How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[Laplace_demon]

The different schools of Kwans instructed by korean Karate masters all went under the umbrella term Taekwondo in 1955 onwards. Tang Soo Do remained independent for political reasons.

My question is as follows: Was there a difference entering a taekwondo school pre ITF, outside of patterns and sparring for competition? Were there still an emphasis on kicking over striking? They still wore the Karate Gi in Taekwondo back then, and used shotokan patterns from what I understand

Were there any new fundamental techniques introduced in General Chois ITF, (outside of self defence techniques derived from Judo/jujitsu?)

I have trained several martial arts including ITF-TKD and Shotokan Karate, and only found the jumping backkicks and tornados to be missing from Shotokan. Basically it's the same art, technique wise.

Mae geri (front Kick)

Mawashi Geri (roundhouse) Knife hand strike (Shuto ).

Uke - (blocks),

Tsuki (closed fist strike). Everything from Shotokan. The "non sport" sparring/kumite is identical to Shotokan, as you you can see from 5:00 here:

The exact same for my three step sparring gradings in ITF.

 

[Transk53]

Nice first post. Welcome along.

 

[Dirty Dog]

First off, may I suggest that you consider heading over to the Meet & Greet forum and introducing yourself?

The different schools of Kwans instructed by korean Karate masters all went under the umbrella term Taekwondo in 1955 onwards. Tang Soo Do remained independent for political reasons.

Well... not quite. Not all of the Kwans ("schools of kwans" is incorrect, since it means "schools of schools") joined the unification movement. And the Moo Duk Kwan didn't 'remain independent', it joined the unification effort and then split off (with a minority of the Kwans senior students).

My question is as follows: Was there a difference entering a taekwondo school pre ITF, outside of patterns and sparring for competition? Were there still an emphasis on kicking over striking? They still wore the Karate Gi in Taekwondo back then, and used shotokan patterns from what I understand

You are mistaken in your belief that all the Kwans derived from Shotokan. They did not. The curriculum at each Kwan was different. One of the first challenges for the unification movement was developing a curriculum that would be accepted and taught by all the Kwans.

Were there any new fundamental techniques introduced in General Chois ITF, (outside of self defence techniques derived from Judo/jujitsu?)

I do not believe that there is any tradition of ITF techniques being derived from judo or jujutsu (note spelling). There are some hasinsool techniques thought to have been incorporated from hapkido, though.

 

[Laplace_demon]

First off, may I suggest that you consider heading over to the Meet & Greet forum and introducing yourself?



Well... not quite. Not all of the Kwans ("schools of kwans" is incorrect, since it means "schools of schools") joined the unification movement. And the Moo Duk Kwan didn't 'remain independent', it joined the unification effort and then split off (with a minority of the Kwans senior students).



You are mistaken in your belief that all the Kwans derived from Shotokan. They did not. The curriculum at each Kwan was different. One of the first challenges for the unification movement was developing a curriculum that would be accepted and taught by all the Kwans.

¨
Ok. But Shotokan influences are what remains of the umbrella term Taekwondo. No chinese kung fu techniques what so ever in ITF. Even if some of the kwans incorporated such arts, it was completely extinct by 1966. It is reported many, if not most of the kwans were shotokan masters, but not all.

This thread is about before 1966, though. I am curious why it took General Choi ten years to establish ITF, and their own patterns? What did he do in between?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Here are the 9 kwans joining the unification of Taekwondo : Nine Kwans - Taekwondo Wiki

Taekyon is, according to all reports, nowhere is to be seen in Taekwondo, nor is kung fu.

 

[Dirty Dog]

¨
Ok. But Shotokan influences are what remains of the umbrella term Taekwondo. No chinese kung fu techniques what so ever in ITF. Even if some of the kwans incorporated such arts, it was completely extinct by 1966. It is reported many, if not most of the kwans were shotokan masters, but not all.

The ITF is not an umbrella term. Taekwondo is an umbrella term that includes the ITF(s), as well as lots of other groups.
You specifically mentioned the Moo Duk Kwan in your OP. GM Hwang Kee specifically included the training he received in China as amoung the influences of the teaching of the Moo Duk Kwan.

¨
This thread is about before 1966, though. I am curious why it took General Choi ten years to establish ITF, and their own patterns? What did he do in between?

Well, to begin with, he was originally part of the unification movement, so there's no good reason to think he was developing seperate forms during that time period. After he split off and formed the ITF (and started developing his own forms), you sort of have to expect it to take some time to develop his own forms. It's not the sort of think that's going to spring, wholly formed, from ones forehead...

 

[Laplace_demon]

The ITF is not an umbrella term. Taekwondo is an umbrella term that includes the ITF(s), as well as lots of other groups.
You specifically mentioned the Moo Duk Kwan in your OP. GM Hwang Kee specifically included the training he received in China as amoung the influences of the teaching of the Moo Duk Kwan.



Well, to begin with, he was originally part of the unification movement, so there's no good reason to think he was developing seperate forms during that time period. After he split off and formed the ITF (and started developing his own forms), you sort of have to expect it to take some time to develop his own forms. It's not the sort of think that's going to spring, wholly formed, from ones forehead...

Tell me then, why no chinese movements are there and all techniques seen are from Shotokan. What a coincidence! I know chinese influences are seen in Tang Soo Do schools predating Taekwondo, but I am only interested in 1955 under the name Taekwondo.

Well, to begin with, he was originally part of the unification movement, so there's no good reason to think he was developing seperate forms during that time period. After he split off and formed the ITF (and started developing his own forms), you sort of have to expect it to take some time to develop his own forms. It's not the sort of think that's going to spring, wholly formed, from ones forehead...

Patterns are quite elementary, especially the beginner and intermediate ones. Not very advanced. Do you expect it to take 11 years to produce? I find that strange.

Do you happen to know if the style of Taekwondo changed with ITF, as opposed to before? I am interested for historic reasons, given that their karate gi changed.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Tell me then, why no chinese movements are there and all techniques seen are from Shotokan. What a coincidence! I know chinese influences are seen in Tang Soo Do schools predating Taekwondo, but I am only interested in 1955 under the name Taekwondo.

How is that you've determined that there were "no chinese movements" in the curriculum of all the Kwans of that time? How do you define a movement as "chinese" in the first place? Especially given that you (nor I) KNOW what the varied curriculums of the various Kwans were in 1955. You certainly can't make that determination by looking at the more modern forms taught today...

Patterns are quite elementary, especially the beginner and intermediate ones. Not very advanced. Do you expect it to take 11 years to produce? I find that strange.

I don't think they're as "elementary" as you seem to. I think there's a lot more in forms than many people realise.
Was 11 years too long? I don't know. I suspect that the General had other things to do from day to day (like, say, being an Ambassador) that might possibly have kept him from devoting all his time to developing poomsae.

Do you happen to know if the style of Taekwondo changed with ITF, as opposed to before? I am interested for historic reasons, given that their karate gi changed.

I don't think I understand the question, honestly. But it's clear that the various forms of TKD changed before the ITF, during the ITF, after the ITF, and continue to change today.

There are, incidentially, more than one style of dobak worn by various TKD systems.

 

[andyjeffries]

Ok. But Shotokan influences are what remains of the umbrella term Taekwondo. No chinese kung fu techniques what so ever in ITF. Even if some of the kwans incorporated such arts, it was completely extinct by 1966.

I would completely disagree with you. I'm from Changmookwan lineage and the founder of our school Grandmaster Yoon Byung-In learnt Kung-fu first and indeed spent his years learning Karate doing an exchange of skills with his Karate teacher Toyama Sensei; teaching Kung-fu and learning Karate.

The Chinese influences I would say are definitely prominent in the Kukkiwon Yudanja poomsae Cheonkwon (천권). If you watch this pattern (which is believed to have been developed as a nod to Changmookwan) you will see a lot more flowing movements than are normal in Taekwondo (and even less normal than Shotokan).

GM Yoon didn't even learn Shotokan, he learnt just "Karate" at the "Shudokan" dojo (Toyama Sensei always claimed that his form was not a style of Karate, it was just Karate. Toyama Sensei was believed to be senior to Funakoshi Sensei who did do his thing and went on to found Shotokan).

I personally have always found ITF Taekwon-do's execution to be much closer to Karate-style than Kukkiwon Taekwondo is. It feels to me like ITF is stuck in the 60s/70s in its execution/style whereas Kukkiwon Taekwondo has moved on since then. I would definitely also say that I agree with Dirty Dog that ITF isn't a good example of "umbrella Taekwondo", it's one very distinct style and as I state, one that doesn't seem to have moved on as much anyway.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The Chinese influences I would say are definitely prominent in the Kukkiwon Yudanja poomsae Cheonkwon (천권). If you watch this pattern (which is believed to have been developed as a nod to Changmookwan) you will see a lot more flowing movements than are normal in Taekwondo (and even less normal than Shotokan).

Another good example would be Plagwae 5. Tons of open hand techniques, very circular, very flowing. One of the definitions of the Gwae for Palgwae 5 is "Wind" and the student is encouraged to focus on flowing like wind.

Of course, both of these forms were developed after the unification of the Kwans. But those Chinese influences didn't just magically appear when the Palgwae forms were introduced (1967) or when the yudanja forms were introduced (I'd have to look that one up...).

 

[RTKDCMB]

It looked a bit like this:

And this:

 

[Tez3]

I did like that second video, I don't have sound so don't know if there was a commentary? Such a simple way to demonstrate, no frills or fancy bits. Gives a real sense of the style. Have things changed much or even at all?

 

[RTKDCMB]

I did like that second video, I don't have sound so don't know if there was a commentary? Such a simple way to demonstrate, no frills or fancy bits. Gives a real sense of the style. Have things changed much or even at all?

There was commentary in the second video.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

¨
It is reported many, if not most of the kwans were shotokan masters, but not all.

Welcome to the board. As pointed out by others, this is incorrect. First, none were Shotokan masters. You'll find that with one exception, none of the founders of the various Kwans held high Dan rank...if they had any Dan rank at all. This isn't to say they were inexperienced, but generally they either had very low Dan ranking or none at all. The one exception of which I'm aware was between 5th and 7th Dan in Shudokan.

Secondly, the founders of the various Kwans had a varied background. Some were Shotokan, others Shudokan, Shito Ryu etc. And a few had extensive Judo experience as well.

Thirdly, tracing it back we can see that most of the roads lead to Anko Itosu Sensei who taught Shuri Te which was the forerunner of Shotokan. And Chinese influence was merged with Okinawan Te in and prior to that era. So Shotokan of course has Chinese influence. Different names and such, but it is there.

My question is as follows: Was there a difference entering a taekwondo school pre ITF, outside of patterns and sparring for competition? Were there still an emphasis on kicking over striking? They still wore the Karate Gi in Taekwondo back then, and used shotokan patterns from what I understand

Of interesting note, some of this era also wore the diamond pattern top that is often associated with Hapkido. Han Mu Kwan is an example. The emphasis and kata differed from Kwan to Kwan. Both similarities and differences existed. One of the reasons for unification. Even the names of the arts prior to unification differed. Everything from Kong Soo Do to Kwon Bup to Tang Soo Do and so forth.

 

[Laplace_demon]

First of all, the pomsae

I
The Chinese influences I would say are definitely prominent in the Kukkiwon Yudanja poomsae Cheonkwon (천권). If you watch this pattern (which is believed to have been developed as a nod to Changmookwan) you will see a lot more flowing movements than are normal in Taekwondo (and even less normal than Shotokan).
.

WTF taekwondo and their pomsae, has nothing to do with Taekwondo before General Chois exile. WTF bares little resemblence to ITF, and encompasses different kicks and skill sets from ITF(precedors and off-shoot practioners of Taekwon-DO. It is not the same art.

The second video posted above is surely TKD from 1966---, given their Taekwondo Gis. The first one is indeed from the 50s. We have a winner!

 

[Laplace_demon]

I did like that second video, I don't have sound so don't know if there was a commentary? Such a simple way to demonstrate, no frills or fancy bits. Gives a real sense of the style. Have things changed much or even at all?

It is indeed the same as now. But how did 1955-1966 look, (throughly...)

/ITF martial artist.

 

[Dirty Dog]

First of all, the pomsae


WTF taekwondo and their pomsae, has nothing to do with Taekwondo before General Chois exile. WTF bares little resemblence to ITF, and encompasses different kicks and skill sets from ITF(precedors and off-shoot practioners of Taekwon-DO. It is not the same art.

Really? They're not the same art?
Wow... how did I earn Dan rankings in both ITF- and KKW-style Taekwondo (WTF is not a style, just FYI, it is a governing body for a sport) without noticing that?

 

[andyjeffries]

WTF taekwondo and their pomsae, has nothing to do with Taekwondo before General Chois exile. WTF bares little resemblence to ITF, and encompasses different kicks and skill sets from ITF(precedors and off-shoot practioners of Taekwon-DO. It is not the same art.

I agree, but you've been typing "Taekwondo" not "Taekwon-do" and referring to "umbrella", so I assumed you weren't talking specifically about only ITF Taekwon-do. You even said in your OP "The different schools of Kwans instructed by korean Karate masters all went under the umbrella term Taekwondo in 1955 onwards", referring to "Kwans" (meaning not just Ohdokwan), "umbrella" and "Taekwondo".

However, if you only want to discuss whether Chinese influences exist in any of the "ITF Taekwon-do" branches, then I'll leave you to have that debate with others as I've never practiced ITF Taekwon-do nor do I ever plan to.

 

[andyjeffries]

As pointed out by others, this is incorrect. First, none were Shotokan masters. You'll find that with one exception, none of the founders of the various Kwans held high Dan rank...if they had any Dan rank at all. This isn't to say they were inexperienced, but generally they either had very low Dan ranking or none at all. The one exception of which I'm aware was between 5th and 7th Dan in Shudokan.

I don't know if you're referring to GM Yoon of Changmookwan, but my recollecting from reading a lot about my kwan (without noting any references, so take this with a pinch of salt) was that he was 4th Dan in Shudokan. At that time though 5th Dan was the highest Dan attainable, so a 4th Dan should certainly considered master rank.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Really? They're not the same art?
Wow... how did I earn Dan rankings in both ITF- and KKW-style Taekwondo (WTF is not a style, just FYI, it is a governing body for a sport) without noticing that?

It's by definition a different style, having different patterns, and a different art, not employing shared techniques ( some are, some not).

Tell me the commonalites then, besides both using their feet (in WTFs case rarely punching).

The dobok - not the same.

Turning kick/ roundhouse in WTF, is NOT a Mawashi geri as in ITF and it's precedors.

Stance is different.

Punches are virtually non existent, outside of the pomsae.

Grading is up to 10 dan, while ITF is up to 9

WTF does not recognize an ITF black belt, as a black belt of Taekwondo.

Etc.