FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
Hadn't heard that one. Very interesting. Is that just hearsay or has anyone gone on record etc to suggest that?
The General
- Thread starter terryl965
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Hadn't heard that one. Very interesting. Is that just hearsay or has anyone gone on record etc to suggest that?
KarateMomUSA
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I thought that may catch an eye or 2. Good ready FieldDiscipline. The answer is yes & no. No one went on record to suggest that directly that I am aware of. However some have said both on & off the record that they believe that the US CIA funded Gen Choi's 1973 ITF TKD world tour.
Gen Choi spoke often with his relationship with an American CIA man who did TKD.
Now the speculation part:
I keep harping that to know TKD's history & how it developed, one must know Korean history & Korean politics. We know that Gen Choi exiled himself from Korea to Canada in 1972. We also know from the study of Korean history that 1972 was the height of brutality of Gen Park's military dictatorship. (See Dr Cummings & Dr Armstrong, PhDs & professors at Chicago & Columbia who are often quoted experts on Korea). We know that south Korea & the USA were aligned politically, but had drastically different political systems at the time (1972). We know that the USA has propped up &worked with dictators before (Saddam Hussein for 1). We also know that they would work hard to monitor the regimes for obvious reasons. We also know how bad the KCIA was around the world from Congressional & FBI records of the US-Koreagate scandal of the 1970s. We also know that the KCIA was renamed the National Intelligence Service (NIS) by a civilian democratically elected present.
Is it a far stretch to say or think that a major-general, a founding member of the ROK Army, former head of their Military Intelligence, who wrote their 1st book on it, an Ambassador & someone who knew the miltary dictator, a fellow general & somone who had a world-wide & growing TKD network in place, at a time when the martial arts craze was peaking in the West, would be a valuable asset to US intelligence officials?
I know conspiracy theory, sound the weird science fiction music now!
Stay with me, as here is where the next part of understanding Korean politics comes in:
In 1979 we see Gen Park get killed by his own KCIA man. Gen Choi & his followers clearly see an opening in south Korea now. In fact all Koreans think or hope that political reform will come, to go along side their economic progress (think China today). But what happens; another military general (Chun Do Hwan) with a coup as he takes advantage of the chaos with his coup. Gen Choi, now far removed from the scene, may have ran out his usefulness from a US standpoint. What does he do in 1979? Go to north Korea! In 1980 he brings TKD there & gets the much needed support he needs for his TKD & the ITF. He continues his vocal outspoken criticism of this new dictator, who was as brutal, if not more so & did not bring the economic miracle that Gen Park did. So the people do not have the same tolerance or appreciation that they had of & for Gen Park. The 2nd dictator is forced out by 1988, when the largest Olympics to that point was coming to Seoul, compliments BTW in large part to the magic of Dr Kim's leadership. Also look again at China as they tried to clean up their image for the 2008 Beijing Olympics.
Just a couple of years later, the Iron Curtain tears, the Berlin wall is knocked down, the USSR dissolves & north Korea loses much of its support. Likewise Gen Choi lost his strategic wedge that he held when the communist nations, especially in Eastern Europe fall, that he was trying to use for his TKD.
We really have to understand Korean politics & history if we are to more fully understand the history of TKD & its development
I am glad you started this forum the exchanges have been interesting and informative. I think it is understandable for anyone who has spent decades under a particular Pioneer to not have personal bias or better yet loyalty to what they believe their original martial arts father's opinions or feelings were.
I do believe the largest research library and decades of knowledge of that does in many cases trump personal opinion. However I was also encouraged by the statement from one of the learned posters on the General has formed many of his opinions based on personal discussions with many of the Pioneers and their personal views and experiences. It seems to me and college professors were of the same opinion that a person cannot always believe what is printed. For me it seems related to tkd that history keeps getting rewritten every so many years?
When I transferred from CA. to Oregon in 1973 I wanted to continue TKD and with out knowing went to the first TKD Dojang I could find which turned out to be a ITF Pioneer and obviously completely different than WTF KKW. I was very happy to find GM Tae Hong Choi and stayed with him to present. When I asked him about ITF he made only one comment that it was not sanctioned by the Korean Government and it was started by General Choi and he was in exile in Canada and they would kill him if they could because he was considered a traitor.
In the previous posts information was given related to Gen Choi teaching TangSue Do and teaching in North Korea. GM Tae Hong Choi's bio on Wikipedia lists him as being born in South Korea but his discussions with me said that he and his mother escaped from the North to the South when he was very young? In the 90's I was told that GM Tae Hong Choi was 5th Dan in TangSue before switching to TKD formally and he was always a very loyal member of Jido Kwan and seemed to indicate he had knowledge of or had trained with the founder of Jido Kwan? I am just wondering if anyone would have info on what actual Tang Sue he might have studied and with whom?
He always talked of being 1st cousin to Mas Oyama and realted many personal comments and stories of him and I think mentioned training in Japan but I do not know if he had any true lineage to him. He is listed as one of Mas Oyama's prominent students.
I do believe the largest research library and decades of knowledge of that does in many cases trump personal opinion. However I was also encouraged by the statement from one of the learned posters on the General has formed many of his opinions based on personal discussions with many of the Pioneers and their personal views and experiences. It seems to me and college professors were of the same opinion that a person cannot always believe what is printed. For me it seems related to tkd that history keeps getting rewritten every so many years?
When I transferred from CA. to Oregon in 1973 I wanted to continue TKD and with out knowing went to the first TKD Dojang I could find which turned out to be a ITF Pioneer and obviously completely different than WTF KKW. I was very happy to find GM Tae Hong Choi and stayed with him to present. When I asked him about ITF he made only one comment that it was not sanctioned by the Korean Government and it was started by General Choi and he was in exile in Canada and they would kill him if they could because he was considered a traitor.
In the previous posts information was given related to Gen Choi teaching TangSue Do and teaching in North Korea. GM Tae Hong Choi's bio on Wikipedia lists him as being born in South Korea but his discussions with me said that he and his mother escaped from the North to the South when he was very young? In the 90's I was told that GM Tae Hong Choi was 5th Dan in TangSue before switching to TKD formally and he was always a very loyal member of Jido Kwan and seemed to indicate he had knowledge of or had trained with the founder of Jido Kwan? I am just wondering if anyone would have info on what actual Tang Sue he might have studied and with whom?
He always talked of being 1st cousin to Mas Oyama and realted many personal comments and stories of him and I think mentioned training in Japan but I do not know if he had any true lineage to him. He is listed as one of Mas Oyama's prominent students.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
As the KCIA stepped up there efforts, the ITF was near total collapse. In 1979 Gen Choi went to north Korea where he cut a deal with that totalitarian regime in exchange for support of the ITF. The next year (1980) he introduced his Taekwon-Do there. This was treason & was viewed even by many of his most loyal supporters as being an "anti-nationalist act". This gave the south Korean dictator(s) plenty of ammunition to wipe him out.
I am not sure when Gen Choi became a Canadian citizen, we could both check. I write mostly off the top of my head. However I don't think it is too important for the point I am trying to make, which is:
I beg to differ. It's extremely important if you're interested in putting forth accurate information. As far as I know, it's impossible for someone to be guilty of treason if they aren't a citizen of the country in question.
Undoubtedly the ROK government - and many, many normal Koreans - would have viewed Gen. Choi's trip to NK with great suspicion. But he had already left SK for Canada and was, IIRC, a Canadian citizen before 1979. They could be upset all they wanted, they could view him with contempt, say he was a communist, etc. But he certainly wasn't guilty of treason if this was the case.
I seriously doubt Gen. Choi had dual citizenship as he was trying to distance himself from the SK dictatorship as much as possible for his own safety. Nothing in his autobiography indicates that he retained SK citizenship.
Yes, I know all of this. But it's irrelevant to my point.
Sure. But anyone can be viewed in a particular way even if, legally, they don't qualify. Treason is a very specific charge. There are plenty of things for which Gen. Choi can be legitimately criticized. I'm not sure this is one of them.
Which can only really be done if we have as accurate information as possible.
True enough. Which is why throwing around terms like "treason" when it's not appropriate doesn't help.
Pax,
Chris
KarateMomUSA
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Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
As the KCIA stepped up there efforts, the ITF was near total collapse. In 1979 Gen Choi went to north Korea where he cut a deal with that totalitarian regime in exchange for support of the ITF. The next year (1980) he introduced his Taekwon-Do there. This was considered by many south Koreans as a treasonous act & was viewed even by many of his most loyal supporters as being an "anti-nationalist act". This gave the south Korean dictator(s) plenty of ammunition to wipe him out.
I am not sure when Gen Choi became a Canadian citizen, we could both check. I write mostly off the top of my head. However I don't think it is too important for the point I am trying to make, which is:
As the KCIA stepped up there efforts, the ITF was near total collapse. In 1979 Gen Choi went to north Korea where he cut a deal with that totalitarian regime in exchange for support of the ITF. The next year (1980) he introduced his Taekwon-Do there. This was considered by many south Koreans as a treasonous act & was viewed even by many of his most loyal supporters as being an "anti-nationalist act". This gave the south Korean dictator(s) plenty of ammunition to wipe him out.
I am not sure when Gen Choi became a Canadian citizen, we could both check. I write mostly off the top of my head. However I don't think it is too important for the point I am trying to make, which is:
I am sorry I tried to explain further & I thought that it may help temper my original remarks that I have now amended above to: This was considered by many south Koreans as a treasonous act
This misses my point. It is not a question of citizenship, dual or not. It is a matter of whether or not south Korean law would still govern his actions. Some countries will always consider you, if you are born in their country, a citizen subject to their laws no matter where you live. For example, some countries allow you to vote in their elections even if you live abroad, like Israel, which also I think makes military service mandatory as well. Italy has a somewhat similar provision for dual citizens. Americans living abroad that are dual citizens are still subject to US tax laws. I know Master Choi Jung Hwa, while he already served time in Canadian federal prison for a plot to kill the south Korean military dictator Gen Chun Do Hwan, had to face prosecutors & NIS (KCIA) investigators when he was finally allowed back in south Korea, home of his birth, after living abroad for decades as a Canadian citizen. I also think that south Korean prosecutors could have charged him with a crimes, even though the plot took place in Canada & he served his time there. So I am not 100% sure of the law in south Korea for Koreans. It is something worth researching
Again I see you valid point & have amended comment above. But I honestly don't know how th south Korean law is written. I know that over the years, the puppet president & the military dictators have always stretched provisions as they were & are in a technical state of war, with no formal peace treaty ever signed. They always claimed national security & I am sure at times it was more than justified
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
As the KCIA stepped up there efforts, the ITF was near total collapse. In 1979 Gen Choi went to north Korea where he cut a deal with that totalitarian regime in exchange for support of the ITF. The next year (1980) he introduced his Taekwon-Do there. This was considered by many south Koreans as a treasonous act & was viewed even by many of his most loyal supporters as being an "anti-nationalist act". This gave the south Korean dictator(s) plenty of ammunition to wipe him out.
I am not sure when Gen Choi became a Canadian citizen, we could both check. I write mostly off the top of my head. However I don't think it is too important for the point I am trying to make, which is:
I am sorry I tried to explain further & I thought that it may help temper my original remarks that I have now amended above to: This was considered by many south Koreans as a treasonous act
Oh, sure. But whether or not it was treason properlly so called is another matter. People were calling for Julian Assange to be brought up on treason charges for a while. But he was neither a U.S. citizen nor did he reside in America when he leaked all those classified documents. (The soldier he got the latest 250,000 plus documents might well be guilty of treason, but Assange is not. Espionage, maybe. But not treason.)
Sure, Korean law can still hold guilty someone who simply sets foot in North Korea, even if they aren't a Korean citizen (I suppose, for the sake of argument). But to equate that act with treason is to empty it of meaning. Treason covers disloyalty to one's sovereign nation. South Korea could be upset all it wanted, it could have tried to prosecute Gen. Choi for some other crime (which, as far as I know, it didn't do). It could do a lot of things. But it couldn't consider him guilty of treason.
The fact that Italy has provisions for dual citizens really backs up my point.
Does Israel allow non-citizens to vote in its elections? Because that would be the only parallel you could draw to this topic. Sure there's the Right of Return for Jews, but that's something very different as they don't enjoy any of the benefits of citizenship if they aren't yet Israeli citizens.
Again, this depends on being a dual citizen.
It would depend on if there were any statutes of limitations for those charges.
But, again, my point was that treason applies only to citizens of the state in question and possibly legal residents of the state in question. Because treason deals with crimes against one's sovereign state. Gen. Choi, as far as I can ascertain, wasn't a Korean citizen when he visited NK.
Oh, I don't doubt that. But how a non-citizen's trip to North Korea would qualify as trying to overthrow his soveriegn state is beyond me. Could he be guilty of something else for simply setting foot in North Korea? Well, maybe. But a Canadian citizen trying to "overthrow" the government of South Korea - when they aren't even a temporary resident in the ROK - isn't engaged in treason.
Pax and Merry Christmas,
Chris
KarateMomUSA
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Yes very good points & I should have said viewed it as treasonous etc. But also please keep in mind, Gen Choi did more than just set foot in the north & he set his feet there are many occasions, including being laid to rest there. I certainly can see the view point of south Koreans that are bitter towards Gen Choi for what they think was way past the line, even many of his most loyal instructors felt that his going to the north gave aid & comfort to their enemy & could no longer follow him, with some never being able to forgive him. This is a valid emotion, but your points I can not debate against, as they are valid & may even be technically or legally correct, which was your basic point.
Gen Choi was clearly a Canadian citizen according to Canadian law. I still do not know his status according to the ROK law. Their laws may still consider him a citizen no matter how many other citizen ships he obtained outside of Korea, as he was born Korean. If I am not mistaken, I may have read elsewhere that Koreans living abroad may still be required to serve in the military. But this is all speculation that will only be settled if someone cites the actual law.
Yes of course. But south Korea may still consider him a citizen & he was a high ranking member of their govt, in charge of military intelligence at a time. Gen Choi & who he was, certainly raised the bar, at least for some in the public perception arena, if not the legal arena
I have known Dr. Kimm personally for about twenty five years now, when he started visiting GM Ji's San Bruno dojang in the 80's. His father in law, who lived in Fremont, was sick, so he spent several months in Northern California. I even posed for pictures in his book once. One thing though, is that he was NOT there when things unfolded, at least with respect to Taekwondo. He came to the US in 1963, and prior to that, was not really into the Taekwondo scene.
KarateMomUSA
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Please Sir, you may not have the point of view that I have, but please do not misunderstand what I wrote, which was: he "lived in Korea during the time that some of these events unfolded".
He is an historian who clearly understands the context of the times that TKD developed in. He is a Korean that lived it. His wife's family escaped from the communists as they lived in Kaesong, north of the divide. He was actually born during the occupation. To me this is a most important perspective that is required knowledge & he has 1st hand experience.
