The Need to Be Recognized as Superior

Buka

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I think other aspects of "clothing" should be taken into consideration. One aspect is heavy winter clothing, which a decent part of the USA wears regularly for months at a time. I'm not talking about using that clothing against the wearer, I'm talking about how it changes the way you move when wearing it. You don't run the same, punch the same, kick the same or even grapple the same. Nothing you can't adjust to, but doing so in an hour of need might not be the best way to go. If you wear something, you should know how it affects your movement.

As for defense - I won't wear a necktie, unless it's a clip on. And most of my life I've lived in hooded sweatshirts (I'm always cold) but take the string out of the hood. Maybe it's over thinking the whole thing, but I go to the school of Stymie.

 

guy b

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I'm not sure why I'm even jumping in here, but the loss of consciousness is due to the carotid being pinched, and stopping or at least diminishing the blood flow to the brain

Thanks for your, uh...help?

Block it off for too long, and there most definitely is permanent damage.

Yes if you keep on strangling people indefinitely then they can die. It happens.
 

Juany118

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@paitingman I am not saying I agree with the jurisdictions that may consider a choke hold lethal force, only that they do exist and in self defense one must consider the legal issues in your jurisdiction.
 

Juany118

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I'm not sure why I'm even jumping in here, but the loss of consciousness is due to the carotid being pinched, and stopping or at least diminishing the blood flow to the brain. Block it off for too long, and there most definitely is permanent damage.

What you describe, at least in my training, is a carotid restraint which is why I mentioned it earlier in a comparison with choke hold/strangulation. A chokehold/strangulation is just that, a compromising of the air way. Right now the former is still not considered lethal force however there is movement (due to the Gray incident on Staten island) to have all such controls considered lethal force.
 

Juany118

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I mostly agree, with the exception that, any strangulation involving the carotid artery runs the risk of carotid sinus reflex, which will result in death if one doesn't know how to reopen the carotid. I agree that strangulation involving the airway is potentially more dangerous. Another factor is with cutting off the blood supply to the brain the recipient is likely unaware anything is happening until too late. Airway chokes are immediately noticed and generally cause the recipient to spaz out because they can't breathe, plus there is greater risk to compromising the integrity of the airway.
This was essentially what I was getting at, the last part especially. There really isn't any "gentle" way to do that.
 

paitingman

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@paitingman I am not saying I agree with the jurisdictions that may consider a choke hold lethal force, only that they do exist and in self defense one must consider the legal issues in your jurisdiction.

I was mostly disagreeing with your explanation of how chokes work. With many techniques black outs typically occur in under 10 seconds due to lack of oxygen DUE TO LACK OF BLOODFLOW. Typically the AIRways play little to no part in it.

You seem to be talking about some sort of actual asphyxiation which I agree is very dangerous/questionable.


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Juany118

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I was mostly disagreeing with your explanation of how chokes work. With many techniques black outs typically occur in under 10 seconds due to lack of oxygen DUE TO LACK OF BLOODFLOW. Typically the AIRways play little to no part in it.

You seem to be talking about some sort of actual asphyxiation which I agree is very dangerous/questionable.


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As I said elsewhere my training draws a line between a choke/strangulation and a carotid restraint so I think part of the issue is semantics causing confusion.

That's not really my point however. If I was to arrest you in PA for doing either it would be Felony Aggravated Assault, vs Simple assault that you get with other locks and/or strikes. Depending on the degree of injury the strangulation can be charged as attempted murder which is why I tend to put it up there as lethal force. That is why I recommend EXTREME caution when using any hold that interferes with oxygen getting to the brain. If you can't articulate that it was objectively reasonable you can have a serious legal headache.

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anerlich

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Wing Chun guys pontificating on chokes and strangulation. And giving legal advice about them. SMH.

A guy spat on former multiple Australian BJJ Champion and UFC fighter Anthony Perosh at a club or somewhere once, way before his MMA career. Anthony double-legged the guy, took him down and put his then 103Kg vertically into a kneeride on the side of the guy's head. He then asked the guy to "APOLOGIZE!" Funnily enough the guy became very apologetic. Fight over. No one injured.
 
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Steve

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Knee on face is a very painful place to be. I was introduced to that as a white belt by a brown belt who happened to have been a USA alternate Olympic power lifter nicknamed "Crusher."
 

Gerry Seymour

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I think other aspects of "clothing" should be taken into consideration. One aspect is heavy winter clothing, which a decent part of the USA wears regularly for months at a time. I'm not talking about using that clothing against the wearer, I'm talking about how it changes the way you move when wearing it. You don't run the same, punch the same, kick the same or even grapple the same. Nothing you can't adjust to, but doing so in an hour of need might not be the best way to go. If you wear something, you should know how it affects your movement.

As for defense - I won't wear a necktie, unless it's a clip on. And most of my life I've lived in hooded sweatshirts (I'm always cold) but take the string out of the hood. Maybe it's over thinking the whole thing, but I go to the school of Stymie.

I agree about training at least a bit in different clothing. It doesn't matter if you normally train in a dogi, a pair of compression shorts, or sweats; you should still train from time to time in something else. For me, I actually decided long ago that I'm okay with a real neck tie. It's a risk, for sure, so I try to train with one on from time to time so I can build in the reactions to protect myself around that risk.

I think it's about time for a "street clothes" class. Need to send my students to the thrift shops to find appropriate clothes.
 

Gerry Seymour

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What you describe, at least in my training, is a carotid restraint which is why I mentioned it earlier in a comparison with choke hold/strangulation. A chokehold/strangulation is just that, a compromising of the air way. Right now the former is still not considered lethal force however there is movement (due to the Gray incident on Staten island) to have all such controls considered lethal force.
I think most folks refer to "blood chokes" and "breath/air chokes" or something similar. I'm not sure if those are scientifically or legally accurate terms, but I hear them a lot.
 

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Wing Chun guys pontificating on chokes and strangulation. And giving legal advice about them. SMH.

A guy spat on former multiple Australian BJJ Champion and UFC fighter Anthony Perosh at a club or somewhere once, way before his MMA career. Anthony double-legged the guy, took him down and put his then 103Kg vertically into a kneeride on the side of the guy's head. He then asked the guy to "APOLOGIZE!" Funnily enough the guy became very apologetic. Fight over. No one injured.
The guy giving the legal points isn't giving them as a "Wing Chun guy", but as a police officer. What art he studies (or if he studies one at all) is irrelevant to that information.
 
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guy b

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The guy giving the legal points isn't giving them as a "Wing Chun guy", but as a police officer. What art he studies (or if he studies one at all) is irrelevant to that information.

He doesn't know the difference between choking and strangulation, despite it being pointed out several times in black and white on this thread. I think, in light of this, that the info provided is just a bit on the weak side? He also seems to lack any ability to revise his opinions when presented with new information. It all boils down to what google is telling him, yet again, and an unshakeable conviction that he is right, despite demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge.

I know this is an unpopular thing to say, but I would really hate to meet a person with such an inflexible mindset, such massive ego, and such apparent willingness to disregard truth in his job as an LEO. It would be terrifying.

And the police have a great record of applying choke holds to resisting suspects, don't they? Real experts, unlike those stupid BJJ guys.
 

guy b

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The guy giving the legal points isn't giving them as a "Wing Chun guy", but as a police officer. What art he studies (or if he studies one at all) is irrelevant to that information

Also you need to stop being so scrupulously impartial. When one side of an argument is barking mad it just drags you over in that direction.
 

Juany118

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Wing Chun guys pontificating on chokes and strangulation. And giving legal advice about them. SMH.

A guy spat on former multiple Australian BJJ Champion and UFC fighter Anthony Perosh at a club or somewhere once, way before his MMA career. Anthony double-legged the guy, took him down and put his then 103Kg vertically into a kneeride on the side of the guy's head. He then asked the guy to "APOLOGIZE!" Funnily enough the guy became very apologetic. Fight over. No one injured.

Well I am a LEO so in terms of my Country and State I think I can give advice on what might get you locked up and why... Just saying.

As for the chokes. Well I have been trained in them specifically for that job. I think that may be the difference when it comes to the terminology because choke, strangulation are words I would put in a Criminal Complaint for say a domestic violence incident when I see the bruises from fingers around the victims neck. However "carotid restraint" certainly sounds better if you are filling out a use of force memo or testifying in court, vs "blood choke" don't ya think? ;)

Edit: the reason choke and strangulation can be used in a criminal case interchangeably is because the law focuses more on the "target area" and the fact that regardless of whether you compromise the airway itself or the blood flow to the brain directly, the end effect is the same, you are robbing the brain or oxygen which can cause injury and/or death.
 
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Juany118

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I think most folks refer to "blood chokes" and "breath/air chokes" or something similar. I'm not sure if those are scientifically or legally accurate terms, but I hear them a lot.

Yeah, I finally figured that out, the word choke by itself just means strangulation when I see it. Just about every piece of Appealate case law on "choke holds" refers to the later because unless you are very well trained chances are, against a resisting subject, at best you will end up applying pressure to both the carotid and the airway.

Because of all those cases, and especially because of the Garner case, the terms (and techniques to execute) carotid restraint or sometimes called lateral vascular neck restraint are preferred so there is absolutely NO confusion as to what should be done if you go there.

Thing is a great many Agencies, because in reality even carotid restraints can go sideways, have just said blanket "No" or "only if Lethal Force is Justified" because they are inherently more dangerous. As an example I once performed a standing arm bar that brought a suspect down BUT dislocated the shoulder and tore soft tissue in the wrist of a resisting subject. Some would say that went sideways. Imagine a "choke" of any sort going sideways in a similar manner when it comes to tissue damage.
 

Juany118

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He doesn't know the difference between choking and strangulation,

Actually you don't realize that the terms in a BJJ school are not the ones used in a Criminal Case or the power words have to the uninitiated. As an example NY State actually has a law specifically to address Choking/Strangulation called Criminal obstruction of breathing or blood circulation

How do they define choking?

applying pressure on the throat or neck of a person, or blocking the nose or mouth, with intent to impede the normal breathing or circulation of blood.

So it doesn't gosh darn matter what you are trying to impede under the law there. You could say "I wasn't trying to strangle them I was just trying to apply a blood choke" and you still violated this particular statute. Ultimately this is my point, know your laws before you act.

Due to these statutes, and the perception that 99% of the population has over the word "choke", in my line of work we have particular terms for what WE do and if you do not have the training you don't do certain things period. This is why I clarified time and again that when I say "choke" I will be referring specifically to strangulation and that a carotid obstruction is a carotid restraint.

But getting back to the law... The NY statute is a perfect example as to why I say be cautious. Unless you can objectively articulate why you did it simply applying pressure with NO effect is a Misdemeanor.

A person is guilty of criminal obstruction of breathing or blood
circulation when, with intent to impede the normal breathing or
circulation of the blood of another person, he or she:
a. applies pressure on the throat or neck of such person; or
b. blocks the nose or mouth of such person.


If it does have even a minor effect....

A person is guilty of strangulation in the second degree when he or
she commits the crime of criminal obstruction of breathing or blood
circulation, as defined in section 121.11 of this article, and thereby
causes stupor, loss of consciousness for ANY period of time
, or any
other physical injury or impairment.

this is a Felony punishable to up to 7 years in Prison. Also note they use the term strangulation to describe what you claim is NOT strangulation. Under this particular law choking and strangulation are synonyms.

I get it you like "choke holds" my point is if you don't know the laws where you are, even if you apply it perfectly, you can be screwed. Some courts may see it as similar to shooting someone over a fist fight. If you don't apply it perfectly, or the target "zigs" when you thought they were going to "zag" then you will likely be screwed regardless.

Edit: sadly most Martial Arts schools, even those that say they teach self defense, don't have any instruction on how what you are learning can be impacted by law if put into real practice.
 
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Juany118

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Found it kinda funny, and on point, that I just received an email regarding a law that will be effective in 2 weeks.

禮 2718. Strangulation.

(a) Offense defined.--A person commits the offense of strangulation if the person knowingly or intentionally impedes the breathing or circulation of the blood of another person by:

(1) applying pressure to the throat or neck; or

(2) blocking the nose and mouth of the person.
 

Buka

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"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

The phrase from Romeo and Juliet is usually used today to emphasize that the name of something does not affect what it really is. It's just terminology.

I've been involved with various police departments in multiple states, both on local and Federal levels. Some call an RNC a "carotid restraint", a "lateral neck restraint" " a lateral vascular neck restraint" a "vascular neck restraint" a "cardiovascular restraint" and on and on depending what jurisdiction you're in, and more importantly, who (and when) wrote up the guide lines concerning the laws of said jurisdiction. I say "when" because police work is always changing. Twenty years ago slapping on that choke (and you guys know damn well what I'm talking about when I say "choke") could get you fired. That, too, has changed in a lot of places.

Today, you'll find in some departments this terminology - " it impacts only the circulatory system while at the same time leaving the airway unobstructed and protected during the confrontation."

And this - neck brace principle" which helps prevent injury to the persons neck by limiting any lateral movement usually associated with high levels of resistance.

And this, on the subject of the offender losing consciousness - it is a by-product of an offender's high level of resistance, not the intended objective of the officer applying the technique. Officers are taught post-application procedure and protocol for the well-being of the offender.

And as strange as this might sound, (my opinion here) one of the reasons the choke is slowly making it's way back into law enforcement isn't because it's awesome (which it is) but it's because the American public is becoming used to seeing it, becoming familiar with it, from watching the UFC and other MMA events on television. They realize nobody's getting killed from it.

Another interesting thing about terminology I found a few years ago while working in a Physical Therapy unit was this -


The Sleeper Stretch. I thought that was just too cool for school, because as a kid, we only knew a choke as a "sleeper hold".
 
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