. I am 6'3", 250 lbs., and lack the means to effectively handle some situations without causing unintentional harm. Namely when I have to deal with an intensely aggravated psychiatric patient. You might be able to match strength for strength with a person like that. I am somewhat knowledgeable of Brazilian jiujitsu but it would be somewhat unethical to place a person like that in a choke hold.

I just meant that I would like the art to be something that can be used to lethal and nonlethal effect equally well.... The ability to physically mitigate a threat offered by an enraged schizophrenic without causing any real harm to them, but an art that can be used to break bones if need be. Systema is starting to look more and more like what I am looking for.

Kind of interesting that they would frown on putting someone in a sleeper hold, but be okay with you snapping someone's limbs. Sounds like an interesting place to work.

Anyway, sounds like you're leaning towards Systema. Good luck, and I hope you enjoy it. :asian:

 

[CNida]

They frown on putting a PATIENT in a choke hold because a lot of the nurses here don't understand that a sleeper hold is relatively harmless, and aside from that, the patient is here to get treated for a medical or psychiatric issue. And yes, while I understand that choking them out would not hurt them as much as a takedown might, THEY dont share that sentiment.

And as far as breaking bones, I meant that in a purely street/self defense angle, not in the hospital environment where I might be dealing with a patient who is someone's loved one. If my life is on the line, I don't care one way or another.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[K-man]

Interesting that if security guards use a sleeper hold now they can be charged with attempted murder.

There is a similar provision in Western Australia (both as to objectivity and extension to agents) under the Criminal Code Act 1913 (WA). Section 254 of this Act allows an occupant some latitude in determining what amounts to ‘reasonable’ force:
254 (1) ...
(2) It is lawful for a person (‘the occupant&#8217 who is in peaceable possession of any place, or who is entitled to the control or management of any place, to use such force as is reasonably necessary
(a) to prevent a person from wrongfully entering the place;
(b) to remove a person who wrongfully remains on or in the place; or
(c) to remove a person behaving in a disorderly manner on or in the place;
provided that the force used is not intended, and is not such as is likely, to cause death or grievous bodily harm to the person.
(3) The authorisation conferred by subsection (2), as limited by the proviso to that subsection, extends to a person acting by the occupant’s authority except that if that person’s duties as an employee consist of or include any of the matters referred to in subsection (2) (a), (b) or (c) that person is not authorised to use force that is intended, or is likely, to cause bodily harm. [emphasis added]
http://www.alta.edu.au/resources/PDFs/2010/2010_jalta_sarre.pdf

And it would seem that there is similar restriction in the US.

There are common misconceptions that bouncers have authority to pick someone up and physically remove them from the premises for violating a club rule. Some believe that bouncers can use pressure points, pain compliance holds, joint-manipulation, full-nelsons, chokeholds, wrist locks, and arm-bars to manhandle their patrons. This is generally not true.

Simply stated bouncers cannot legally use force against a patron being escorted out unless they are taking someone into custody for a crime or in self-defense. When force is used it must be reasonable depending on the circumstances. Ordinarily, that means no tackling, no punching, no kicking, no choking, no head butts, no piling on top, no hog-ties, and no pain compliance holds unless necessary for self-defense.
http://www.crimedoctor.com/nightclub_security_3.htm

Not sure how BJJ fits in there at all.

(Haven't we been down this "BJJ is best" track before?)

 

[ballen0351]

As a police officer its against my departments general orders to use sleep, or choke holds.

 

[ballen0351]

If your looking for something you can use at work I'd suggest 1st read your use of force policy and see if anything is specifically banned from use like choke holds or arm bars or strikes to the face or whatever else . Then use that info to make an educated choice and go from there. It's also hard to give suggestions if we don't know where you live or what's available. If I suggested oh art xyz is great try it but art xyz is only taught 500 miles away it does you no good.

 

[CNida]

Thats also another issue I am dealing with unfortunately. I am next to 100 percent certain that there are no Systema schools around here. Or instructors even.

And as a side note, yes, as a security guard, I have no authority whatsoever. No more than anyone else. This is a unique challenge in that I am still expected to act as an enforcer even that I can't forcefully extract someone from the premises. Sometimes it's all about being a good bluffer.

It's a travesty but alas.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[ballen0351]

Might be easier to give us an idea of what's around you and then we can give you our penny

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

First off the best thing would be to find an instructor of a system that you would enjoy training in. That would be the most important thing. You could check out everything in your local area, visit a class or train in one and see if you find a system that you would like to learn.

On a short list I would give you might be:

Filipino Martial Arts ie. Arnis, Kali, Eskrima

Budo Taijutsu

Bando

Silat

Krav Maga

of course I am also partial to Brazilian Jiujitsu as well! For what you need that might be the ideal system. (ie. you need restraint and control techniques)

If you were in Las Vegas or the middle of Michigan I would say stop by and check out what we do in IRT.

Xue gave some excellent Chinese martial systems for you to look at as well.

 

[Hanzou]

Interesting that if security guards use a sleeper hold now they can be charged with attempted murder.

And it would seem that there is similar restriction in the US.
Not sure how BJJ fits in there at all.

(Haven't we been down this "BJJ is best" track before?)

Bjj can fit in there easily since it teaches a variety of holds that can be applied in a variety of positions. I mean, if you're holding someone in place while sitting on top of them and smacking their hands away, I doubt you're going to get into too much trouble.

Anyway, no one is saying that Bjj is the best, however it would be silly not to acknowledge that Bjj has certain advantages over some other arts mentioned here. Mainly that it tends to be easier to find a legit Bjj school than most other styles, Bjj schools can be a bit easier to find than a Systema, Krav Maga, BBT, or exotic Kung Fu school, and there's the competitive aspect that is available if you wish to go beyond merely the self-defense aspect.

 

[Mon Mon]

CNida There are a number of things you should consider. For work it has already been said know your use of force policy. I myself work as a Corrections officer and am very familiar with the use of force policy in the Department of Corrections. What i can tell you i have learned. Is that any line of work where you wear a badge is more about knowing how to talk and treat people than it is about putting your hands on people. I would look into Verbal Judo its a great way to learn how to talk to others and deescalate a potentially tense situation.

I would recomend that if something happens at work and you can escape and call for backup first. If you can't you need to keep moving and keep your hands up. If you are on the street and get attacked its best to try to escape if possible. Generally speaking though if you pay attention to your surroundings and relax you can avoid most situations.

There are a number of arts that could meet your needs BJJ/MMA is a good one in that it offers some relatively quick skill sets that one could learn to develop and could teach you how to take a hit which by the way will happen in a fight you need to know your gonna get hit and how to take it. But there are many good arts out there find something you enjoy and study it. Have an open mind and know every art has something to teach you if you look at it from an open mind.

What city do you live in any way?