How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

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Laplace_demon

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Yes, but switch to what? Certainly nothing from ITF or Shotokan forms. The typical fighting stance we see for boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, MMA (to a lesser degree) is a similar relatively high stance with a fairly even weight distribution.

Apseogi isn't actually straight up, by the way. The weight is more over the front foot. It is a representation of a mobile fighting stance, and is certainly closer to the realistic starting point that many other TMA stances.

Now why would you bring Sport Fighting into the discussion? Different sports have different stances and guards. I am talking about the real world of fighting an attacker.
 

Gnarlie

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Does that include dance-offs? :)

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and handbags at dawn

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1307337/purse-fight-o.gif
 

TrueJim

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I am NOT a beginner by any reasonable definition. I have already stated repeatedly that there are black belts that cant kick. The fact that I can, doesnt mean I am good, compared to them, but in no way can I be considered beginner level outside of mere technicalities related to belts.

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the non-physical aspects of martial arts? Humility, courtesy, respect...the sort of thing most traditional martial arts say that high-level belts are supposed to exhibit?

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Gnarlie

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Now why would you bring Sport Fighting into the discussion? Different sports have different stances and guards. I am talking about the real world of fighting an attacker.

So am I. The basic Apseogi is the stance to use if you want to line someone up for a preemptive right, without it being immediately obvious that you are doing so.

Anyway, how about telling us what you are rather than what you aren't? So you're not a beginner? What is your experience then? What are your qualifications? Because, up to now, to quote two words you used recently when addressing me, 'pathetic dodge'.
 
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Do I need schooling of 5 years to be able to fight, to execute techniques. No. A great fighter is born, not created. That's why Anthony Pettis can come from ATA and kick the crap out of guys in Rufus well regarded academy.
 

Gnarlie

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Do I need schooling of 5 years to be able to fight, to execute techniques. No. A great fighter is born, not created. That's why Anthony Pettis can come from ATA and kick the crap out of guys in Rufus well regarded academy.
So you are claiming to be a great fighter? A natural talent? With your attitude? I don't think so...

(what you are really telling us is you don't have what it takes to see things through.)

Even the greatest talents need coaching. To think that you were born complete is frankly absurd. I wish you luck in life. You are going to need it.
 
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Laplace_demon

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Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the non-physical aspects of martial arts? Humility, courtesy, respect...the sort of thing most traditional martial arts say that high-level belts are supposed to exhibit?

859528d1388707923-custom-built-aluminum-bronsons-caine_and_master_po_candles.jpg

I don't like to be talked into how to act. I want to be myself. I view the martial art school as a place to get me fit. I don't worship my instructor.
 

Tez3

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So am I. The basic Apseogi is the stance to use if you want to line someone up for a preemptive right, without it being immediately obvious that you are doing so.

We have a similar stance in Wado Ryu, Hidarishizentai, for exactly the same reason. It's the stance that makes many think the English phrase 'there is no first strike in karate' is not an accurate translation or that it doesn't mean what we think it does at first sight.
 

Gnarlie

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I don't like to be talked into how to act. I want to be myself. I view the martial art school as a place to get me fit. I don't worship my instructor.
You don't have to.

I don't worship anyone. Neither do I let people tell me how to act. But I do listen when people suggest that I reflect on my own behaviour. That is at the core of Taekwondo - SELF improvement, not copying someone by rote.

Sounds like you think you're already perfect.
 
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Plenty of stuff I don't perform at expert level of which 99% is probably irrelevant for fighting(at least for my fighting style). But I still train and enjoy it.
 

TrueJim

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I don't like to be talked into how to act. I want to be myself.

I would argue that without humility, courtesy, respect, etc. - regardless of technique - one is not a very good martial artist. Perhaps one can be an effective fighter though.
 
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Laplace_demon

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Also, I call it the way I see it, and in the case of these patterns, even KKW guys agree that they are highly suspect.
 

Tez3

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To call something as you see it implies you have something to back up what you say. All we get from you is your opinion masquerading as fact, you never cite your sources or put anything down that can prove you correct. If you cannot prove your statements they remain merely opinions which don't carry any weight with those experts here. You are not an expert you are a beginner who believes he knows far more than he does, not a good place to be in. Empty your cup and you may yet become an expert, in other words wind your neck in until you learn enough to know what you don't know.
 
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Laplace_demon

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Which ones? Evidence please.

"The stances are much higher to the point of not being much of a stance at all and movements bob up and down to the point of distraction. The punches are unconvincing and the blocks just plain pitful. Worse yet, nobody seems to even care. Out of 5 dojangs I visited I saw no perceivable difference in Poomse quality. A multitude of youtube videos showed much the same from high ranking WTF instructors."

Karate vs. TaeKwonDo - Dysfunctional Parrot

I can show more, from people much more experienced in TKD, how they rip apart the stance and blocks of KKW patterns.
 
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TrueJim

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Dysfunctional Parrot entertains with hyperbole. Among his articles:
  • 5 Reasons Taekwondo is Awesome
  • 5 Reasons Taekwondo is Useless
  • 5 Reasons Karate is Useless
  • 5 Reasons Karate is Not Useless
He enjoys debating both sides of an issue, and his style of writing is to exaggerate for humorous effect...think Dave Barry.
 

Gnarlie

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"The stances are much higher to the point of not being much of a stance at all and movements bob up and down to the point of distraction. The punches are unconvincing and the blocks just plain pitful. Worse yet, nobody seems to even care. Out of 5 dojangs I visited I saw no perceivable difference in Poomse quality. A multitude of youtube videos showed much the same from high ranking WTF instructors."

Karate vs. TaeKwonDo - Dysfunctional Parrot

I can show more, from people much more experienced in TKD, how they rip apart the stance and blocks of KKW patterns.

That's not a credible source. I would ask him to provide evidence too, especially given that what he says is factually incorrect, just like a lot of what you say. And the fact that he is not a qualified KKW practitioner means this is not valid evidence to support your original point that even KKW practitioners find the forms suspect.

I am not asking you to provide other unfounded opinions. I am asking you to provide evidence of a credible, qualified practitioner of KKW TKD stating that they find the forms 'highly suspect'.

At this point, I am going to cease responding to your posts, and put you on ignore, as nobody with any nous could possibly believe what you just posted to be evidence to support your original point. I have to therefore assume that you are one of or a combination of a) not very bright b) not very experienced and / or c) a very poor troll.

Whichever it is, there is nothing to be gained from further interaction with you, so, goodbye. I'm out!
 

TrueJim

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I have to therefore assume that you are one of or a combination of a) not very bright b) not very experienced and / or c) a very poor troll...

...or possibly very young, pre-teen perhaps.

My takeaways so far from listening to Laplace have been:
  • General Choi was a self-aggrandizing attention-hound who shamefully changed his mind about...something...at some point, which is...disgraceful, or...something, because...reasons
  • Sine Wave-style Chang Hon is bad, because...reasons
  • Kukkiwon forms are bad, because...stances
  • Taekwondo is just thinly veiled shotokan
  • A lot of black belts aren't as good as Laplace when it comes to technique
  • We're all delusional for not seeing the truth of his claims
It's just style-bashing and people-bashing, on perpetual repeat.

On the other hand, I do learn a lot from reading posts by other folks here.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I am NOt a beginner by any reasonable definition. I have already stated repeatedly that there are black belts that cant kick. The fact that I can, doesnt mean I am good, compared to them, but in no way can I be concidered beginner level outside of mere technicalities related to belts.

Let me see if I can summarize what we have learned so far from Laplace_demon ...

Despite being a yellow belt, he is more skilled than the black belts at his school. Nevertheless, he doesn't intend to find a new school where the senior students can actually execute the techniques being taught.

He is an undergraduate philosophy major, which makes him the smartest person in the conversation. This is in discussions which include members who have graduate degrees and even an actual nuclear physicist.

He knows more about the history of TKD and how it was practiced in the 60s and 70s than the people who were actually practicing it in the 60s and 70s.

Despite not actually training Kukkiwon TKD, he knows more about what is taught in WTF dojangs than instructors who actually teach in Kukkiwon dojangs.

Despite not being a native English speaker, his English is better than that of those who speak it natively.

Despite never having boxed, he knows that various boxing world champions are/were lacking in skill and technique.

Despite being a yellow belt with only a short amount of training he cannot be considered a beginner. This is because great fighters are born and not made - like Anthony Pettis, who is clearly a champion just because of natural talent and not because he has been training continuously for 23 years.

Originally I thought this might just be a case of the Dunning-Kruger effect, but it's starting to test my credulity. I think we may need a new version of Poe's Law. Something like: without knowledge of the speaker's intent, it is impossible to distinguish between an extreme case of the Dunning-Kruger effect and a troll faking such a case to rile up an audience. We can call it Laplace's Law.
 

elder999

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...... and even an actual nuclear physicist.

That guy? Only time he's "the smartest in the room" is when he goes to the bathroom...
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I think we may need a new version of Poe's Law. Something like: without knowledge of the speaker's intent, it is impossible to distinguish between an extreme case of the Dunning-Kruger effect and a troll faking such a case to rile up an audience. We can call it Laplace's Law.

"Laplace's Law"...how ironic

Laplace's demon is a construct to articulate scientific or causal determinism, long made obsolete by the principles of irreversibility , quantum mechanics, chaos theory, and even the second law of thermodynamics...I like it, though-"Laplace's law..."
 
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