The different points of a martial artist.

[bMunky]

Well, my sensei was talking to us last class and she was explaining to us what her deffinition of a martial artist is. She says your not a martial artist till you practice all aspects of martial arts and then you become a martial artist and not just a judoka for example. But she said you need to have 6 points, movement, throws, joint locks, kick, punch and block, weapons, and balance and patience. Movement = Aikido, Throws = Judo/DZR and small circle Jujitsu, Joint Locks = DZR and small circle Jujitsu, punch kick block = karate, and balance and patience = yang and chen tai chi chuan, and weapons = aikido and karate. That was her path, and she has multiple degree black belts in each style and 26 year of tachign with professor wally jay. I'm in her DZR jujitsu class obviously heavily influenced by small circle jujitsu, and I really believe in what she said. And I ahve been pndering taking many other styles as in kung fu or capoeira, but now I want to find my 6 points. So to have all aspects of my martial arts training I decided to take have my sensei teach me aikido and tai chi along with my jujitsu class and then I'm gonna take a tae kwon do class for my kicking and punching so I'll have perfectly balanced otu training. I just wanted to know what you guys thought about this theory and the arts I'm choosing and what arts would you go about training in to reach all these points?

 

[stephen]

I just wanted to know what you guys thought about this theory and the arts I'm choosing and what arts would you go about training in to reach all these points?

Find a new teacher????

Really sounds a bit silly. Any one of those arts practiced ->correctly<- can teach all of those skills.

 

[bMunky]

Find a new teacher????

Really sounds a bit silly. Any one of those arts practiced ->correctly<- can teach all of those skills.

Um... I dont know what world you live in, but um... no. The last time I saw an aikido demestration I didnt see know punch combos or heavy kick combos, and I could of sworn the last time I was at a tae kwon do tournament I didnt see not one Ogoshi or Kote Shime or any katanas beign swung around. And every day I'm in my DZR Jujitsu class we dont take one strike (wally jay tought jujitsu with NO strikes, just how he taught). You get what I'm saying, not one martial art incorporates everything, that is besides bunjinkan of course in which I really dont want to take it as it's to expensive where I'm from and not my kinda thang. But You have your opinions even though you didnt really state anything to back up your opinion you still have yoru opinion and I really enjoy where I get my training and will stick with my sensei untill she can no longer teach.

 

[MJS]

Well, my sensei was talking to us last class and she was explaining to us what her deffinition of a martial artist is. She says your not a martial artist till you practice all aspects of martial arts and then you become a martial artist and not just a judoka for example. But she said you need to have 6 points, movement, throws, joint locks, kick, punch and block, weapons, and balance and patience. Movement = Aikido, Throws = Judo/DZR and small circle Jujitsu, Joint Locks = DZR and small circle Jujitsu, punch kick block = karate, and balance and patience = yang and chen tai chi chuan, and weapons = aikido and karate. That was her path, and she has multiple degree black belts in each style and 26 year of tachign with professor wally jay. I'm in her DZR jujitsu class obviously heavily influenced by small circle jujitsu, and I really believe in what she said. And I ahve been pndering taking many other styles as in kung fu or capoeira, but now I want to find my 6 points. So to have all aspects of my martial arts training I decided to take have my sensei teach me aikido and tai chi along with my jujitsu class and then I'm gonna take a tae kwon do class for my kicking and punching so I'll have perfectly balanced otu training. I just wanted to know what you guys thought about this theory and the arts I'm choosing and what arts would you go about training in to reach all these points?

It sounds to me as if your instructor is very much into crosstraining. Personally, I see nothing wrong with cross training or cross referencing, as its often called, but I do suggest that the student has a solid base art first, and then begin to look at other aspects.

I didn't begin to crosstrain until I was well into my Brown in Kenpo. It was at that time when I was first introduced to BJJ, and then Arnis.

As for being well rounded...that is something else I agree with. If the goal is SD, then being able to kick, punch, work from the clinch, weapons, and the ground are all areas that should be addressed.

The most important thing though, is take your time! There is no need to rush. Everyone is going to learn at his/her own pace and nobody should rush you.

Mike

 

[Gemini]

Well, you asked for opinions and stephan gave his. If you don't really want them, don't ask for them.

You mentioned that no single art teaches those aspects. In my mind, the only way you can make a broad statement like that is to be a master at each art. I would suggest you not summarize an art that you have little or no experience with.

Your teacher is giving the definition based on her experience and there's nothing wrong with that. My experience has taught me a different lesson, but then, I'm not big on cross-training. I have no problem with it, it's just not for me. IMO, to spend a few years in any art will do little more than give you a general overview of that art.

Over time, you will create your own definition based on your own experiences. The key is you are training, so you're on the right road regardless of where it takes you.

Best of luck to you.

 

[ed-swckf]

I would say there are plenty of complete martial arts out there, i study wing chun and it covers striking and blocking, movement, joint lock/manipulation, throws (well takedowns), weapons and balance/paitience. I'm sure many arts cover all these areas.

Personally i do incorperate other ideas into my traditional wing chun, i look at other arts and use ideas and concepts in a wing chun way. The reason i evolve it to fit in with the way wing chun works is i also agree with MJS, i have a base art on which i build, with no foundation cross training is building on nothing. One thing i am aware of with cross training is cherry picking certain priciples of arts, which work great within its own art but when you take it out and mix it with other arts it doesn't yeild the same effects. For instance, completely hypothetical, if you take the movement from aikido and mix it with the throws of judo they may not compliment each other well at all, however when training in a base art which is complete in movement, strikes, throws etc. you can take the principles of these other arts and utilise them within an already functioning form which is able to adapt to new ideas. Thats the way i see things.

 

[arnisador]

This is something I can't agree with. One art could indeed cover those areas; also, is a Thai boxer not a martial artist because they don't do weapons?

 

[CuongNhuka]

You’re right and wrong at the same time.

• Cross training in necessary: yes and no
  • Yes: it is a good way to learn about other styles and gain a greater understanding of martial arts over all.
  • No: no one any were said it is (I don’t know a lot of pro boxers that took up wrestling)
• Every one needs to be able to punch, kick, block, stand, move, yadda, yadda, yadda: yes and no
  • Yes: if you are looking for self defense, mostly yes
  • No: a judo competitor probably couldn’t give a rats you know what about how to kick in his/her major usage of his/her given art
• No one style contains every thing necessary to self-defense: NO!!!!!
  • Example one: Coung nhu is drawn form: Shotokan Karate-do (striking & weapons), Viet Vo Do Vovinam (striking & weapons), tai chi chuan (striking & weapons), Wing Chun Kung Fu (striking and weapons), western boxing (striking), Judo (grappling), Aikido (grappling &weapons)
  • Example two: every style has elements of every one of these. I’ll break down why (or how) later, I gotta go.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

 

[still learning]

Hello, Everyone will form there own opinion. Each of us will learn from many different people who will come into our lives. Yes we will believe our teachers and elders.

So don't be surprise from many differernt people with different answers.

I guess the POINT is to be well rounded? In the martial arts and well as life.

Can we specialize? Naturally we can. My son's Judo instructor only knows Judo.....but is very effective against any street fighter......5th degree and did train in Japan.

How many points do I get for these answers? 5? or 6? points.....Aloha

 

[Flatlander]

Surely, each and every one of us will find subtle differences in how we each define "martial artist", and what the necessary minimum skill set should be in order for one to call oneself a martial artist.

Personally, I prefer student of <insert your martial art here>.

It seems to me that there is no real reason for me to introduce or define myself as a "martial artist" anyway. I'm not doing this for recognition or prestige. So I don't really have a horse in this race, I suppose.

But to answer this question:

I just wanted to know what you guys thought about this theory and the arts I'm choosing and what arts would you go about training in to reach all these points?

I'd encourage you to check out FMA for your blunt and edged weapon requirements. See how that contrasts your karate skill set. Not saying one is better than the other, just that it's a different approach.

Truth is, I believe different people interface with different arts in different ways. One way may work better than another for you. There is no cookie cutter solution.

 

[rutherford]

One thing i am aware of with cross training is cherry picking certain priciples of arts, which work great within its own art but when you take it out and mix it with other arts it doesn't yeild the same effects. For instance, completely hypothetical, if you take the movement from aikido and mix it with the throws of judo they may not compliment each other well at all, however when training in a base art which is complete in movement, strikes, throws etc. you can take the principles of these other arts and utilise them within an already functioning form which is able to adapt to new ideas. Thats the way i see things.

Because it needed to be said again. Beware of imitating Frankenstein's monster with mismatched parts that don't function well together.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Ok. Now then about how different styles that don’t directly teach grappling do. First of all I’ll use a basic Shotokan kata. Taekiyou (I don’t think I’m spelling that right). The first move of the first form (it’s a set of 6) is turn to left into a deep well-rooted stance squared to your imagery opponent low block. The application is catching you opponent’s punch and defecting it off to your right and punching him/her in the ribs (for the load). And then stepping so your lead leg is behind your opponents and the block (as you twist your hips) and cast him/her over your lead leg. The same is done all through out the kata. And the same with all styles of martial arts, in some way, shape or form. Some times it is direct, some times not so much. But in martial arts, few things are truly obvious.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

 

[ed-swckf]

Because it needed to be said again. Beware of imitating Frankenstein's monster with mismatched parts that don't function well together.

Exactly, and not to mention Frankenstein really over complicated the idea of creating life and really missed all the fun of procreation to be left with a pretty shoddy end result!

 

[Andrew Green]

No, you don't have to do everything to be a martial artist.

It is good to try different things though, but I would add that it is also just as important to do them with different people. If you take 3 different systems from one person you are still only getting one perspective. Which I think defeats that theory of his.

That said, you follow your interests and don't worry about whether or not you meet someones definition, meet your own. Or is a sculpture not a artist until he paints? Does a carpenter not know his art until he learns electrical?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well, my sensei was talking to us last class and she was explaining to us what her deffinition of a martial artist is. She says your not a martial artist till you practice all aspects of martial arts and then you become a martial artist and not just a judoka for example.

I have to disagree with this, yet I have not talked to your Sensei, so maybe afterwards I would better understand her approach and philosophy.

But she said you need to have 6 points, movement, throws, joint locks, kick, punch and block, weapons, and balance and patience.

If an Art teaches defenses against weapons then does this not also address weapons?

Or does it require all weapons, including firearms, missiles, chemical and biological? Where is the line drawn?

1) Movement = Aikido,

Movement: For me Modern Arnis and Balintawak, both are FMA.

2) Throws = Judo/DZR and small circle Jujitsu,

Throws: For me Modern Arnis and Balintawak, both are FMA. (* To me though throws are just a large application of joint locks, including a foot sweep in the broadest since. *)

3) Joint Locks = DZR and small circle Jujitsu,

Joint Locks: For me Modern Arnis and Balintawak, both are FMA. (* To me though throws are just a large application of joint locks, including a foot sweep in the broadest since. *)

4) punch kick block = karate,

Punch Kick: For me Modern Arnis and Balintawak, both are FMA. Yet, neither of these do it to the degree of Karate or TKD or ..., .

So I am not a Martial artist?

5) and balance and patience = yang and chen tai chi chuan,

Movement: For me Modern Arnis and Balintawak, both are FMA.

6) and weapons = aikido and karate.

Weapons: For me Modern Arnis and Balintawak, both are FMA.

And none of the arts you mentioned covered weapons the way FMA does, so would I not then consider someone who does not train in a FMA for weapons not to be a Martial Artist?

Like I said I think it might a missunderstanding, and like others have said you need to cover the different ranges.

I have heard this covered in the range of:

Weapons - one and two handed - sometimes two weapons.
Kicking
Punching
Trapping - Elbows & Knees
Grappling - includes standing and on the ground grappling.

 

[jdinca]

Interesting thread. It wasn't what I expected it to be. What do I think are the different points of a martial artist?

Mind
Body
Spirit

The body, which is our MA techniques etc., is the easy part. The other two are the real challenge.

 

[Dalum]

Rich,
Definitely QFT! I was just starting to browse the beginning of this thread and thought I'd add a couple of cents worth of info. Many of the points you brought out are things I had in mind for my response.

Another question to pose is how many arts are covered by your instructor? Also, with this way of thinking, is there a style that can be considered as your core/primary style or would that cause too many issues with limiting yourself to that one style?

Not trying to come across as negative, I'm just trying to understand this standpoint.

 

[bMunky]

Rich,
Definitely QFT! I was just starting to browse the beginning of this thread and thought I'd add a couple of cents worth of info. Many of the points you brought out are things I had in mind for my response.

Another question to pose is how many arts are covered by your instructor? Also, with this way of thinking, is there a style that can be considered as your core/primary style or would that cause too many issues with limiting yourself to that one style?

Not trying to come across as negative, I'm just trying to understand this standpoint.

Well, my sensei teaches jujitsu, judo, karate, aikido, kabudo (japanese weapons), and yang tai chi chuan. She also has a class called bujitsudo where she teaches everything as one martial art but is based around jujitsu. I've decided to just stick with jujitsu and cross train in judo so I can do randori and learn the applications of a lot of the throws and takedowns I learn in jujitsu. But what I'm starting to realize is everyone ahs there own path and what path my sensei took may not be for me, but her philosophy is what I'll take with me and find my own points. For her, her points are through jujitsu, aikido, judo, karate, and tai chi in which it all comes out in her bujitsudo class.

 

[terryl965]

I guess I would have to dis-agree one Art can deliver a quality since of accomplimence to one journey, if you are going from art to art you have not been fulfilled by the art you choosen before. I believe in cross training for the mases but not to find enlightment.
terry

 

[arnisador]

You can do pretty well by becoming an expert in one strategy rather than a jack-of-all-trades!