The Need to Be Recognized as Superior

[Juany118]

Guy when I was a kid ages ago, we used to go to wrestling practice wearing gym shorts, T-shirts and tennis shoes. Soon I got knee pads and wrestling shoes (special order back then), but we still wore shorts and T-shirts except for matches. And living in Arizona, that's pretty close to what most people wear, casually at least, day to day.

I'm not sure where this idea that you can only wrestle naked comes from. Maybe they wrestle differently where you live?

I think we somehow got out signals crossed. He thinks I am saying you need to wrestle naked when I am just saying for grappling to be street effective you need to take into account the often more fragile nature of street clothes vs judogi and the like.

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[guy b]

The problem is that training exclusively with overbuilt martial arts uniforms like judogi doesnt prepare you for the different things that can happen with typical street clothes, such as literally ripping the shirt off a fully resisting subject.

Not true at all. Judo and BJJ gis are strong in order that they can be used repeatedly without breaking, not so that the practitioner becomes reliant upon the strength of them. A person in a t-shirt and shorts still presents multiple handles that can be used against them, as well as having a handy garotte around their neck (much more effective for choking than a thick inflexible gi). In fact ripping weak clothing and bunching it is in some ways better than a purpose made gi in that it is painful and restricts movement much more effectively. Weak clothes can be ripped intentionally and used to rag someone around while restricting arm movement and ability to respond.

The other great thing about training in clothing is that methods which don't use the clothing (wrestling takedowns and controls, various submissions), need to be made to work with the clothing on, which is much more difficult. In this way applying them while not wearing bulky clothing becomes much easier.

A third way in which clothing helps is that it encourages a different way of using the body, encourages better hips, more use of legs, less likely to be square and double weighted. Wrestlers in gis are in many ways very easy to throw in a gi because they generally lack the hips and leg usage. Interestingly wrestlers with this usually come from countries like Georgia, Khazakstan and other ex soviet republics, where they have jacket wrestling folk styles.

Lastly training in a jacket produces an understanding of grips, grip fighting and grip breaking that is impossible to get in any other way. With this knowledge it is remarkably easy to stall, frustrate and beat larger, stronger, more athletic and more skilled no-gi wrestlers. Hard to understand why someone wouldn't want to learn to use this knowledge offensively, to understand how to break and overcome cloth gripping defence (which people do naturally when in a defensive grappling situation), and to understand how to use grips to frustrate and win against better opposition defensively?

To sum up, training in the gi is essential as it provides several benefits not available without gi. Most serious grapplers train both gi and no gi, which is the most sensible and comprehensive approach, gaining the benefits of the gi and maintaining familiarity with no gi.

 

[guy b]

Guy when I was a kid ages ago, we used to go to wrestling practice wearing gym shorts, T-shirts and tennis shoes. Soon I got knee pads and wrestling shoes (special order back then), but we still wore shorts and T-shirts except for matches. And living in Arizona, that's pretty close to what most people wear, casually at least, day to day.

I'm not sure where this idea that you can only wrestle naked comes from. Maybe they wrestle differently where you live?

Wrestling doesn't utilise cloth grips. In this way it is not a clothed grappling method. Of course (I hope) you are not actually wrestling naked.

 

[Juany118]

Not true at all. Judo and BJJ gis are strong in order that they can be used repeatedly without breaking, not so that the practitioner becomes reliant upon the strength of them. A person in a t-shirt and shorts still presents multiple handles that can be used against them, as well as having a handy garotte around their neck (much more effective for choking than a thick inflexible gi). In fact ripping weak clothing and bunching it is in some ways better than a purpose made gi in that it is painful and restricts movement much more effectively. Weak clothes can be ripped intentionally and used to rag someone around while restricting arm movement and ability to respond.

The other great thing about training in clothing is that methods which don't use the clothing (wrestling takedowns and controls, various submissions), need to be made to work with the clothing on, which is much more difficult. In this way applying them while not wearing bulky clothing becomes much easier.

A third way in which clothing helps is that it encourages a different way of using the body, encourages better hips, more use of legs, less likely to be square and double weighted. Wrestlers in gis are in many ways very easy to throw in a gi because they generally lack the hips and leg usage. Interestingly wrestlers with this usually come from countries like Georgia, Khazakstan and other ex soviet republics, where they have jacket wrestling folk styles.

Lastly training in a jacket produces an understanding of grips, grip fighting and grip breaking that is impossible to get in any other way. With this knowledge it is remarkably easy to stall, frustrate and beat larger, stronger, more athletic and more skilled no-gi wrestlers. Hard to understand why someone wouldn't want to learn to use this knowledge offensively, to understand how to break and overcome cloth gripping defence (which people do naturally when in a defensive grappling situation), and to understand how to use grips to frustrate and win against better opposition defensively?

To sum up, training in the gi is essential as it provides several benefits not available without gi. Most serious grapplers train both gi and no gi, which is the most sensible and comprehensive approach, gaining the benefits of the gi and maintaining familiarity with no gi.

Again, I am not saying that clothing isn't a benefit to grappling, where you keep getting that idea is beyond me. As for the durability of the judogi I know why it is made the way it is and a consequence of that is that it won't rip/tear. I assume you have never actually had to grapple in anger and/or have the shirt of the resisting opponent rip, rather quickly, to the point that the person was free and that said shirt was now only useful as a garrote, which being lethal force would be a HUGE no no in the vast majority of self defense circumstances.

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[Steve]

That is my entire point, most Judo schools you go to A. Say they teach self defense and B. Train almost exclusively in "uniformed."

As far as a fully resisting subject if you are in a fight that other person, whether you are a cop or not will be fully resisting, whether it be trying to avoid your punch, getting grabbed/taken down etc. The only difference between cop and non-cop is that, for the cop, 95% of the time the violence you are dealing with once you go hands on is given violence intended to escape, if you are defending yourself the violence is intended to permit the subject to remain and continue to attack.

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I'm distrustful of anyone who claims to teach self defense.

 

[Steve]

I'll warrant that a cop sees more "fully resisting" subjects (since they have to detain them and the subject knows it), than someone doing SD. But if I'm going for a lock, I wouldn't expect the person NOT to resist unless I manage to slip perfectly into the gaps.

i is agree but that's not going to port to a non cop in a meaningful way. I don't routinely chase bad guys with my gun and taser.

 

[Steve]

As is often the case, I think we differ in a way that may only matter intellectually. How the individual defines "traditional" will affect what "tradition" is is that they value. So, if we combine the essence of my definition with the essence of your observation, they are actually pretty compatible. If someone defines the "tradition" as being the lineage and the way the techniques are done, they're likely to hold that as having higher value than other aspects. For me, "traditional" tends to be more a cultural thing, in that "traditional" martial arts (by my definition) tend to observe some of the cultural rituals from the arts origin, and enjoy some of the ritual found in traditional training techniques, where those techniques are considered effective. So, for me, I have actually wrought some changes on how I deliver the art, added to (and in some senses removed from) what I was taught. However, I've held onto some practices that have alternatives, but the alternatives don't seem to have significant additional value for me, so all else being roughly equal I prefer to keep the tradition, but when there's something I don't think is effective (like the traditional first-aid training, for instance), I replace it (with modern first-aid certification).

I think that's in line with your observation, given how I personally define "traditional". I'm not sure how much anyone (you included) would/should care - just an intellectual rambling.

I think it matters only in that it helps identify where the conflict is coming from. Tma is from mars and mma is from Venus. Or some such.

 

[Steve]

Again, I am not saying that clothing isn't a benefit to grappling, where you keep getting that idea is beyond me. As for the durability of the judogi I know why it is made the way it is and a consequence of that is that it won't rip/tear. I assume you have never actually had to grapple in anger and/or have the shirt of the resisting opponent rip, rather quickly, to the point that the person was free and that said shirt was now only useful as a garrote, which being lethal force would be a HUGE no no in the vast majority of self defense circumstances.

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I've dumped an idiot on his butt using his jacket without a problem.

I'm curious why you think people only wear t-shirts. Here in the Seattle area, people wear jackets almost year round. Maybe its not as cut and dry as you're trying to make it seem.

 

[Juany118]

I'm distrustful of anyone who claims to teach self defense.

I agree, that is why I only ever consider schools that let you "try before you buy."

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[Juany118]

I've dumped an idiot on his butt using his jacket without a problem.

I'm curious why you think people only wear t-shirts. Here in the Seattle area, people wear jackets almost year round. Maybe its not as cut and dry as you're trying to make it seem.

Well I am not even just talking t-shirts. I once had my bell rung trying to do a takedown on a guy that weighed a bit over 200 lbs. The sleeves of his hoodie ripped and I found my head bouncing off the street. Yes a heavy coat or jacket and you are probably fine but "regular" shirts in general, not just t-shirts, hoodies etc are surprisingly fragile in a real fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i is agree but that's not going to port to a non cop in a meaningful way. I don't routinely chase bad guys with my gun and taser.

Agreed. That was my point - I think I missed your original point.

 

[Steve]

Alright. I think we've hit this one hard enough. Let's get back to why you guys think there's a need to be recognized as superior in wing chun.

 

[geezer]

Wrestling doesn't utilise cloth grips. In this way it is not a clothed grappling method. Of course (I hope) you are not actually wrestling naked.

Western civilization learned many wonderful things from the ancient Greeks. But personally, I am also glad that wrestling naked wasn't one of the traditions we adopted!

 

[Juany118]

Alright. I think we've hit this one hard enough. Let's get back to why you guys think there's a need to be recognized as superior in wing chun.

I don't think any of us said it was "necessary" only that if it is done it is based on a cultural tradition to show respect to one's elders and/or teachers. Some of us think that's a good thing, others are likely indifferent, some clearly disagree but I don't recall anyone saying it is something that MUST be done.

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[Gerry Seymour]

Alright. I think we've hit this one hard enough. Let's get back to why you guys think there's a need to be recognized as superior in wing chun.

Wait, is that why those words keep showing up at the top of my screen??

 

[Steve]

I don't think any of us said it was "necessary" only that if it is done it is based on a cultural tradition to show respect to one's elders and/or teachers. Some of us think that's a good thing, others are likely indifferent, some clearly disagree but I don't recall anyone saying it is something that MUST be done.

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My general opinion is that if you're training in a school where you don't actually, genuinely respect your instructors, you're in the wrong school. But that's all I'll really say on that subject, because I admittedly don't understand the intricacies of Chinese culture.

 

[Juany118]

My general opinion is that if you're training in a school where you don't actually, genuinely respect your instructors, you're in the wrong school. But that's all I'll really say on that subject, because I admittedly don't understand the intricacies of Chinese culture.

I would definitely agree on your first point. Why would anyone study under someone they don't see as superior. I would also argue that the respect should go up the chain so to speak. Ergo I respect my Sifu, his Sifu and then his Sifu, Sigung William Cheung as my Sifu wouldn't be the teacher he is without them.

That sort of helps to explain part of the general tradition as it is based in large part on filial piety. In essence my Sifu is my Wing Chun father, his Sifu my Grandfather, then Sigung Cheung my Great Grandfather.

Speaking of Sigung Cheung, in 2017 he will be coming to visit us. If people are interested when I get the dates and location(s) I will post em.



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[Juany118]

My general opinion is that if you're training in a school where you don't actually, genuinely respect your instructors, you're in the wrong school. But that's all I'll really say on that subject, because I admittedly don't understand the intricacies of Chinese culture.

Let me add one other reason. There is a school in the town I work. I have never studied under the Sifu but when I stop in while on duty I show him respect. Why? If his school was about turning a profit of any sort (he takes a loss some months) he would have closed the doors a few years ago. He keeps the school going because the town is economically depressed and the school not only keeps the kids off the street at night but teaches them discipline and helps instill the confidence needed so the kids can keep themselves out of trouble.

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[Flying Crane]

Western civilization learned many wonderful things from the ancient Greeks. But personally, I am also glad that wrestling naked wasn't one of the traditions we adopted!

It depends on with whom I am wrestling.

 

[guy b]

Again, I am not saying that clothing isn't a benefit to grappling, where you keep getting that idea is beyond me.

I am arguing against the idea that training in a gi is not advantageous for real fighting. On the contrary, it is better. In real life people wear clothes.

I assume you have never actually had to grapple in anger and/or have the shirt of the resisting opponent rip

You assume wrong.

to the point that the person was free and that said shirt was now only useful as a garrote, which being lethal force would be a HUGE no no in the vast majority of self defense circumstances.

Choking someone out doesn't result in death if you know what you are doing. In fact it is a remarkably low damage and safe way of stopping an aggressive encounter. It can easily be done against an untrained person with them looking like the aggressor.