The Need to Be Recognized as Superior

[KPM]

Chinese martial arts have always been based upon a "family system." If you were in an MMA gym that attitude would be very acceptable. But in CMA circles, people acknowledge their elders, regardless of skill. This is considered good manners and proper etiquette. Seniority often had as much to do about promoting and representing the system as it did about whether or not you could "knock someone's teeth out." Do you think Cus D'Amato could knock Mike Tyson's teeth out? I doubt it! Yet Tyson respected him for what he could teach.

But it seems you actually know very little about this kind of respect.

 

[LFJ]

But it seems you actually know very little about this kind of respect.

I know about it, just don't respect it, because it often leads to lousy trainers being put on a pedestal for nothing more than name and position in a family. Fact is most TCMA "masters" in China can't fight at all.

Not every trainer is of the caliber of Cus D'Amato and he never made anyone kowtow to him. Anyone calling another man his disciple has delusions of grandeur.

 

[anerlich]

I will serve them tea when they serve me my @$$.

I don't really like tea anyway.

 

[KPM]

I know about it, just don't respect it, because it often leads to lousy trainers being put on a pedestal for nothing more than name and position in a family. Fact is most TCMA "masters" in China can't fight at all.

Not every trainer is of the caliber of Cus D'Amato and he never made anyone kowtow to him. Anyone calling another man his disciple has delusions of grandeur.

So WSLVT lineage doesn't teach Mo Duk? That's a shame.

 

[LFJ]

So WSLVT lineage doesn't teach Mo Duk? That's a shame.

It doesn't teach to respect BS for BS' sake, if that's what you mean.

It's not a religion otherwise either.

 

[KPM]

It doesn't teach to respect BS for BS' sake, if that's what you mean.

It's not a religion otherwise either.

Again, you obviously don't truly understand what Mo Duk means.

 

[LFJ]

Again, you obviously don't truly understand what Mo Duk means.

Nor do I care. I don't need to get my "morality" from a silly martial art culture.

 

[wtxs]

Who did you vote for?

Now you are trolling. I would have to say no matter who/whom we voted for, you would likely say we had made the wrong choice ... lets get back on the OP subject.

 

[Steve]

Now you are trolling. I would have to say no matter who/whom we voted for, you would likely say we had made the wrong choice ... lets get back on the OP subject.

It's whom. And really, it should read, "... for whom we voted."

 

[KPM]

Nor do I care. I don't need to get my "morality" from a silly martial art culture.

That explains a lot!

 

[wtxs]

It's whom. And really, it should read, "... for whom we voted."

Forgive the grammar, just responding to Guy's "who". I did include the "whom" since you don't just select/elect only a new president ... are we good?

 

[geezer]

I know about it, just don't respect it, because it often leads to lousy trainers being put on a pedestal ...Anyone calling another man his disciple has delusions of grandeur.

Whoa... you mean Philip Bayer never became a disciple of WSL, ...or WSL of YM?

....Personally I find there can be a balance of tradition and pragmatism. Treat your teachers with due respect, no more no less. Ant if they don't merit your respect for whatever reason, find a new teacher.


BTW did you literally knock that guys teeth out, and did he deserve it? ...No gumshields aka mouthguards in that school, I'm guessing?

 

[geezer]

Now you are trolling. I would have to say no matter who/whom we voted for, you would likely say we had made the wrong choice ... lets get back on the OP subject.

Actually, I think Guy was making a joke. He does have that kind of a sense of humor. We Yanks can be a bit literal sometimes.

 

[Vajramusti]

Chinese martial arts have always been based upon a "family system." If you were in an MMA gym that attitude would be very acceptable. But in CMA circles, people acknowledge their elders, regardless of skill. This is considered good manners and proper etiquette. Seniority often had as much to do about promoting and representing the system as it did about whether or not you could "knock someone's teeth out." Do you think Cus D'Amato could knock Mike Tyson's teeth out? I doubt it! Yet Tyson respected him for what he could teach.

But it seems you actually know very little about this kind of respect.

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The important thing on a good DISCUSSION list is civility even in the midst of differences of opinions and perspectives.

 

[Steve]

Forgive the grammar, just responding to Guy's "who". I did include the "whom" since you don't just select/elect only a new president ... are we good?

I was just trying to be a smart *** to lighten things up. People don't talk that way, and I wouldn't expect you to write with perfect grammar. It's all good.

 

[Juany118]

Nor do I care. I don't need to get my "morality" from a silly martial art culture.

Well I think we can all understand why you would take this stance but the way you dismiss it borders on bigotry because what you are talking about isn't a "martial arts culture" thing. The idea of respecting your elders in Martial Arts is simply an extension of filial piety which permeates both Confucian thought Chinese Culture overall.

 

[LFJ]

Well I think we can all understand why you would take this stance but the way you dismiss it borders on bigotry because what you are talking about isn't a "martial arts culture" thing. The idea of respecting your elders in Martial Arts is simply an extension of filial piety which permeates both Confucian thought Chinese Culture overall.

So, I'm a borderline bigot because I don't practice or respect your religion?

I'm not at all intolerant of people who hold beliefs that I find silly. Kowtow to your heart's content.

But respecting someone merely because of name or position is not a moral obligation or even morally virtuous. It's simply not a moral issue.

So, don't try to suggest to me that I somehow lack morality if I don't kowtow to people I don't think worthy of it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, I'm a borderline bigot because I don't practice or respect your religion?

I'm not at all intolerant of people who hold beliefs that I find silly. Kowtow to your heart's content.

But respecting someone merely because of name or position is not a moral obligation or even morally virtuous. It's simply not a moral issue.

So, don't try to suggest to me that I somehow lack morality if I don't kowtow to people I don't think worthy of it.

It's not about morality - it's about etiquette. That's a cultural quirk, and most Eastern-based martial arts carry parts of that culture. When we step into a group, it's generally accepted that we take on their etiquette, as well.

 

[LFJ]

It's not about morality - it's about etiquette. That's a cultural quirk, and most Eastern-based martial arts carry parts of that culture. When we step into a group, it's generally accepted that we take on their etiquette, as well.

The Chinese term is martial "morality", and obviously requiring kowtowing to someone based on authority and treating this as a moral obligation for practitioners of a martial art is entering the realm of religion. This is far beyond simply defining ethical use of martial skill.

I shall not be accused of lacking morals or being a borderline bigot if I choose not to partake or accept these religious beliefs.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The Chinese term is martial "morality", and obviously requiring kowtowing to someone based on authority and treating this as a moral obligation for practitioners of a martial art is entering the realm of religion. This is far beyond simply defining ethical use of martial skill.

I shall not be accused of lacking morals or being a borderline bigot if I choose not to partake or accept these religious beliefs.

I'm not discussing the semantics of the term used - which gets us into the realm of translation inaccuracy. I'm talking about the actual issue - it's simply a matter of etiquette, not morals. Perhaps in Chinese culture, those two are intertwined. Within the larger MA community, they generally are not. I know plenty of people with poor morals and great adherence to etiquette, so I prefer not to confuse the two.