The Importance of Kata

[K-man]

In the thread Classical v. Reality? discussion has included reference to 'advanced' training and techniques in kata that are not readily apparent and as such may never be taught by many instructors. Because I strongly believe that kata is the singularly most important part of my MA training, I am posting a link to a website with an interesting article by a gentleman, Master L.P.Lambert, regarding the importance of kata and towards the end of the article the author writes about different 'stages' of kata.

http://www.pressurepointkarate.com/kata.htm

I look forward, in anticipation, to your comments. :asian:

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thanks for the link , it was a good read. I consider my forms in tkd as very important in my development and really enjoy doing them and trying to really understand them. I know a lot of people dont see much purpose to form/kata but I think they are very important in your own understanding of the art.

 

[MJS]

In the thread Classical v. Reality? discussion has included reference to 'advanced' training and techniques in kata that are not readily apparent and as such may never be taught by many instructors. Because I strongly believe that kata is the singularly most important part of my MA training, I am posting a link to a website with an interesting article by a gentleman, Master L.P.Lambert, regarding the importance of kata and towards the end of the article the author writes about different 'stages' of kata.

http://www.pressurepointkarate.com/kata.htm

I look forward, in anticipation, to your comments. :asian:

Great post! And this is so true, its not funny. Years ago, when I began my martial arts journey, I'd often ask, during kata practice, what the moves were, what their purpose was, etc. The conversation went something like this:

Me: I'm confused on this move. What exactly are we doing here?

Inst: Well, we do this move.................................................................................................because thats the way the kata was created.

Me: Ok. And I'd continue training, with that lagging question, never being answered.

Fortunately for me, and this still holds true to this day, I trained with people who were able to show me not just one, but numerous applications, as well as push me to find my own breakdowns of kata. Now, some people will frown upon kata, saying that you wont fight with kata, say that other arts such as JKD dont have kata, and feel that the teacher should spoon feed the students, showing them everything, not making the student do any thinking.

What these people fail to see, is that no, you wont move and fight exactly like you would, but if I were to take a basic kata from the Parker system of Kenpo, say Short Form 2, just with the initial move, which is stepping forward with your right foot, while doing a rt. inward block, followed by a right outward knife hand, on my own, I can come up with quite a few breakdowns of what that move is doing. Additionally, Mr. Parker was a genius when it came to giving huge breakdowns of what each kata was teaching you.

When I teach a kata, either Kenpo or Arnis, I usually give at least one breakdown for each move. However, I tell the student that they need to figure things out for themselves as well. IMO, if you make the person think, they'll have a much better understanding of what they're doing. Think about this...we could perform our techs with no problem. Now, stand in front of a bunch of students, who dont know the tech. you're teaching. Now you have to think, break it down, and put it into words that they are going to understand. Its easy to say we know something, but do we really 'know it?'

Another point....everyone will have their opinion of the man, but rather than just listen to others, I wanted my own opinion, so when George Dillman came to my area a number of years ago, I made a point of attending. It was interesting, because some of the kata breakdowns that he was doing, were kata very similar to my SKK days, when I was training at a Villari school. I had to laugh to myself, because some of the very moves that he was showing, were ones that I asked my teacher about, the same moves my teacher couldn't answer, the moves that he would sometimes make up a crazy explaination for, yet Dillman showed things that day, that made complete, total sense. 10 times more realistic and practical than what I was shown years before.

I do feel that, in addition to kata, we should spar, and train empty hand techs. with resistance. Again, I like kata, and feel it is important, but IMO, its just one piece of the martial arts puzzle.

Sorry for the long rant.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In the book I just finished reading yesterday, "Zen and the Art of Street Fighting: True Battles of a Modern-Day Warrior," by Jack Sabat, he speaks at length about kata in a way I had not thought of before.

As he describes it, life has a kata - a 'way of doing' - such that everyone 'does kata' in a certain sense. Everything is kata, if one chooses to recognize it.

With regard to your original point, this is something that I hear over and over again at my dojo. "Live in the kata" is the refrain, and we are fortunate indeed to have sensei who have trained with the best, such as Master Sherman Harrill, who taught bunkai as if it were a religion. The applications 'hidden' within the kata of my style (isshyinryu) are mind-boggling, staggering, and thoroughly devastating techniques. As we do self-defense training, sensei will stop and ask us "What kata is that from?" and although I seldom see it immediately, someone always knows the answer, and once enlightened, I can plainly see where it is from. The kata is like knowing the alphabet. You don't write a novel by spelling ABCDEFG, etc, but you must have all the letters and know the rules of their use in order to write that novel. The kata are the basis for any application, as I am beginning to see it.

Getting back to Jack Sabat's book, he talks several times about how he watched a master doing kata, and how it became almost palpable how his 'adversary' would become visible to him as he watched from the sidelines. He could see the defensive and offensive movements and how they were being applied, watch the foes being vanquished. He also claimed to be able to see the 'kata' in breaking, which I don't quite get, but I liked the way he described it.

In our dojo, for my next belt I also have to be learning the 'backside' of the kata, as we call it. That's performing the part of the aggressor as someone else does the kata, supplying them with the 'reason' to perform a given block, kick, punch, or etc (a bit more than just being a good uke). This is something I quite understand, even though I am not good at it at the moment. We emphasize being able to 'see' the attack coming as we do the kata movements. We're 'living in the kata' as we do it - if we're doing it right, that is.

I have asked my senseis on several occasions what the bunkai is for a given move in a kata, and the explanation is always immediate, thorough, and I very much get it. They never shrug or give me an "I dunno, that's just the way we do it, I guess." They know why we perform each move, they know many applications for every single movement (amazing) and they're all clearly effective to my eyes. I'm (hopefully) not a dummy - if they were BS'ing me, I think I'd see that. I'm a newbie, but I'm not some star-struck kid; I can see if something works or does not work. The bunkai they show me clearly works, and man oh man would I hate to be on the receiving end of it for real.

In short, I love kata. I am not good at it, but I will persist and I hope to keep sinking deeper and deeper into it. I feel that it is the basis for real self-defense, and even the basis for an understanding of some of the more esoteric studies of karate.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I think the “hidden” parts to a kata are only hidden to those who have not been training for many years.

In solo iaido practice we are hitting the targets called for, we are punching the sword into the chest cavity, we are cutting down into the shoulder, and we are ripping the triceps. Of course we are, it’s solo kata.

In pairs kata, kenjitsu or jodo, we have partners who can be and are on occasion hurt by our actions. So we can’t “really” hit the top of the head, we can’t “really” break the wrist and we can’t “really” drive through their throat. So we take targets in the vicinity of our “true” targets.

In jodo for example, I hit the sword out of the way and drive forward. In reality? I’m breaking the wrist, and driving forward, but because we have to go drink beer afterwards and get up for work in the morning, we don’t do such things.

The kata says do it this way. Why? Because its simply safer that way.

 

[still learning]

Hello, The whole idea of Kata's is to build memory for the body and mind (without thinking of it)...

If one does Kata daily...and for life...there is great benifits...
If one does Kata once an awhile for class requirements? ...It will do little for them..

Like everything in life....more one practices (correctly)...more one will make the moves a part of them...

Only in Martial arts..it has a FIX moves (Katas) ...from past era's ....still use and some modified for the present times..

Look at all the other sports..BJJ,wrestling,football,baseball,basket ball, GOLF....the greats... They do NOT have a fix (KATA"S)..They just practice harder than the rest...
Doing the same things over and over and over (correctly)...looking for perfections and building muscles(whole body too)..and Memory (do it without thinking)...

The Importance of Kata? ....It works..if done and one practice "Alot"...

Like everything in life...the more you do it..the more it becomes a part of you...

Is Kata's the only way? ....Off NOT!

We learn by doing....( to fight for real? ) ...one must learn to fight in a realistic way..

Aloha, ...just my thoughts here...BE NICE!

 

[KELLYG]

Kata/Poomse is very important in training. I found the attached article that the OP posted very informative. As for the "hidden" information, I think that it is not really hidden but is revealed once your personal expertise catches up to it.

I also feel that once the basics have been nailed then the person preforming the poomse adds their own flavor, which is another level that should be listed as well. This is where the mastery level is found, you can have two practitioners that can do the same poomse and it is viewed by the audience in two different ways. One you can see the actual fight, the other you can see the truly artistic aspects of the form, both of which are quite beautiful. With all things being equal, they are the same form preformed by equally talented people but still inherently different.

I guess that is why a Martial Art can be studied for a life time.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Kata/Poomse is very important in training. I found the attached article that the OP posted very informative. As for the "hidden" information, I think that it is not really hidden but is revealed once your personal expertise catches up to it.

I am no expert, but my feeling is that if one's instructor cannot explain or demonstrate the bunkai inside the kata, one may never 'get it'. I think a person can become incredibly good at performing a kata without any regard to what it means or why they are doing it. There is no need to 'look deeper' unless one has a personal interest in doing so - or an instructor who insists on showing and demonstrating it.

I agree that a person can discover new and novel applications for a particular move from their kata (or perhaps be rediscovering what was already known to some, but forgotten over the years), but I believe it would take a special person to want to find such applications and to discover them on their own. Such a person is to be admired; but a good teacher could spare them much of that effort as well as guide them into that journey to begin with.

That to me is a difference between a 'technician' and an 'engineer'. A technician is quite good at doing. An engineer knows why. At the moment, I am neither, but I aim for engineer. I am fortunate to have instructors who themselves are engineers.

 

[geezer]

I am no expert, but my feeling is that if one's instructor cannot explain or demonstrate the bunkai inside the kata, one may never 'get it'.

I agree completely. I currently practice forms in my system for which I do not fully understand the applications... or if I understand them, I am not yet skilled enough to pull them off in "real time" sparring. However, my instructor is bringing me along, and in time, I trust that he will fill me in.

As far as some "never getting it", in my core art, Yip Man lineage Ving Tsun, I've seen many so-called masters who clearly do not know realistic applications for certain techniques in our advanced sets. A number of "experts" have invented their own versions of some of the forms, either to make the movements more flashy and commercially appealing or to conceal the fact that they were never taught the movements themselves.

Interestingly, there is a lot of variation in the forms of this system even between those who have legitimate knowledge. This is where open sharing of application is critical. If someone does a form differently, but the movements accurately correspond to the applications they have in mind, then they are doing good form. If form follows function, who am I to object?

 

[KELLYG]

I am no expert, but my feeling is that if one's instructor cannot explain or demonstrate the bunkai inside the kata, one may never 'get it'. I think a person can become incredibly good at performing a kata without any regard to what it means or why they are doing it. There is no need to 'look deeper' unless one has a personal interest in doing so - or an instructor who insists on showing and demonstrating it.

I am with y'a there Bill. I am fortunate enough to have teachers that do insist on showing the deeper side of poomse and we as students are inquisitive enough to ask questions, if for some reason we don't understand, either in class or privately. Preforming Poomse is a lot easier to understand, and preform, once you know what is behind each technique.

 

[MJS]

I think the “hidden” parts to a kata are only hidden to those who have not been training for many years.

In solo iaido practice we are hitting the targets called for, we are punching the sword into the chest cavity, we are cutting down into the shoulder, and we are ripping the triceps. Of course we are, it’s solo kata.

In pairs kata, kenjitsu or jodo, we have partners who can be and are on occasion hurt by our actions. So we can’t “really” hit the top of the head, we can’t “really” break the wrist and we can’t “really” drive through their throat. So we take targets in the vicinity of our “true” targets.

In jodo for example, I hit the sword out of the way and drive forward. In reality? I’m breaking the wrist, and driving forward, but because we have to go drink beer afterwards and get up for work in the morning, we don’t do such things.

The kata says do it this way. Why? Because its simply safer that way.

So in other words, you're saying that if the person trains for a longer period of time, that they're going to be able to figure out the hidden moves themselves? Yeah, I can see your point, but I still feel that the person should be guided on the correct path. I mean, I've been training for a long time, and I've seen some crazy breakdowns of kata, many of which, once I got another point of view, I thought..man, those original breakdowns sucked. LOL.

I'd also go so far as to say that if people dont understand the kata, they're going to come up with their own variations, ones that aren't practical, and in the end, it'll take away from the kata, making it watered down. I have to wonder...are some of the crazy moves that we see, really ones that were original moves, or ones that were added in by less knowledgeable people.

 

[seasoned]

In the book I just finished reading yesterday, "Zen and the Art of Street Fighting: True Battles of a Modern-Day Warrior," by Jack Sabat, he speaks at length about kata in a way I had not thought of before.

As he describes it, life has a kata - a 'way of doing' - such that everyone 'does kata' in a certain sense. Everything is kata, if one chooses to recognize it.

With regard to your original point, this is something that I hear over and over again at my dojo. "Live in the kata" is the refrain, and we are fortunate indeed to have sensei who have trained with the best, such as Master Sherman Harrill, who taught bunkai as if it were a religion. The applications 'hidden' within the kata of my style (isshyinryu) are mind-boggling, staggering, and thoroughly devastating techniques. As we do self-defense training, sensei will stop and ask us "What kata is that from?" and although I seldom see it immediately, someone always knows the answer, and once enlightened, I can plainly see where it is from. The kata is like knowing the alphabet. You don't write a novel by spelling ABCDEFG, etc, but you must have all the letters and know the rules of their use in order to write that novel. The kata are the basis for any application, as I am beginning to see it.

Getting back to Jack Sabat's book, he talks several times about how he watched a master doing kata, and how it became almost palpable how his 'adversary' would become visible to him as he watched from the sidelines. He could see the defensive and offensive movements and how they were being applied, watch the foes being vanquished. He also claimed to be able to see the 'kata' in breaking, which I don't quite get, but I liked the way he described it.

In our dojo, for my next belt I also have to be learning the 'backside' of the kata, as we call it. That's performing the part of the aggressor as someone else does the kata, supplying them with the 'reason' to perform a given block, kick, punch, or etc (a bit more than just being a good uke). This is something I quite understand, even though I am not good at it at the moment. We emphasize being able to 'see' the attack coming as we do the kata movements. We're 'living in the kata' as we do it - if we're doing it right, that is.

I have asked my senseis on several occasions what the bunkai is for a given move in a kata, and the explanation is always immediate, thorough, and I very much get it. They never shrug or give me an "I dunno, that's just the way we do it, I guess." They know why we perform each move, they know many applications for every single movement (amazing) and they're all clearly effective to my eyes. I'm (hopefully) not a dummy - if they were BS'ing me, I think I'd see that. I'm a newbie, but I'm not some star-struck kid; I can see if something works or does not work. The bunkai they show me clearly works, and man oh man would I hate to be on the receiving end of it for real.

In short, I love kata. I am not good at it, but I will persist and I hope to keep sinking deeper and deeper into it. I feel that it is the basis for real self-defense, and even the basis for an understanding of some of the more esoteric studies of karate.

You have nailed it down, with a very good explanation of kata, and how you see it. Good job Bill, and for the record, a newbie you may be, but a serious student you are.

 

[Telfer]

I was kinda surprised to learn that even Mike Tyson did Kata...of sorts.

His coach would have a system where each move was given a number and he would call out different sequences of numbers while Tyson was shadow boxing.

To make it even more difficult something called a 'slip bag' was used.
I think thats what its called???

This was a sand bag swinging back and forth around Mike's head, so he'd have to bob and weave to avoid getting socked in the head while doing the sequences.

 

[seasoned]

Without the use of a computer, and writing material was scarce, doing was the only avenue to categorizing and remembering the moves. The old kata were battle proven, and battle Field ready. They weren't about winning, but all about destroying. Anyone wishing to get more out of their given kata based art, should first, fully understand their art. Kata is the blueprint, but anyone familiar with construction knows that blueprints are the base to follow, but the real work is in the doing. Any art produces an artist, and an artist is one that can take the plan and mold it to fit themselves. We must first learn the kata, then own the kata. How important is kata, there were masters of old that staked their lives on them.

 

[Ken Morgan]

From my perspective in the JSA

We take months or years to learn the dance steps of a kata. What hand goes where, which leg/foot goes where, the correct angle etc, etc. The basics of what we are doing in the kata is explained to us.

Then we move onto years of perfecting and ingraining the movements. Adding in power, understanding and feeling to the kata.

If we have a good teacher they are not necessarily telling us, or showing us the “true” targets, they are encouraging us to really “think” about the kata. “From this position, what else can I hit?” “OK, you’ve missed, now what do you do?” Telling us the answer is so much easier, but having an epiphany through self realization of what you are doing is much more fulfilling. Being told to backup and look at the kata from a different set of eyes can help you figure things out.

Sometimes its best to look at kata as a beginner, once you get experienced you may fail to see what was once obvious.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I teach the Kata that where taught to me the way they where taught. I simply say : do a down block here or this is called a crazy turn then do a high block, etc. Once a student reaches a certain level I have them perform the Kata against opponents. I then say ok I want to see a different application the form doing it as it has been taught, You tell the opponent what kick or punch to do then show me something different than what I first taught you .
This starts to open the students mind to what some of the applications may be yet dose not change the form in any manner.

 

[K-man]

I have a friend who runs a large karate school. He requires his blackbelts to know one extra application for each technique, up to 5th dan (5 at godan). Realistically, I not sure that many of the applications demonstrated have much worth in practice, but the principle of searching for new meanings is sound and make his students think.
MJS mentioned attending a GD seminar and getting benefit or understanding. I have a number of his DVDs and, for me, they they have also been very informative.
However, everything that has been mentioned so far applies to the basic form of kata. This is kata that I have seen termed 'Kihon' Kata, kihon in this instance not being the name of a kata but meaning 'basic'. This is the same kata that is performed in tournaments and gradings up to high dan level. In this form the stances and techniques are clearly defined and visible. They are performed with good form and strength. We can clearly see the mechanics of any particular move and work on its target(s) and meaning or meanings.
I am choosing my words carefully here, not wanting to offend, but has anyone here been training their kata at the next level, as is alluded to by L.P.Lambert in his article refered to in the OP? :asian:

 

[seasoned]

Kata is the vehicle that takes us into old age, and still remain functional. At first, kata, 60's era, was a means of winning trophies, and getting promoted to the next level. Bunkai was limited, and we were never allowed to ask questions. This was common in Okinawa where both of my instructors trained while in the military. There was a "just do" attitude that they brought back with them, along with a very strict adherence to techniques and form. Basically the bunkai, was a what you see is what you are doing thing, and we would train drills with a partner on kata night. As we progressed through the ranks, there was a black belt training night where things were a little more open, and stories were told about training in Okinawa. Because of the language barrier in Okinawa, teaching was more of a do as I do, with a lot of correction of hand and foot positioning. It wasn't until later on, when a select few were invited back to Okinawa, that more of the puzzle was added. It seems like a lot of secrecy, but we need to understand that after the war, Okinawa was devastated and there was not much they could offer, to make a living. Karate was a means of survival for them. And survive they did, with a pipe line from there to here through some very dedicated people. Hopefully I did not bore anyone, but the above is how it was for me, and many others, I would assume. Now back to the question, "The Importance of Kata" and also K-Man's question, "has anyone here been training their kata at the next level". I would say, I hope so, because kata is all we will have in old age. I am reminded of the stories of old GoJu masters that would walk slow, talk very calculated, but would take the opportunity from time to time to demo a kata. People would watch in amazement, of the power yet fluid movements of poetry in motion. That is where I want to be.

 

[jamz]

Thanks for that great link, it's bookmarked now.

 

[MJS]

From my perspective in the JSA

We take months or years to learn the dance steps of a kata. What hand goes where, which leg/foot goes where, the correct angle etc, etc. The basics of what we are doing in the kata is explained to us.

Then we move onto years of perfecting and ingraining the movements. Adding in power, understanding and feeling to the kata.

If we have a good teacher they are not necessarily telling us, or showing us the “true” targets, they are encouraging us to really “think” about the kata. “From this position, what else can I hit?” “OK, you’ve missed, now what do you do?” Telling us the answer is so much easier, but having an epiphany through self realization of what you are doing is much more fulfilling. Being told to backup and look at the kata from a different set of eyes can help you figure things out.

Sometimes its best to look at kata as a beginner, once you get experienced you may fail to see what was once obvious.

IMO, there is a difference between not showing because you dont know, and not showing because you want the student to think for themselves. If we tell them nothing in kata, then by that same logic, we dont have to tell them anything when showing self defense technqiues either. Just simply tell them to move this way and that way, and figure out what they're doing and why.

I feel, and again, this is just my opinion, that the student needs some sort of foundation to build off of. Lets use the SD techs. as an example. I teach a tech. to someone for a preset attack. I also teach them how to block, punch, kick, move, etc. I've run technique lines, and tossed out an attack to a newer student, an attack that they didn't know a preset defense against, and they give that deer in the headlights look. Upon asking them if they know how to block, move, punch and kick, to which they say yes, the light then goes off, so to speak, and they learn to build from there. But the preset tech., and the explaination of the basics and how to put them together, all aids in that. Eventually, the goal, IMO, is to just react without having to think. But when you react, you want to react with something thats going to make sense, not some hodgepodge of moves, tossed together, in hopes that what you're doing works or will work.

Back to the kata....it was interesting for me, when I was at that Dillman seminar. Things that I thought were designed to block a kick, were really pressure point hits, designed to flow with other moves, to hopefully get a KO. Again, if the instructor knows the true meanings, and is guiding the student, letting them think, but also guiding them to whats right and wrong, then fine, I can agree with that. If the inst. is simply letting the student loose, never correcting them, never guiding them, then IMO, the student may a) come up with some weird translation, which could be ineffective or b) never understand what the kata was really designed to do.